Denis Morissette pointed out on FB these two videos of Jimmy Darnell being interviewed and filmed while in the basement of KXAS. The videos have been recently released via the UNT site and are from the WBAP later to become KXAS and these days known as NBC5.
In the first clip you can see Darnell looking at a strip of 16MM film on a reel, this strip is of the front of the T.S.B.D. segment. Now this may not even be his film, but Dave Wiegman’s instead. I am simply amazed that he is looking at this film, which supposedly disappeared into NBC’s archives in N.Y. Yet here we are looking at an original or a very good copy of it.
This is the film no one knows where it is, by the looks of it from this segment and the next the copy they have digitised for these videos looks of great quality. Question is at what resolution did they digitise the film? And where is it now?
Click to enlarge.
In the second clip (skip to 01:05) Darnell is doing narration of him running ‘this is where I bail’, but the Wiegman film is on the monitor and more importantly Dave Wiegman ran on the pavement on the right side of Elm St. whereas Jimmy Darnell ran on the grassy left side of Elm where he eventually filmed as the press buss passed in front of him.
Jimmy Darnell, on the far left, after he got out of Camera Car 3.
Jimmy Darnell in Wilma Bond 5 filming while the press bus passes in front of him. Click to enlarge.
Take a good look at this video compilation of Darnell footage by Denis Morissette and you will see that he is on the left side of Elm.
Wiegman was in Cam Car 1, whereas Darnell was in Cam Car 3. His footage is roughly 10-15 seconds after Wiegman shot his segment of the front of the T.S.B.D.
Both these two segments are odd as NBC5 used the Wiegman film assuming it was Darnell’s. But more importantly NBC5 had a 16MM copy of the Wiegman film!
Today I came across an article that I had read about when I read “Into The Nightmare” by Joe McBride. The article in question is called: The other Witnesses by George and Patricia Nash for the The New Leader in 1964 (pages 105 – 109). This article largely looks into the Tippit murder and points out other witnesses which were never properly interviewed nor brought forward. In this article at the end the second floor lunch room encounter is brought up as well and more importantly that Bill Shelley told them that Truly and Baker entered the T.S.B.D. five or six minutes after the shooting. This of course destroys the W.C. timings once again, which were set at 75-90 seconds and of course Oswald’ departure in 3 minutes after the deed.
I’d love to see George and Patricia Nash’s archives.
I expect this article will be amended in the near future. Since I have a paper coming out soon I needed a referral article to start off with.
Oswald’s shirt at the 6th Floor Museum. Click to enlarge. Screen grab B.K.
Lee Oswald would wear a shirt on his way to and from the Texas School Book Depository and be working in his T-shirt inside the building. He was captured inside the Texas Theater wearing a brownish shirt and after the scuffle inside, his arrest and ride to City Hall he can be seen with this shirt hanging of one shoulder entering City Hall’s third floor.
In this post we will have a look at that brown shirt he wore on the 22nd. The shirt he allegedly changed into after a bus & cab ride to his rooming house after having ‘escaped’ from the T.S.B.D.
Oswald is seen wearing this shirt for the whole duration of the 22nd. Only just after the midnight press conference is he asked to hand it over. F.B.I. Special Agent Vince Drain eventually takes possession and flies with it and the rest of the evidence overnight to Washington for the F.B.I. to analyse it.
Lee Oswald was allowed to wear his own clothes for the day. Whereas Jack Ruby was put in a white uniform quite quickly after murdering Oswald.
Vincent Drain’s trip from Dallas to Washington with the assassination evidence. Click to enlarge.
Several people, who had seen or interacted with Oswald at various times that day were asked whether they recognised this shirt as the garment Oswald was wearing on the 22nd. And by going through the statements of them we get the following:
Oswald’s shirt. Click to enlarge.
Here are their statements just regarding that particular shirt.
Oswald’s shirt. CE 150. Click to enlarge.
From that whole group of statements is one important person missing, and that is Marrion Lewis Baker, who allegedly encountered Oswald in the second floor lunch room, which we know is complete and utter rubbish. Let’s study his W.C. testimony.
Mr. BELIN – Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER – At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
Mr. BELIN – Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came.I wouldn’t be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Mr. BELIN – What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER – I couldn’t say whether that was–it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn’t say it was that or not.
Mr. DULLES – Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn’t quite hear.
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN – Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER – Well, it would be similar in color to it–I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn’t really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn’t pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. BELIN – Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN – Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER – He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN – Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER – I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little coloured jacket, that is all I can say.
Baker’s testimony is very telling and one can only draw the conclusion that he did not see him at the T.S.B.D. why wouldn’t any copper not know what a possible suspect wore after an encounter as such. This is basic stuff for any law enforcement officer to notice and memorise.
Captain Will Fritz made mention of two changes of Oswald’s ‘escape’. The first one was the inclusion of a cab ride as he left the bus prematurely, which he did in his interrogation notes from the Nov. 23rd morning session, and the second one as described, in the document of Dec. 4th below, that Oswald not just changed his shirt, but all his clothing. Which he did not, he did not change his T-shirt! Which is a strange thing, change your shirt but not the T-shirt after having worked in it that morning.
Will Fritz FBI Report by Vincent Drain. Click to enlarge.
Lee Oswald’s bus and cab ride can be doubted for several reasons. Ed Ledoux initiated a great thread about this at Reopen Kennedy Case Forums . I added various pieces of evidence to this thread and it is more than likely that this escape from the T.S.B.D. did not happen at all.
Roger Craig noticed someone looking like Oswald coming down the hill in front of the T.S.B.D. and getting into a Nash Rambler at about 12:42. Craig ID-ed Oswald as the man inside Fritz’s office later that afternoon. All this was reported in the Dallas Times Herald on the morning of the 23rd.
The bus ticket was only found on Oswald when he was frisked again just before his first line-up. Why would Oswald take this transfer with him while going into the Texas Theatre? Bus driver McWaters, co-passenger Julia Bledsoe and cab driver William Whaley can be doubted to a high degree speaking the truth.
Oswald’s shirt is photographed in great detail for the Shaneyfelt exhibition. Named after Lynda L. Shaneyfelt who is a special agent for the FBI in the laboratory. I am showing two of the photographs that are cropped on to the shirt. Compare the pix and see that this is not Lee Oswald. These and the others can be seen at the Mary Ferrell website (pgs 467-470).
Oswald’s shirt for the Shaneyfelt exhibition. Source: Mary Ferrell. Click pic to enlarge.
Oswald being charged with the murder of JFK as part of a communist conspiracy.
Updated Dec 14th 2019.
While putting together my up and coming paper Anatomy Of Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations I came across documents that could not be used inside that paper. But the quality of these documents meant that it would not be wise to ignore them.
Bill Alexander is about to charge Lee Oswald with murder of The President with malice and forethought and as part of a communist conspiracy. This latter part sets off alarm bells not just in Washington, and the higher echelon of the Texas legislature, but also the F.B.I. who make mention of this in a memo from Nov. 22nd by Kyle G. Clark.
Ronald Duggar, editor of the Texas Observer, has done an interview with Bill Alexander in Sept. 1973 and notes that Alexander said that he put out the story that Oswald was a communist to offset any talk of Oswald being a right-winger.
Ronald Duggar interview with Bill Alexander. Click to enlarge.
In an interview from Nov 3rd 1975 Alexander gets more specific, how he got about spreading the message and how it got back to him.
Bill Alexander interview Nov 3 1975. Click to enlarge.
Earl Golz documents Michael Eddowes Nov 22 book and brings up Alexander’s communist conspiracy part.
Earl Golz – Michael Eddowes – Bill Alexander
Earl Golz – Michael Eddowes – Bill Alexander
Earl Golz – Michael Eddowes – Bill Alexander
Earl Golz – Michael Eddowes – Bill Alexander
In William Manchester’s notes of the interviews for his book “Death Of A President” Barefoot Sanders gives his version of what Bill Alexander is about to pull off.
Barefoot Sanders interviewed by William Manchester on the Oswald charge as part of a communist conspiracy. Click to enlarge.
Justice of the Peace David Johnston, seen inside room 317 gets his piece of the ‘conspiracy’ pie as well. As shown below the photos, in Earl Golz’s handwritten notes from Nov. 1975 of his interview with Johnston. In that interview Johnston even includes James K. Allen as one of the originators of the commie conspiracy yak yak (his words) besides Bill Alexander. James Allen is a rather secretive figure. He was a great friend of Will Fritz and in close vicinity to Room 317.
Johnston on the right(red arrow). In the middle Jim Hosty talks to William Alexander. Photo: William Murray-Back Star. Scan by ROKC from the Richard E. Sprague archives at the National Archives in Wa. Click to enlarge.
Will Fritz talks to the press, behind him is Bill Alexander and Johnston (red arrow) listens carefully. Photo: William Murray-Back Star. Scan by ROKC from the Richard E. Sprague archives at the National Archives in Wa. Click to enlarge.
Johnston was very close to what was going on that day. He also was very close when Henry Wade gave his press conference after Oswald’s.
David Johnston during Henry Wade’s press conference early in the morning of Nov 23rd. Pic: FWST. Click to enlarge.
David Johnston interview notes by Earl Golz
David Johnston interview notes by Earl Golz
David Johnston interview notes by Earl Golz
David Johnston interview notes by Earl Golz
David Johnston interview notes by Earl Golz
David Johnston interview notes by Earl Golz
Waggoner Carr standing, next to Governor John Connally. Pic. UNT. Click to enlarge.
Then there is Waggoner Carr, and he puts a slight different spin on the story, but he had no idea what Barefoot Sanders was doing at the same time.
Interview with Waggoner Carr
Interview with Waggoner Carr
Interview with Waggoner Carr
Then finally off course the Dallas D.A. Henry Wade, who while being interviewed by Melissa Johnson in Jan 1993. Confirms he was called by Cliff Carter
Henry Wade interview summary by Melissa Johnson Jan 1993. From the Livingstone Archive. Click to enlarge.
I got a call from Cliff Carter at the White House, Cliff Carter was a friend of mine who worked with President Johnson. It had apparently come over television that Oswald was going to be charged as part of a conspiracy with the Russians in killing President John F. Kennedy. He said the president was afraid that would hurt international relations quite a bit with Russia. I told him that everything you allege in an indictment you’ve got to prove, and if you allege a conspiracy, you’re going to have to prove it. This appears to be more a conspiracy, if with any foreign country, with Cuba, because he (Oswald) had loads and loads of propaganda from the committee to support (Fidel) Castro. . . . Cliff Carter was an aide to Johnson. I knew him personally and I knew Johnson personally. I worked in his (Lyndon Johnson’s) campaign in 1937 in Austin when I was in college, and he got elected to Congress. Q: Did you, at that point, take a different attitude toward the assassination picture? You knew this was one of his top aides. A: The only thing he was afraid of was that we would file he was part of a Russian conspiracy to kill President Kennedy. I told him that wouldn’t be done. Then I got a second call, that the president wants you to go down and make sure this conspiracy count is not in the indictment, because the press has already said it’s in there. I went down to the homicide division of the Dallas police. I guess there were 300 or 400 members of the press down there with cameras, and it was a madhouse down there.
This year I have spent countless hours on gathering, scanning and organising many thousands of pages of documents from a few archives. This H.S.C.A. material of thirteen D.P.D. personnel comes from the Malcolm Blunt archives and there are a few bits that provide some little interesting bits of information with regards the assassination, the aftermath, the searches and the happenings inside City Hall.
See for yourself.
With thanks to Malcolm Blunt.
Woodrow Wiggins in charge of the jail on Sunday Nov 24th.
This is a rewritten and updated version from the original post published on Feb. 26 2019.
Updated with text and links added on Dec 30 2022, Jan 20 & 27 2023.
*****
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for some of the A.R.R.B., H.S.C.A. and F.B.I. documents. And thanks to Jessica Shores for some assistance by providing me some newspaper articles and info on Henry Hurt. I also would like to thank Grover Proctor for acknowledging my work at his 2019 presentation in Dallas. This article main findings will be included with my book from 2023, in a much more abbreviated version. This web article contains every item of evidence in my possession here or linked to.
While working on the Oswald interrogations I kept thinking of including The Raleigh Call research by Grover Proctor and others into my first release in Sep. 2017. But I decided against it, as something did not feel right. That all important niggle, yet not knowing where that niggle came from at that time or what it entailed so I kept it on the back burner for 18 months, until I had decided to change the entire paper over in a timeline setting and decided to look deeper into it.
So what is it about the Raleigh Call?
The history of the Raleigh Call is written up by Randy Benson quite recently at Indyweek. I’ll quote from it: “It was through the work of independent researcher Michael Canfield that a copy(!) of the Raleigh Call slip first became public. He secured a copy of the slip, which became available as the result of a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed by a civil rights activist Chicago researcher Sherman H. Skolnick, while conducting research for the 1975 book Coup d’Etat in America. The book, co-authored with Alan Weberman, was the first major work to deal with the Raleigh Call, and the slip was reprinted in the appendix.” Anthony Summers’ 1980 book release Conspiracy made a brief mention about the call as well. But it was dropped when an updated version was released. Summers confided to G Robert Blakey of the HSCA that he doubted the call ever happened at all. From thereon Grover Proctor picked up on it and did his research for years to come. His site is filled with a lot of documentation to study for those interested in this subject.
The Raleigh call, allegedly, happens late in the evening of Saturday the 23rd of Nov. between 22:15 – 22:45. That actual evening of the 23rd after 21:00 hrs of Oswald’s detention is not very well documented with anything happening at all. I know this as I decided to put Oswald’s incarceration that weekend in a timeline manner together for my paper and now for my book.
I do not believe that Oswald made a call to Raleigh, nor spoke with John David Hurt. There is simply too much wrong with it. By just going through the batch of statements on Proctor’s page there are already quite a few inconsistencies and memory lapses to be noted. In this updated and revised article I can safely say that the alleged Raleigh call is just a horrible conspiracy theory that deserves to die a death as it has been kept alive for far too long.
One of the first things I did was to investigate if there were any records in the Dallas Police Department archives at the University of Texas. There are reports made from the three earlier phone calls Oswald made that day. The first phone call by Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd is recorded by the jailer Arthur E Eaves and is at about 13:40 which is just short of 24 hours after his arrest! Oswald has been returned to his cell after another interrogation by Will Fritz in the morning and sees Marina shortly after this session and is then brought back to his jail cell from where he uses the phone. This looks like Oswald’s very first attempt to call John Abt. Oswald then makes a call to Ruth Paine, at 16:00, trying to get hold of Marina. See the affidavit below of J.E. Popplewell & second affidavit. I go into depth about this specific call to Ruth Paine in my interrogations paper. Then he also makes a 30 minute call at 20:00 in Thurber T. Lord‘s statement. Oswald was making these calls unhindered. Compare these reports with the subject matter at hand then other than an alleged slip, which is a rather poor photocopy, there is not much physically present to support this Raleigh Call coming from Oswald claim.
Will Fritz, in an Outside Contact Report for the HSCA on Apr 20 1978, believes it did not happen since. But he believes the jail records would show who Oswald called and at what time. And these jail records do not reflect a call from Oswald to Raleigh while being incarcerated at the DPD.
The first time the Raleigh Call story was brought up, was in 1965 when Winston Smith, who during his H.S.C.A. interview on Dec 4th 1978, states that he had heard the story after moving the Treons out of Dallas to Springfield that year. He doesn’t remember when exactly, only during a dinner, he was told the story. And during that conversation Alveeta Treon produced the call slip.
The next trace is an unsigned affidavit, from 1968, of Alveeta Treon, which probably was taken during the Garrison investigation. I suggest you click that link to Proctor’s site to see the full story behind this. During the HSCA, on Aug 4 1977, Jim Kostman writes to Donovan Gay and brings up the Raleigh call. This is largely in relation to Alveeta Treon’s first, unsigned, affidavit and Winston Smith, who did assist the Garrison investigation around the time of the making of that affidavit in 1968.
In her HSCA interview of Nov 7th 1978 Alveeta Treon says: Mrs. Treon said that it has concerned her from conversations with Committee investigator Harold Rose that we might not have completely correct information. She said the sequence at the switchboard was that when Oswald came on, both she and Louise Swinney got on the line to take the call. She said, however, it was clear that Mrs. Swinney intended to handle it, as though she had instructions, so Mrs. Treon let her handle it, but Mrs. Treon stayed on the line. She said she was therefore able to hear everything Oswald said and she is sure he asked for the name John Hurt and gave the two numbers. She said that as she listened she wrote the information down on a regular telephone call slip. However, since Mrs. Swinney actually handled the call, Mrs. Treon signed her name to the slip she intended to keep as a souvenir. She said the notations on the slip of “DA” and “CA” stand for did not answer and cancelled, because the call was never actually put through. Mrs. Treon said she never retrieved any paper from the wastebasket on which Mrs. Swinney supposedly entered the information.
Mrs. Treon said her lasting impression of the events that night is that Mrs. Swinney had been instructed by someone to not put the call through to Oswald. She said her belief was strengthened by the fact that Mrs. Swinney did not leave work as soon as Mrs. Treon came on that night as she usually did. Instead she remained as though she had been assigned to handle the call. In that same interview Mrs. Treon said she also intended to tell Harold Rose of the HSCA that her daughter Sharon thought she recognized one of the men who came into the telephone room when Oswald tried to make his call. She said Sharon thought the man might have been one of the officers who was with Oswald just before he was shot in the basement; she thought it was the one who was handcuffed to him. Which can only be Jim Leavelle or L.C. Graves.
Louise Swinney in her interview with the HSCA on Feb 6th 1978 remembers that Oswald tried to make two calls. One to “Lawyer Apt.” [sic.] in New York and she doesn’t remember who the other call was to. The name John Hunt [sic.] is not familiar to her. She is forewarned, at about 19:00 hrs, that if Oswald was going to make any calls that two DPD detectives would drop by and tap in on the line. There is just one small thing that doesn’t sit right with this scenario, and that is that she is being told about this one hour before Oswald made a call at 20:00 (see the Thurber T. Lord report above) and this call went through for 30 minutes without a glitch!
She stated that she did not put either call through for Oswald. Why not? And who ordered her to do this? The detectives left after they got the numbers. She states that she wrote the numbers on a blue piece of paper and she believes she may still have it at home. She will try to find it for the HSCA, but a follow-up on this does not materialise. She remembers Alveeta Treon well, but does not recall if they worked together on the night of 11/23/63.
Then on April 20th in an HSCA outside contact report (see below) things get better when the slip gets into play: I showed Louise Swinney, a Xerox copy of the slip containing information on a phone call placed by Lee Harvey Oswald to John Hurt, Raleigh, N.C. on November 23, 1963 and bearing her signature. She stated that it was definitely [ sic. ] not her signature. She was upset that someone had signed her name. She stated that she never handled a call from Oswald to John Hurt. She stated that she only handled a call from Oswald to Lawyer Apt [ sic. ] and another one that she cannot remember, but it was not to John Hurt. Mrs. Swinney insisted on giving me samples of her handwriting and told me that she would have no reason to lie. She stated that only someone working in the switchboard room could have made that out and Alveeta Treon [ sic. ] was the only other person working that night.
The statements by these two women by itself should have been enough to question the truthfulness of this story right there and then. But let’s get Alveeta Treon’s daughter involved to turn this whole thing in an even bigger mess! Sharon Kovac, contradicts matters compared with Louise Swinney and her mom Alveeta Treon in her HSCA statement from Dec. 6 1978 even more: Ms. Kovac said she cannot recall anyone else being present in the switchboard room that night besides herself and her mother. She said she knows Louise Swinney, her mother’s supervisor, but she does not recall Mrs. Swinney being present at the time. She said when Oswald called in, it is her recollection that her mother handled the call and she remembers seeing her mother open her key on the switchboard at the time of the call.
With regards to IDing the two detectives who were there to prohibit the call from going through. In the Dec. 6 1978 statement by Sharon Kovac: She said that on Sunday, November 24, 1963 when Oswald was shot in the Dallas Police Department basement, Lt. Leavelle, the man to whom Oswald was hand cuffed at the time of the shooting “resembled” one of the men who had come into the switchboard room on November 23, but she does not believe it was Lt. Leavelle. Which in all honesty doesn’t give us anything as to who these two detectives actually were. Nor is there any follow up investigation regarding this, no pictures shown, nothing.
So Alveeta Treon has one version of the story, her daughter contradicts this, and Louise Swinney her supervisor contradicts both their stories.
There are a few newspaper reports on John Hurt and the alleged Raleigh Call on July 17 1980 as well.
Rocky Mount Telegram July 17 1980
The Charlotte News July 17 1980
The News & Observer July 17 1980
The News & Observer July 17 1980
If we then look at the FBI report from Feb. 3 1964 that lists the phone numbers Oswald had written down on a piece of paper and that was found on him after he was shot. You can conclude that there is no Raleigh phone number indicating the call to John Hurt, the note does contain phone numbers of John Abt and Ruth Paine. This is again confirmed three days later on Feb 6 1964.
FBI Oswald Phone Numbers Feb 3 1964
FBI Oswald Phone Numbers Feb 3 1964
FBI Oswald Phone Numbers Feb 6 1964
FBI Oswald Phone Numbers Feb 6 1964
Henry Hurt (no relation) speaks to John David Hurt’s wife after he has passed away in 1981. In his book Reasonable Doubt he states: a few months later, his wife told the author that Hurt had admitted the truth before he died. Terribly upset on the day of the assassination, he got extremely drunk—a habitual problem with him—and telephoned the Dallas jail and asked to speak to Oswald. When denied access, he left his name and number. Mrs. Hurt said her husband told her he never had any earlier contact with Oswald and had been too embarrassed to admit that he got drunk and placed the call.
The ARRB discusses the Hurt matter as well. In an email from Jan 7 1997, Christopher Barger indicates that they will not be able to determine anything further because Hurt is dead and that the HSCA files seem to be of very little value. That last part is very strange since a simple comparison of the HSCA statements of John Hurt, Alveeta Treon, Louise Swinney and Sharon Kovac add a lot of doubt to any validity of the alleged phone call. And yet this email states that there is no dispute that Oswald attempted to call that number.
I have taken all the key bits from the available documents and transferred these into a spread sheet of which I post a screen shot below.
Click pic to enlarge.
So what do I think?
Louise Swinney, Alveeta Treon and Sharon Kovac contradict each other to such an extend that there are very few areas of agreement of the Raleigh call actually happening.
Louise Swinney is forewarned at 19:00 about two detectives who would want to listen in to any call of Oswald she would handle. When she does handle the call between 22:30 – 23:00 she does not connect the call and states to Oswald she cannot get an answer on the other end of the line. Yet Oswald makes a call at 20:00, which must have been during Swinney’s shift for about 30 minutes unhindered.
All other calls by Oswald were reported by the jailers, there is no such report present when Oswald allegedly made that call.
There is not a single trace of the original calling card.
Louise Swinney denies it is her signature on the calling card.
Sharon Kovac was not there, at the time of the so called call, she heard it from Alveeta Treon at a later time.
On the piece of paper found on Oswald, after he has been murdered by Jack Ruby, were several numbers, yet not one refers to John Hurt let alone anyone in Raleigh.
John Hurt was not called, it is possible he did try to call the DPD while being intoxicated, and if he did then his call would have been tossed into the “crazies wastepaper basket” along with several others and that slip happened to be fished out of the waste paper basket.
Some conspiracy theorists have made a mess as there is no connection between John David Hurt and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Some photos and text has been added and amended. Feb. 22nd 2019.
In June and July of 2018 the core ROKC members were discussing amongst themselves whether to get in contact with Marina Oswald and ask her what she thought of the whole Prayer Man situation. We agreed to put it forward to her, nothing ventured nothing gained right?
Stan Dane printed one of the better shots of the Wiegman and Darnell films alongside a picture of the book cover and sent these enlargements to her. No photo of Doorway man (a.k.a. Billy Lovelady) was sent to her at any time. Stan did not receive a reply so Ed Ledoux rang her and left a message on her answer machine not expecting to hear back from her. But less than 25 minutes later she rang back. He asked her whether she had received the images and she said she had.
Prayer Man enlargements sent to Marina Oswald. Pic. Stan Dane.
Out Of The Shadows Into The Light Prayer Man book cover. Pic. Stan Dane.
What follows is Ed Ledoux’s story abut this particular phone call:
I wanted Marina Oswald to tell me about that figure seen in the Darnell and Wiegman films Stan Dane had sent to her, a figure who was standing in the dark shadowy top left corner, one whom was labelled Figure J. in drawings by Richard Bernabei.
Occupants front steps of the T.S.B.D. by Richard Bernabei. Click pic. to enlarge.
I felt the need to explain everything first, as she immediately asked what this was all about and began to tell all the details as best as I could relate quickly to her about Weigman and Darnell, the steps, our research and that of others.
Sketch of Prayer Man and Bill Shelley on the front steps of the T.S.B.D. by Richard Bernabei. Click pic. to enlarge.
Sketch of Prayer Man, Billy Lovelady, Otis Williams and Bill Shelley on the front steps of the T.S.B.D. by Richard Bernabei. Click pic. to enlarge.
When I was about to mention Richard Bernabei’s annotated sketches of Weigman from the late 60’s, which were not sent to her, with the unknown figure marked J. she stopped me.
Marina interjected and said “That’s Lee” I was taken aback as she knew exactly what and who I had asked about. She volunteered her answer. I exclaimed “What?” to make sure I had heard her correctly. And she replied to me “It’s Lee.” and did so as quite a matter of fact.
There I was thinking, here is the one person besides Marguerite Oswald whom would know the likeness of Lee better than any armchair detective or internet warrior could. Here she was confirming the identity of her husband and in effect the work done by Sean Murphy until the 50th anniversary of the murder, and now carried on by the ROKC crew as a litmus test in the Kennedy assassination.
When I asked Marina about the images of Prayer Man to Lee she said, “Yes, seen it many times” like it was old news.
Well I was dazzled by her quick wit and retorts. She is no slouch when it comes to her late husband and the case.
She said “They have dropped the assumed part, and just say he is guilty” so I explained the FBI and Justice Dept. have both closed the case and retroactively declared Lee guilty.
I asked if she knew of a way to help and she understood the problem.
She wanted to know my age, she sharing hers first like a lady. I shared mine and she said “Good, you’re young enough to get something done.”
I told her about the book, “Prayer Man, Out Of The Shadows And Into The Light” by Stan Dane.
Marina asked when it was published. I said it has been out three and a half years.
When I told her what information it had about documenting Lee on the first floor and in the vestibule, she responded resolutely, “I don’t need to be convinced.”
Marina was kind and soft spoken, wanted me to help her children who suffer the most by having a father wrongfully called a murderer. No jury, no trial, no full investigation, yet the United States legal system allows this.
As Marina Oswald called me back in such a short time after I had left a message I did not record this call. But I did call her back again two weeks later, this was after I sent her Stan Dane’s book and asked her to give me her blessing to what she had said to me two weeks prior. In this conversation she stated that she had not read the Stan Dane book, as there were too many characters involved and that all they had to do is compare two faces; Lee and Billy Lovelady. The rest didn’t matter. Listen to the short recording below.
NBC Universal holds the original footage of Darnell and Wiegman from that day in 1963 when The President, John F. Kennedy, was murdered.
These original 16 mm films contain much better detail than the circulating ones. The copies that are around were transferred to 3/4 inch VHS tape nearly 60 years ago and are overall not very clear due to the generational gap and the artefacts it inherited due to the transfer.
Poor quality images allow the weak and timid to say it might be Lee or dispute it, and until better images they retort that they can’t agree it is Oswald, until its shown and proven to be Lee.
Thus the Prayer Man litmus test has enabled ROKC to sample those researchers genuinely looking to end all debate as to Lee’s innocence.
The naysayers dismiss with a wave of the hand the literal mountains of physical and documented evidence that puts Lee on the first floor during the assassination and outside during the shooting.
Naysayers accomplish this by saying the images taken from the films are to blurry.
Blurry yes, but good enough for them to identify Buell Frazier, and Billy Lovelady without second guesses.
I have spoken with Buell Frazier and I got the sense he recognises the figure but cannot allow himself to say what Marina effortlessly stated. “It’s Lee.”
Buell has identified himself in the films.
Buell Frazier in Darnell.
He has said he thought the figure near him called Prayer Man is Bill Shelley, Buell may default to Bill but he also realises Bill left the steps with Billy Lovelady to walk down to the rail yard and knoll area. Buell cant reconcile the figure with the logistics of those present.
I want to show Buell a better image too.
Slowly these things help to settle this important matter. Just over a week ago Bart managed to show a note made by FBI agent James Hosty which clearly stated that “He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch P. parade.”
This document and the Fritz interrogation notes show that Lee himself is giving his alibi to the police and knowing that Bill Shelley was there with him, only for police authorities to twist things and use it against him.
Lee said he stepped out to see what all the excitement was about as reported by Detective Ed Hicks.
Reporters were documenting this statement.
In his interview shortly before Lee was murdered by Jack Ruby, Postal Inspector Harry Holmes asked about Lee’s alibi.
Specifically that Lee was in the Vestibule or nearing the vestibule when the shooting took place. There is only one vestibule proper. It is between the two outer columns flanking the steps, up to the front door.
That is in part Oswald’s alibi, being out in the vestibule and knowing who else was on the steps.
I wanted to see the best images of those steps and who was in the vestibule and asked for and was granted a license for the Darnell film. Additionally I made an offer to transfer Darnell into 4k or 8k resolution, using the vendor of their choice to perform the scan and at my cost, but I was soon told that the powers that be had denied access to the film.
Rather than provide me the best quality image available NBC asked that I use a high quality format but media that was from a 3/4″ tape circa 1970’s era.
I declined to accept this paltry material.
I thank the folks who helped with the project, especially Bart Kamp, Greg Parker, and Stan Dane who have searched for the original films with me.
Thanks to the fine folks at ROKC I knew beyond a shadow that Lee was Prayer Man and I continued based on evidence that the films were in New York at the NBC ‘archives’ there.
The films are still awaiting a new Executive to allow access to study them.
Greg Parker has sent a public letter asking NBC Universal for the films to be accessed by researchers and students.
We are still waiting their reply.
Thanks to Marina I realised the truth has just begun.
Marina asked me about the films timing, she said it’s important. I explained that the limo is still seen exiting Dealey Plaza in the Dave Wiegman film, which syncs up with Wiegman and then Darnell, so its a matter of seconds.
Marina said that makes Lee innocent.
I agreed,…
I’ve spoke to Marina a few more times to update her on the Prayer Man project and various aspects of the case. I am going to tell her about the Sixth Floor Museums donation they received of a 2k copy of Darnell.
Alan Dale asked Stephen Fagin at the Lancer conference about the film and Fagin told that it can be viewed in the museum’s viewing room, but there is no zooming or slowing the playback there unfortunately.
I had mentioned to her that I would find better footage, as she was not positive NBC would ever allow access. So we are hopeful to have more to discuss in the future.
As I have mentioned before on the Prayer Man FB page I have been quite busy with putting a new website together for Dealey Plaza UK. Part of that website was trying to put some archives in there as well. It started with the Harold Rydberg materials, but shortly after I was asked to do the Harry Livingstone archives, or part of that as well. Malcolm Blunt asked me to do this to which I readily agreed. The work is still ongoing and means less online appearances unless there is something worthwhile to make mention of.
This research then also led to me digitising parts of Malcolm Blunt’s old Dallas collection. Malcolm does a lot of deep agency research and the Dallas material is from the period before that when he stayed in Dallas and in Washington in the 90’s.
So here I will show you a note made by Jim Hosty no one else has seen before or even bothered to share or simply overlooked it . It comes from the National Archives and it was Malcolm who found it. Who else as hardly anyone spends any real time at the National Archives in Washington than Malcolm!
Written on the backside of a D.P.D. affidavit sheet of paper, Hosty outlines what Oswald’s movements were and what he said.
Hand written notes by Jim Hosty. Click to enlarge.
What do you think P. stand for? Presidential? Yeah I agree. Presidential parade.
What this document does is:
1/ kills off a so called second floor lunch room encounter.
2/ places Lee Oswald outside while the Presidential motorcade went past the building.
This document is hand in hand with Will Fritz’s handwritten notes that mentions “Out with Bill Shelley in front”
Will Fritz handwritten note of Oswald’s interrogation.. Click pic. to enlarge.
Both attendees to the first interrogation of Lee Oswald wrote down where he claimed he was, not on the 6th floor, not waiting in the lunch room.
But outside with Bill Shelley while the Presidential parade went past.
Lee Oswald is the Prayer Man!
Prayer Man a.k.a. Lee Harvey Oswald. Click pic. to enlarge.
The most stubborn plonker in the village is at it again. Releasing a set of essays relating to the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. Obviously the wishful thinking and assumptions just pile up like there is no tomorrow. I already tore his previous work a new one, in short it was rubbish!
Let’s have a look at a few bits.
From the “Lunchroom” essay: Their paths should have intersected, but they didn’t. It is safe to conclude that Adams & Styles passed by Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom.
If Richard Gilbride had paid attention to the W.C. testimony of Roy Truly then he would have noticed that Roy Truly said that he leaned in, meaning his feet were still on the landing and that he peeked through, allegedly, while the door was held open! Furthermore has Gilbride ever paid attention to the size of the actual space between the landing and the lunch room door?
Second floor lunch room and corridor entry. Click to enlarge.
This is so small, no wonder Truly said he leaned in as it would have made no sense in a physical way for three people to stand there, even with Oswald being inside the lunch room for two or three feet, according to Baker.
Anything but with extraordinary confidence Richard!
2. On page 3 RichardGilbride gives Adams 8 seconds to clear each floor going down (based on what?), whereas 5 would be more accurate, the amount of steps are not that many for anyone, whether in heels or not, to clear in 8 seconds unless they were doing it on one foot, they were rushing down those few stairs. That by itself proves to be already problematic for his timings overall.
On page 4 the first floor encounter is being described, the one that was attributed to Shelley and Lovelady and the girls, and which was false and made up by Jim Leavelle in Feb. 1964 when he interviewed Victoria Adams.
The man she and Styles encounter is in all likelihood Eddie Piper (“A tall black man”). Eddie Piper who stated during his W.C. in two sessions, as the first one did not nail things down enough to a satisfactory result for the W.C. Piper said during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting already, and consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds.
Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.”
On page 5 Gilbride makes a catastrophic mistake by assuming Baker races up those stairs in the Couch and Darnell film. Not only does the Couch film swerve to the left and away far quicker to Elm St and not even capture the front stairs. The Darnell film in its final moment before swerving to the left shows Baker at best in front of the pavement which is at least 10 feet away from the bottom step of the TSBD steps. He assumes (which he does a little too often) that Baker is on course for the steps whereas nothing could be further removed from the truth. Marrion Baker is veering to the right and was on his way between the TSBD and the DalTex building as he was not certain where the shots had come from. His W.C. testimony shows clearly he was not certain at all where the shots came from.
Gilbride omits that Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor!
In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs as well.
On page 6 and 7 it turns into a shambles and Gilbride brings Dorothy Garner’s statement through the Stroud document in play in conjunction with the descent of Adams and Styles and the ascent of Baker and Truly. Since Gilbride is dead wrong with these 2 and 2 crossing each other on the second floor it can be stated with great certainty that his calculations are way off and simply not true again.
“This heavy-duty door helped to muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet. Truly, Baker and Oswald were in an intense, confrontational situation just inside the lunchroom door frame. Even if they heard some noise from those high heels, it was only high heels- irrelevant to the gestalt- and they quickly forgot about it. ” This phrase on the bottom of page 7, in its entirety is baseless speculation.
On page 8 the assumptions continue, but I cannot be bothered to dive into every cherry in this terrible piece. And furthermore Sean Murpy has left this ‘scene’ so he cannot defend his actions, I only defend mine. Only to mention that he mentions SS inspector Kelley being present at 16:45 at Oswald’s second interrogation which he was not, he did not arrive until hours later in the evening.
Enough on this one.
Finally what is objectionable is the lack of mentioning one foot note or source in this essay. This is something he lambasted me for, missing the odd bit. Yet here we have ten pages without one referral.
On page 1 Gilbride makes the mistake that Thomas Kelley was present during the interrogations with Oswald while Baker was there. This is wrong as Kelley did not appear until Oswald’s 3rd at just before 8 PM. Kelley said in his WC testimony he arrived in the evening from Kentucky and not in the afternoon. Nor is Kelley listed as a participant of the 2nd interrogation. Sorrels and Lawson were there though.
Nor was Hosty present, Hosty was only there during the first interrogation.
Then some of the sorriest speculations are drummed up for poor ol’ Marrion Baker that the reader ought to stop right there and then, and ask for a bucket.
“Baker’s train of thought interrupted- which led to a couple of vague descriptions in the affidavit when describing his location within the unfamiliar Book Depository. Baker was
suddenly immersed in a situation where any accusatory statements he made could be misinterpreted adversely, later in a legal setting. And he apparently reacted with police
discipline and remained quiet about what he recognized. The less said, the better. But he was quite mindful of this omission. And as soon as his affidavit was typed up he
brought it into Marvin Johnson’s office. And confided to Johnson that this suspect was the same guy he’d encountered down at the Depository. He’d even “started to search the man.”
I am actually accusing Gilbride of lying and this part by itself shows that Richard Gilbride has not learned one iota from his exercise over a year ago which I rightly nailed to the cross then.
The BS continues with Baker recognising Oswald and exclaiming that he was the man encountered as such. There is no proof for this besides Johnson’s report, who even mentions that Baker frisked him which he did not, and that Baker picked him out in a line-up. Which he did not.
If Baker, as according to Johnson had recognised Oswald as that man encountered o the 3rd or 4th floor then this would have been brought up during those interrogation right there and then! And Oswald would have had a much harder time there and then, but no….the 2nd floor encounter did not become public near noon on the 23rd. At least after two more interrogations!!!!
The speculations continue until the end of page 6 and it is quite painful how someone can actually write this stuff based on his own deluded assumptions which are nothing but a terrible hoax.
That Gilbride has made a pact with one of the worst internet deniers in this scene by the name of Brian Doyle is nothing short of a surprise, and he even brings up one of the worst interviews ever done by Brian Doyle and the grand kids of Sarah Stanton. This interview is known for Brian Doyle leading the ladies during this interview. Doyle also shoots himself in the foot with the hearsay answer that Sarah Stanton asked Oswald was going to go out for lunch and watch the parade and at that time was holding a soda. That is before lunch! Therefore killing of any lunch room encounter, any encounter with Mrs Robert Reid after the Baker & Truly encounter as well. Yet here is Richard Gilbride using this crap for his own benefit.
What Gilbride does very well is to leave the embarrassing part out of Brian Doyle making a complete mess of himself by trying to put Sarah Stanton in the position of Prayer Man wearing a wig for professional reasons, yes dear reader a real mind boggle. Wearing a wig for pro reasons……just so she can be seen as Prayer Man.
The massive speculation by Gilbride and the lying by Brian Doyle at various points just to stitch his own version of the evidence together has turned this whole thing into a massive joke with these two disinfo clowns.
During and shortly after the recent Lancer conference I was in contact with two individuals, who would try to get in touch with Stephen Fagin of the 6th Floor Museum and ask about the Jimmy Darnell film. It was the late Gary Mack who mentioned a first generation copy in the museum’s possession from 2008. His last mention was shortly before he passed away in 2015. You can read more about this in the huge post I made a couple of years ago.
To some the answer to proving, as in cherry on top, that Prayer Man is actually Lee Harvey Oswald lies in the Darnell film, to me not a chance in hell unless there happens to be a sharp frame in the roughly 5 seconds of that particular film sequence. The film, and especially the happenings on the stairs, offer some value in those frames. Some of the detail has been washed out and is too blurry to actually identify all people on those steps. S some individuals could be recognised with a better copy, but when it comes to ID-ing Lee Oswald being there on the first step below the landing is doubtful.
Alan Dale asked Stephen Fagin after a talk during the Lancer Conference in Nov. 2018 about whether the 6th Floor Museum had a copy of the Darnell film and if so when could scholars get access to it?
This then got the reply: “Funny as you mention this we are about to give access to a digital 2K copy of the Darnell film in our reading room”. That is partial good news, its existence has been acknowledged, but 2K is not 4K which it should have been. Since this film could give a lot of info on T.S.B.D. employees I would have not spared any money to get the best optimal result from the 16 mm film.
Stu Wexler had one of his friends go there and I asked Scott Reid to pay the Museum a visit as he happened to be in Dallas at that time. Sadly neither could give me anything conclusive and on top of that Scott managed to tell me that he could only stop and start the movie, not zoom in nor go for a slow motion setting either, so overall that was not very helpful.
The big let down is the fact that the film can only be seen in the Reading Room inside the 6th floor museum, you have to physically be there. Copies cannot be made for copyright reasons. I have asked whether it would be possible to get some still copies and that might still be possible, the powers that be will need to give their consent before this happens, whenever that may be. Will keep you posted.
Tom Alyea is the WFAA cameraman who managed to get inside the T.S.B.D. and filmed the D.P.D. searching inside and while filming them also recorded other people of interest such as Kent Biffle. And who could forget the Truly and Baker get together on the first floor. I have added a nice video that has an interview of him in the background with a lot of unseen footage. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for this.
If you want to read his take on what happened inside the T.S.B.D. and especially with the shell casings and the boxes then go HERE (Facts and photos from Connie Kritzberg’s Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46 and Alyea’s own addendums).
This Alyea interview provides more insight on the happenings inside the building as well, the rifle i/e and ends with Baker’s so called lunch room confrontation, and I do not agree with his assertion, be that as it may.
Malcolm Blunt was kind enough to send me some documentation from the A.R.R.B. which is quite a dispute regarding the film and its future use and residency. See for yourself. But most interesting is the letter from Alyea to Tom Samoluk of the A.R.R.B. in which he states that the W.C. testimony of Lt. Carl Day and Det. Studebaker, both of the D.P.D., is completely false. This is someone who believes in Oswald’s guilt, but was witness to certain things inside the book depository which were twisted around by the D.P.D.
I for one would love to see a HD version of the film in its most complete form, who knows maybe one day……
Almost 4 years ago, March 2015 to be precise, Carmine Savastano had a go at trying to bring Prayer Man down on his blog named after his book Two Princes and a King. Neither me or any other ROKCer was aware of this post. The article was updated last in Dec 2017.
Carmine departed from ROKC shortly before he wrote this, or was kicked off the forum, whoever you wish to believe. The core members had enough of his constant arguing about evidence. I was not really there when all this happened, I did not seriously partake until Jan. 2015 myself.
Now having read Savastano’s blog post just now I can honestly say that his work or better yet his understanding of Prayer Man is not very good, as a matter of fact I rate it as high as Doyle’s comprehension of the case. The difference is that whenever Doyle is in a tight spot he uses Harvey and Lee to get himself out of it. How convenient it is to use Oswald’s ‘double’ when it becomes impossible to clear yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself. But that is a different story. Let’s stick with the subject matter which is this blog post by him.
I will quote some from the article written by Carmine Savastano and write my comments down below in bold. Just wish to add that this is by no means a personal attack, it is a rebuttal to some of the arguments that are not only used by him, but by others as well who seem to lack to see the big picture and only use some of the evidence that is around.
1/The “Prayer Man” is similar to many other supposed “breakthroughs” coined by various people in the time since President Kennedy’s death. These include the Doorway Man, the Badge Man, the Black Dog Man, the Red Bandana Man, and the Black Hole Man, among many others.
I do not even know of the last two individuals, but to compare Prayer Man with Badge Man and Doorway Man is already a huge mistake.
Doorway Man was already cleared up the same evening, as the F.B.I. went to Billy Lovelady and he picked himself out from the table sized enlargement of the Altgens 6 Photograph. And Badge Man is not supported by anything but a colouring in, you could colour in a a pink elephant and try and make people believe that this is what is standing behind the picket fence. Looking at a very large b&w scan of the Moorman Polaroid does not show anything of a human outline at all.
Prayer Man is supported by evidence, be it circumstantial, but it is not something that should be disregarded. All this can be found in the interrogations reports and testimonies from Will Fritz, Jim Hosty and Harry Dean Holmes. Something Savastano doesn’t even touch nor makes mention of.
2/No witness testimony in the immediate area supports Oswald’s presence and not a single witness identifies him in the area during the shots.
Almost correct (Carolyn Arnold’s statement), but what Savastano omits from his writings is:
The primary statements by Shelley and Lovelady i/e do not contain a word about Oswald at all, as they were taken before Oswald was taken in. Once they witnessed Oswald’s arrival at City Hall, he was brought in as a cop killer, not as the shooter of J.F.K. Now who in their right mind would associate themselves with a cop killer?
Nor did anyone mention the negro on the bottom of the steps, Carl Edward Jones or Joe Molina who stood next to Shelley and above Otis Williams. Only one person mentioned Joe Molina, and that was Victoria Adams, and that was after her descent from the 4th floor and being directed back to the T.S.B.D. by a police man.
At the same time not one witness standing on those steps during the shooting says who that Caucasian male actually is. That is troubling no?
And why should they, in those days anyone of non Caucasian build in Tx. was expected to shut up and not volunteer information (Carl Jones, Roy Lewis and Joe Molina).
The women? Same!
Frazier? He was 19 and got the scare of his life by being shoved a statement, for being a co-conspirator, in front of him to sign by ‘old reliable’ Will Fritz.
Lovelady? Got bailed out by Ochus Campbell (the vice-president of the T.S.B.D.) for a weapons charge he was going to be re-arrested for.
Shelley? Oswald’s foreman, why should he side with a commie sympathiser? A cop killer to boot. No thank you……
Plus why should they state were Oswald was at that time, they barely knew him and he was dead by the time quite a few of the T.S.B.D. workers were interviewed, and who would want the weight of local and national law enforcement agencies on their back for a dead commie sympathiser who had also killed a cop!
3/ This person could be from a number of businesses in the vicinity, a passerby, a tourist, any number of people besides Lee Harvey Oswald.
This is about the biggest mistake Savastano can make, not only by disregarding this person as anyone but Oswald and also avoiding using his common sense, but also for the fact that it is no stranger either as was documented in March of 1964, as per CE 1381. If you want evidence Carmine, the stranger scenario is killed off with that document.
4/ While a conspiracy is eminently feasible and supported by substantial evidence, that does not justify the “Prayer Man” claim.
A very strange claim to make, especially when Savastano fails to submit such evidence himself, pot kettle…..
5/ Additional feasibly contending evidence includes the verbal statement of Lee Harvey Oswald himself.Some suggest we cannot trust any of the evidence, which is ridiculous, for how else can we prove anything? If most evidence available indicates something, it is more than likely to have occurred. Consider the amount of work and people required to suppress this idea. It would be a large undertaking of little value, since the matter still proves nothing of substance. It is not a smoking gun in my view, but smoke and mirrors.
Here Savastano makes another whopper of a faux pas. Not only does he ascribe to some of Oswald’s public statements in a video by Len Osanic, which are not timed in any way btw, but will be by me soon enough in my next paper “Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations”.
But he also produces a very incomplete body of work. What Carmine should have done for starters is introduce the statements made by Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout and Holmes and also their notes and testimony as to Oswald’s whereabouts and more importantly about he destruction of Oswald’s alibi. Something I did in my first paper “Anatomy of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter” From thereon he could have concluded that the lunch room encounter was an utter fake event and from thereon investigate where Oswald actually was during that period, of shooting J.F.K.
Alfred D. Hodge was a gun store owner and also owned a bar next door to that store and was called late in the evening by Will Fritz to come down to City Hall on the 3rd floor to his office to have a look at the Carcano rifle and the pistol supposedly both owned by Oswald.
The other thing that may be of interest to others is Hodge’s elevator journey with two detectives and Jack Ruby, but I am not going further into this. Read more about this HERE.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was in Captain Fritz’ office when you went in first?
Mr. HODGE. Well—
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald there?
Mr. HODGE. I didn’t see Oswald. I have never seen him except on TV, but Captain Fritz has one office I don’t know which office is his, but the one on the left has a glass window in it, and when I went in this hallway, out in the hallway where all the TV cameras was, there was another hallway, and Captain Fritz waved at me–he seen me through this glass and there was several people in there with him, and I went on in a little office not quite as big as this and sat down.
But in his HSCA testimony (thanks to Malcolm Blunt) he describes three (!) sightings, in a very short period, of Oswald being interrogated by Fritz on his own.
Fritz on his own? Was that not the thing, that Fritz couldn’t do this as various F.B.I., Secret Service, A.T.F. and other law enforcement agents were constantly present while Oswald was being interrogated. Quite a few other D.P.D. personnel made mention of the fact that Fritz was hindered by this and could not get Oswald to confess. Personally I doubt he would have ever ‘cracked’ Oswald. But this HSCA statement smells……
“At any rate, I called this meeting to remind you all of a few things. As you probably know, the Secret Service wants no help from the FBI in protecting the president or his party. Vince Drain here” — Shanklin nodded toward Drain, who was sitting across from me at another desk — “has already made contact with the Dallas Secret Service office, but was politely rebuffed. He was told in so many words they needed no help from us.”
A memo from Vincent Drain seems to concur with the above mentioned.
F.B.I. memo Vincent Drain Nov 25 1963. Click doc to enlarge.
So that is Shanklin, Drain and Hosty all mentioning one way or another that help from the F.B.I. in regards The President’s visit is not needed.
Enter Stephan Weiss of the 112th military intelligence group who was ordered by Colonel Robert E Jones to offer full cooperation with the Secret Service for J.F.K.’s visit in Dallas. And was told (Sorrels is not named as such) during a meeting they were not needed. Read the documents below, there are a few more nuggets in there you should read.
Special thanks to Malcolm Blunt for the documentation.
This is going to be fairly quiet month publishing wise, as I am very busy working on the new DPUK website. We have a meet on the 11th where it will be shown and discussed, and at that meet we also have William Matson Law talking to us over Skype. The official release of the website will be either end of Sept or early Oct.
Then there is a Dealey Plaza UK one day seminar on Sept 29th in York where I will do a Prayer Man talk for an hour and I will need to prep for that, the presentation will be videoed and shown on YouTube shortly after that. Since I have not spoken publicly about Prayer Man for more than two years it is safe to say that we have a few things to talk about.
A full program will be published in the next week or so.
The Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations paper will be published just before that. I got 130 odd pages of new material and I have decided to change things drastically. Meaning the whole thing (at that time consisting of 435 pages) was torn up and re-assembled, but in this case it will be presented in a time line fashion instead. This benefits the paper a lot, as I was of the opinion that it became very cluttered. You will see for yourself in about one month. The info taken out will be on each law enforcement officer’s web page on this site. I have made a start with the D.P.D. which has not been finished yet and the other agencies are to follow. Plenty to do.
There are some other important bits going, but I am going to keep the lid on this for a while. From Sept. onwards there will be some interesting stories to share.
About 6 weeks ago I was approached by S.T. Patrick of Midnight Writer News to do an interview for his show after a few weeks we finally managed to do this. Listening back to it one month after I did it I have to say I did not do too bad. I am very critical of myself when I do these things, and the good thing is that after listening to 50 mins of it I haven’t turned it off yet!
I am talking about the research done and of course, the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, T.S.B.D., Dallas P.D. and Prayer Man all pass the avenue during this interview.
A thoroughly enjoyable experience.
Thank you S.T. Patrick.
GoHERE to hear the interview and read up about it on the Midnight Writer News Website.
During the interview I mistakenly refer to me as having received the JFK Lancer Pioneer Award, which is wrong it was the New Frontier Award actually. Apologies for the mix-up.
Oswald in the corridor Nov 22nd, after his Tippit arraignment which was at 7:10 PM.
A week ago I posted a silent version of this video , I then found this one with audio attached to it from a Canadian TV program. And since hearing the audio now, I can safely say that this is the same moment as in the video posted below this one, but all the way from the other side. Kinda cool. This is where it pays of looking and comparing at the film material of those happenings inside that corridor. There was a lot made that day and the weekend after, but so little has been released in decent quality.
This is after Oswald’s arraignment inside Fritz’s office for the Tippit murder.
This door leads to the jail elevator.
Third floor plan Dallas City Hall. Click pic. to enlarge.
And then from that very same door Oswald emerges at about 19:50 hrs, the Patsy sequence. Again requesting legal representation and exclaiming his innocence of shooting The President.
Think about it in a time frame of roughly 40 minutes Lee Oswald, twice mentioned the hearing without legal representation. Not allowing him to have any, and steadfastly denying he shot anyone.
The last week there has been some debate about an old myth: The Sun Plane in the Prayer Man images.
Originally brought up by Brian Doyle in his many word salad postings a couple of years ago, and in that whole period Doyle has never brought forward how it is supposed to look or give a rough estimation of it. So like a flat earther he ended up posting “his findings” on the net and everybody else would have to believe his “research” on his say so.
This tactic doesn’t work very well for Doyle, people are smarter than that. And yes Doyle = Cinque, there is no doubt about that.
Then there was Barry Pollard who posted an image of Billy Lovelady going down the steps in the Wiegman film and claimed that Lovelady wore a black jacket as he could not explain the shadow on the left half on Lovelady’s (2) torso.
Yet with Bill Shelley (3) in the background it could be that Lovelady walks exactly halfway in the shadow and the sun. Be aware that this is an enlargement of a small detail of a 16 mm film shot with a wide angle lens. The steps occupants look much closer together due to these factors.
Prayer Man = 1, Billy Lovelady = 2 and Bill Shelley = 3. Click pic to enlarge.
Click to enlarge.
Take a look at the shadow of the people at the front and the sharp angle it is coming at, granted they may not stand exactly parallel to the people on the steps, but for a rough indication this ought to show that the shadow is much longer than originally discussed.
I can pinpoint it even more precise.
Take a look at Buell Wesley Frazier in the Darnell film. And you will see the shadow of the top left corner of the wall (just underneath the TSBD sign) creates a shadow of a 90 degree-ish angle on him, his head is in the shade no less. Above Frazier and JoeMolina is a glass pane and that is partially illuminated and so is the glass on the far eastern side. This illumination is from a reflection of the eastern wall.
Click pic. to enlarge.
Look at Maddie Reese in both images, in Wiegman standing southwesterly below Lovelady in Wiegman and Frazier in Darnell.
Click to enlarge.
So now anyone drawing the TSBD steps in 3D is able to pinpoint how the sun plane is actually going correctly as so far no one has done this as it ought to be. The shadow ends up way more Eastwards than has been shown so far. And honestly I trust the photos more. Furthermore the three people that have started to make 3d drawings of the steps of the T.S.B.D. put the shadowline in as a 2d object, whereas the shadow would resemble some sort of half a sphere instead.
This is the only available record of Louise Steenbarge, She and her husband were accountants for the U.S. military.
After all these years we still have not been given the exact flight and timing of Oswald’s flight from London to Helsinki. Is it possible that Oswald was on that MATS flight with Mrs Steenbarge?
Interesting doc of Robert MacNeil and his entry into the T.S.B.D., not a word of him seeing and interacting with Oswald there. Something the Secret Service “suggested” had happened.
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for the copies.
Click pic. to enlarge.
Then there is Kent Biffle and the phone calls to Russia.
Thanks to Linda Giovanna Zambanini and her diligent research.
Sarah Dean Stanton. Thanks to Linda Giovanna Zambanini. Click pic. to enlarge.
Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton in the Darnell film.. Click to enlarge.
The photograph obtained by Brian Doyle of Sarah Stanton was taken after 1963, and according to her grand daughter(s) she was less heavy set in the photograph than as she was in 1963. According to the grand kids she weighed over 300 lbs. at the time of te assassination.
FBI statement Sarah Stanton March 1964.
FBI Statement Pauline Sanders. Click to enlarge.
FBI statement Pauline Sanders.
Buell Wesley Frazier also confirms in some videos that Sarah Stanton was standing to his left, as per her own statement on the East side of the steps along with Pauline Sanders.
At 18:25.
At 53:14.
At 06:02, Frazier who uses both his hands indicates only with his left hand outwards, so she was standing next to him to his left!
Greg Parker posted this on FB recently, he pretty much IDed Baker in footage from the evening of the 23rd (about 30 hours after the assassination) of Baker seeing Oswald while he is about to be escorted through the hall and ducks away.
Now let me be very cynical for a change, but if I didn’t know any better then Baker looks at the guy who is being railroaded for the murder of The President, and after what has been going on about the second floor lunch room encounter that had only been public knowledge earlier that day and he cannot bear to look at him any longer after clocking him. That’s what the cynic inside tells me after looking at the man’s body language. I look too much at this stuff, but it’s one of those tells. Like Oswald’s face when he hears “You have been charged for murdering The President”. One of those moments were a picture starts to speak a thousand words.
There has to be more footage of this, as I have never seen this transfer of Oswald on the eve of Nov. 23rd before. It was from a documentary that I only had in a low resolution so never bothered to properly check it myself. Thanks to Greg Parker we all can see Baker on the 23rd no less. Closer inspection also reveals that this encounter is coincidental as Baker just tries to make his way past when the door has just opened with Oswald coming out.
I shall post some screen shots of this footage Greg pointed at. A very short snippet of The Lost JFK Tapes docu.
Marrion Baker Nov 23 1963
Marrion Baker Nov 23 1963
Marrion Baker Nov 23 1963
The video below will play the clip once in real time, and once in a crude slow motion.
A couple more interesting pieces, thanks to Malcolm Blunt once again.
The first one shows timings of reports just after the assassination by NBC TV, the second is on Oswald and Bringuier, the D.R.E. (which receives financing from the CIA).
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt I have been handed a document on Wesley Liebeler, who was one of the senior lawyers of the W.C. And although this document has been described at 22november1963.org.uk , there is no active link to the document itself. Liebeler is ploughing through and raises his questions, offers feedback and proposes amendments to Chapter IV of the Warren Report dated Sept. 6th 1964. Compared to the date that the Warren Report was issued to L.B.J. on Sept 24th 1964. Not that much notice was given to Liebeler’s remarks since not a lot changed in those 18 days.
Ladies and gents have a good read, as some of his observations are golden.
What is mentioned by Wesley Liebeler are: the rifle, the finger/palm prints on the boxes, Buell Wesley Frazier, the description of Oswald after his departure from the T.S.B.D., Amos Euins, questioning the 2nd floor encounter, Victoria Adams’ descent, the bus ride, the line-ups, the revolver, the arrest at the T.T., Johnny Calvin Brewer, Walker shooting, Marin Oswald, the rifle scope and its firing tests.
Even though the document is mentioned at the site above, you only get to read a summarisation, whereas now you have the whole thing at your own leisure.
I love the ending of the document: “I forgot to mention that some question might be raised when the public discovers that there was only one eyewitness to the Tippit killing, i/e one person who saw him kill him. All the rest only saw subsequent events. Mrs. Markham is nicely buried there, but I predict not for long.”
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
Wesley Liebeler on Chapter IV of the Warren Report.
On Fri the 27th the missus and I made our way to Canterbury to attend the 16th DPUK Canterbury seminar. I had a two hour presentation to give on the Saturday and also had scheduled two interviews, one with Malcolm Blunt and the other with John Newman on Sunday. Besides that I managed to get Jim DiEugenio to do his “JFK and his foreign policy” talk. We had some rain but other than that it was ok. Barry Keane and I shared a flat in the centre of Canterbury and we joined the rest of the posse (about a dozen at that time) in the pub for a couple of pints and from thereon we made our way to Pinocchio’s an Italian restaurant where Dealey Plaza UK has been going on the evening before the seminar ever since organising it in in Canterbury.
I myself left a bit earlier than the rest and managed to get really drunk at the flat in the time span of one hour, it took me by surprise to say the least. Waking up the next morning and not remembering how I got to bed at all was already the first indicator of a raging hangover that lasted pretty much all day. And it was not just me, Barry Keane who had the honours of doing the very first talk felt it too ;) But we managed to pull through, there was simply too much at stake. I myself felt like Richard Nixon with that sweaty patch just above my lips and had to wipe it several times while the booze was making its way out through my pores.
Professional indeed….
The whole weekend was great fun and obviously flew by rather quick. I enjoyed the entire program and could I do 4-5 days of this? Easy!
I would like to thank Stuart Galloway, DPUK’s outgoing secretary, for setting the seminar up like he has been doing for the past decade, he did a marvellous job. Thank you Stuart for everything you have done!
Thanks to all the speakers as well for sharing your time and knowledge to us.
The audio of the above interview of Malcolm can also be heard at the The Lone Gunman Podcast with an intro by yours truly.
The John Newman video will be inserted in a few days. But the Lone Gunman Podcast of the audio of this telephone interview can be listened to HERE.
On March 24th Gayle Nix Jackson was kind enough to share her time with about fifteen DPUK members above in the Flying Horse pub. We let her do most of the talking, about her new and above all very good book Pieces of the Puzzle: An Anthology. I recommend it especially for those that read books with a keen interest in the case.
We started with about ten of us and by the end of the talk that had grown into fifteen. As you will be able to hear from the videos we had quite a few laughs, and with the audio difficulties considered we managed to pull of a largely unscripted chat that was of great fun to us all.
Stuart Galloway was kind enough to film the screen of our talk and I took a few quick shots with my iPhone shown below. Enjoy as much as we had two weeks ago.
Finally I will not be posting much until just before Canterbury. I have two Q&As to prepare and sort my own two hour presentation out, and there is loads that needs to be done for it. Busy few weeks ahead. I hope to show a batch of videos of Canterbury in May.
Here is the final program for the Dealey Plaza UK Canterbury seminar. Quite a few busy weeks ahead for me regarding my own presentation and the two Q&As.
Bart Kamp presenting at the DPUK Canterbury seminar 2016. Click pic. to enlarge.
We do intend to video the talks and they will be shown shortly after.
Updated March 25th 2018, March 20th 2019 and Dec 8th 2019.
Recently the 6th Floor Museum uploaded a video of Stephen Fagin’s interview with Karen Westbrook Scranton. She worked for a small publisher Southwestern Company alongside with Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Ann Reed and Carol Hughes on the second floor office of the T.S.B.D. after she graduated from high school.
At about 07:15 it is shown that her desk inside the second floor office is in the southeast corner. But this wrong, Room 203 is on the Western wall, what is shown is the 2nd floor office of the TSBD office and not the Southwestern offices.
Karen Westbrook’s desk was in the far right upper corner of this pic. Click to enlarge.
At 11:10 it starts to go really wrong. She states that after seeing the photograph of the fake vestibule that that door was always open. The door in question was part of a unit built to keep the noise out and had a door closing attachment fixed at the top of the door, which you can see below in a picture at the top left of the door on the inside. What she refers to as the door of the lunch room is the door after that, which I am showing next in the gallery below. Plus a close-up showing that that lunch room door is open. Imagine that outer door being open all that time then Baker’s and Truly’s remarks with the door being closed and that Baker caught a glimpse through the glass of the door can be completely discounted then. Some nerdy shizzle going on here folks….. But I do not find this suspicious merely human error and it being a long time ago.
At 12:10 Stephen Fagin makes the mistake of referring to the 2nd floor lunch room as to the Domino room, the Domino room was downstairs on the first floor and not the second. It was called that way as they tended to play a lot of domino games in there. It was the labourers’ lunch room.
Then shortly after that she drops a massive bomb shell, and states that Oswald had his lunch in there in the corner by himself. So that would be the first table coming in on the right on the photo below.
Click on pic to enlarge.
That is quite a thing to say as many others said that Oswald always had his lunch in the Domino Room which was on 1st. Then also if Oswald was in the lunch room at 12:15 as stated by Carolyn Arnold in the 70’s then others could have easily confirmed that. Reid especially as she left later at about 12:20. Molina had lunch and could have seen him there as well, but he made no mention of it, nor did anyone else. Plus the lunch room on the second floor was off limits to workers, since they had the Domino Room to have lunch in, on the first floor.It is quite possible it is true that she must have seen him on the odd occasion getting coke, but sitting down and having lunch no way.
At 13:00 she mentions that Lee was always reading strange looking material. Pamphlet style material. Again I have to take this with a massive grain of salt.
After that she tells about Altgens 6, and confirms that it was Billy Lovelady, and that the guy was looking a bit like Lee, but it wasn’t him. “It became a terrible joke in the office.”
At 18:10 Karen Westbrook Scranton IDs herself in the Zapruder film. And also pointed out that redheaded Gloria Calvery was standing right beside her. There was no doubt in her mind. Finally an ID of Gloria Calvery! She then says that she believes the person next to Gloria Calvery is Carol Ann Reed and that is wrong. It is Stella Mae Jacob, who was a (Native) Indian.
Click to enlarge.
With this ID, it can be said that running woman in Couch and Darnell is not Gloria Calvery. Furthermore she cannot be compared with any of the women going up on the west side of the stairs in Darnell either. Gloria Calvery’s son seems to dispute that the woman with the red hair is his mum. Stephen Fagin relays this, but does not elaborate any further, nor does anyone else
In this film still, by James Darnell. We see Jakob, Holt and Simmons within a few minutes after the shooting.
Stella Mae Jakob, Gloria Holt and Sharron Simmons in the Darnell film. Click to enlarge.
If these three women are the same then Westbrook was wrong about the ID of the person standing next to Gloria Calvery as being her. The darker skinned person is Stella Mae Jacob, who describes herself as of Indian descent (in this context that means Native American). If this is true, then there is an even bigger problem with regards the timing of their return, according to Jacob’s statement in CE1381 she did not even make it back inside the T.S.B.D. and left for home instead! That by itself is interesting with regards to the so called missing persons and the roll call by Roy Truly. There were lots of people missing, LOTS!
Here are all the women involved in this chapter. But they are from different companies.
Karan Hicks.
Gloria Little/Calvery.
Karen Westbrook.
Stella Mae Jacob.
Gloria Jean Holt 1962.
Gloria Jean Holt 1963.
Sharron Simmons/Nelson.
From the women that are in that group according to their statements in CE1381 I can relay.
Gloria Little/Calvery stated she was with: Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook and Karan Hicks. After getting back in the office she made her way back down near the front entrance, but was told she could not leave.
Karan Hicks stated she was with: Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook and Carol Reed. After making her way back in the office, like Calvery, she made her way back down near the front entrance, but was told she could not leave.
Gloria JeanHolt was with Stella Mae Jacob and Sharron Simmons. She did not manage to get back inside the T.S.B.D. and subsequently went home.
Stella Mae Jacob was accompanied by Sharron Nelson/Simmons and Gloria Jean Holt. She also did not manage to get back inside the T.S.B.D. and subsequently went home as well.
Sharron Nelson/Simmons was with Gloria Jean Holt and Stella Mae Jacob. She did not return to the T.S.B.D. either.
Carol Reed stated she was with Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery.
This then translates into the following graphic.
Click to enlarge.
We can see Stella Mae Jacob and Gloria Holt embracing each other in the Harry Cabluck picture from the Dallas Times Herald below. You can also notice the two ladies on the right are lady 4 and 5 to the left of the Stemmons freeway sign in the Z film still.
Stella Mae Jacob and either Gloria Calvery or Gloria Jean Holt embracing in a Harry Cabluck/D.T.H. pic. From Robin Unger’s jfkassassinationgallery.com. Click to enlarge.
Then at 29:17 she starts to relay the conversation she apparently had with Mrs. Robert Reid, the clerical supervisor. The most astonishing bit is she had that convo after the assassination, on the very same day, while people were locked-in the office by the police and they were milling around inside it. Mrs Reid said Lee came in with a coke in his hand and asked “what’s all that excitement all about.” And she answered “OMG someone shot the President.” And Karen Westbrook Scranton then says “Whether that’s true and fits in with the timeline of the story. that was Mrs Reid’s story, seeing Lee after the assassination.” Think about it, Lee asked what the commotion was about? Mrs Reid described Lee’s manner as almost non-responsive, he had said something that she could not understand. And she said all this to everyone inside the office within an hour after the assassination? Molina could have confirmed that, but he did not, nor did anyone else. Especially Geneva Hine would not relay that, since she was alone in the office between 12:25-12:35! And she saw Reid, Stanton, Reed, Molina and others come in about 25 mins after.
At 33:40 she tells the story of Marguerite Oswald coming in and causing a scene and being removed from the building. A situation that was described by Roy Truly as well. He even said that she showed Altgens 6 and claimed that it was Lee on the front page picture.
She is convinced Lee did it, and has of course taken in certain pro-Warren Commission scenarios to support that opinion. What she says is informative, but there are some mistakes and also some statements that are hard to believe.
Update Dec 8th 2019.
Karen Westbrook Scranton has donated a set of photos which were taken inside the office of Southwestern Publishing Company to the Sixth Floor Museum. I have enhanced these photographs with more colour and sharpness.
There are quite a few things from the JFK Assassination that have gone missing; many original films, photographs and negatives have disappeared. So have documents which were held for decades under lock and key (like the 50 odd interviews of Oswald’s Marine Core buddies). And of course documents held by the law enforcement agencies. Buell Wesley Frazier’s polygraph is obviously one of them.
While talking with Rob Clark of the Lone Gunman Podcast he pointed me to the polygraph documents of Buell Wesley Frazier at NARA. I paid $40.00 to have the files scanned and sent to me hoping to see the polygraph of Buell Wesley Frazier, instead I got hold of the documentation detailing the search and requests for the actual polygraph and where everyone contacted passed the buck. And then the paper bag Oswald was supposed to have brought alongside with him makes an entry, which I don’t care much about.
Bit of a waste of money and time really, not the first time and surely not the last.
The Death of Richard Gilbride’s Deluded Fantasies.
Richard Gilbride used to be a co-administrator at ROKC. He left the forum not just for his opposing and his dated views with regards the second floor room encounter, but he also behaved in a rather irritant and alienating manner, thinking his admin/mod status could speak for all the others of the ROKC forum.
In 2014 Richard Gilbride managed to post a few things while being at ROKC that obviously rubbed everyone else up the wrong way by moving the goalposts and also restating inexact facts and resort to made-up fairy tales. And of course like ROKC’s biggest ‘fan’ Brian Doyle he has been isolating himself further and further. A few samples…..
“The lunacy in me is in taking on the cult, the true believers, those who don’t think the lunchroom incident ever happened. Because those true believers are the true lunatics, who can’t accept concrete evidence that their hypothesis is incorrect, even with that evidence is dropped at their feet and thoroughly explained to them”HERE
and I find the contentions of those who say the lunchroom event didn’t happen an insult to my intelligence. What I am insulting is their reasoning power, regarding this particular facet of November 22nd- because as far as this incident goes, they have taken leave of their senses. “They” meaning Sean Murphy, Greg Parker, Lee Farley, and those who actively promote this school of thought. What they promulgate is an insult to my better judgement, and many other peoples’ better judgement. It should be an insult to their better judgement. HERE.
Almost four years later nothing has changed. You will see while reading on.
Since leaving ROKC in 2014 he has had a huge chip on his shoulder about ROKC research. Once in a blue moon he starts to appear on a forum and spews his gal, which does not hold any ground whatsoever. It only appears in Gilbride’s mind. Brian Doyle and his Prayer Woman beliefs fall in the exact same category, the category of being deluded and in deep denial only believing their own ‘truth’.
A year ago Richard Gilbride was still a member at the Education forum, but the disgusting post below got him his membership revoked, like the troll Brian Doyle who posted so much drivel he became the laughing stock of the JFK Research Community. Leaving Gilbride only the half decent Deep Politics Forum to vent. I don’t count the JFK Assassination forum run by disinfo clown Duncan MacRae as a proper forum. One has to ask themselves why these deluded individuals keep at this while at the same time their memberships are being revoked. It certainly doesn’t speak well for their argumentation overall, but in this case why don’t we let his ‘writings’ speak for himself and you the readers/researchers can make up their own mind.
No matter how strong the evidence is, it will be denied purely due to the fact that it comes from us at ROKC. I have very little time for flat earthers, climate change and holocaust deniers and these two people are from the same pack. Doyle and Gilbride are also technically inept to such an extend that mouthing off without providing any proof is their only weapon. Oh we at ROKC mouth off big time, but that is after presenting the proof in abundance after which we are being lied to by these fantasists. Then of course we will address your shit.
Gilbride first two essays on the second floor lunch room encounter are filled to the brim with unsupported innuendo, made-up ‘evidence and have been demolished by various researchers (including yours truly). In 2014 at ROKC and later at the Education Forum in 2015/2016. And with his third ‘essay’ (90 pages too long) it is even worse. About half of it is used to attack me and my work and the other half is again just opinionated and unsubstantiated drivel which is nothing but a repeat from his dreadful fairy tale ‘research’ that is more than 4 years old. And only this once he gets the special treatment (a blog post) from me. I cannot be bothered otherwise since his crap does not deserve anyone’s attention.
When he made a forum post entitled “Death Of A Lunch Room Hoax” at the Deep Politics Forum earlier in Feb., he got rebutted by Jim DiEugenio, David Josephs and Alan Ford with great ease already. But why stop there……I want my slice of the cake as well. So here we go.
Good Stuff.
It seems that I made some typos regarding the dates of the SS report(s) concerning Mrs Robert Reid. I also forgot to add one page of these reports to my paper which resulted in me erroneously claiming she made no mention of the coke in that statement. That was wrong and I have corrected that. One thing that needs to be added is that the Secret Service Reports from early Dec. 1963 are to be treated with the utmost suspicion, some of the T.S.B.D. worker’s testimonies in those reports were contradicting their very first statements to the D.P.D. and the F.B.I.
I also erroneously ascribed a radio message to Jesse Curry whereas that should have been Bill Decker instead. I corrected that as well.
These correction will be in the V.4 update of Anatomy Of The Second Lunch Room Encounter out early March.
And that is it mistake-wise from all the 90 pages, now then y’all best strap in as the person who has never before attempted to look and research all the evidence before and relied way too much on his own innuendo for three essays on the same subject matter is about to get a serious kicking. Of course he himself will deny this up to the hilt.
Bad stuff.
The introduction by itself is a very weak start, instead of sticking to the point he drifts off already and drags in historical quotes which have no bearing on this case whatsoever. Gilbride tries to show of his intellect, not that it works as you will see further on where he makes some really dumb mistakes which are only made because of his blindness created by his hatred for ROKC and my work. These first few pages are pure filler. Anyone can bang together a few historic quotes and massage the whole thing together. Gilbride should have included a few of these, it would have been more fitting to his work overall.
Then we arrive at Prayer Man, Gilbride feels the need to drag this part of the enigma into this document for a large part spread all over it. I myself make brief mention of it in the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter paper I made. In this chapter it is already going horribly wrong, nothing new as the majority of this has been already posted more than two to four years ago at the Education Forum and back then it was torn to bits, not just by me but pretty much any member there in that thread. Gilbride’s so called photogrammetry calculations amount to junk science and like Brian Doyle he talks the talk trying to make everyone believe that they are the experts who know how to do this, but the reality is quite the opposite, drawing a few lines on a 2d photograph amounts to bugger all, a small child can do this.
He provides no info as to what camera/lens was used by both camera men (Darnell and Wiegman), there is no way to determine the exact spot of both camera men and their distance to the front steps of the TSBD, one can only guess. It is flawed from the word get go, but this was already relayed to him two years ago on the Education Forum, but Gilbride isn’t listening let alone researching just rehashing the same old fairy tale.
Nor does anyone know whether Prayer Man stood on the top of the landing or one step down. I speculate he is one step down due to his stance, and the way the steps go wider. And also due to the size of Shelley/Frazier on the landing and Lovelady who stood on a lower step. There is no way of ascertaining by sight whether Prayer Man stood on the landing or one step down from either film. The height analysis is pure conjecture, there is zero and I repeat zero evidence to back up Doyle’s and Gilbride ‘s claims. His calculations are sucked out of his thumb and presented as gospel.
Gilbride states that Lovelady stood on the top step. If there is one thing abundantly clear in Wiegman it is that Lovelady is standing one step lower below Shelley and Frazier and is leaning against the railing. This cannot be done while standing on the top step. Take a look at the photographs below. Now pretend to stand on the landing and imagine leaning against that railing….bit difficult to do that no? Also look how close he is to Williams who stood one or even two steps down. No way could he have stood that close to him if he were standing on the landing. And also consider that Lovelady stood behind Carl Jones as you can see in the Hughes film and as the motorcade made its way down Elm he moved slightly to the right and up the steps. Not the landing where Shelley, Frazier, Sanders and Stanton were already standing. Lovelady had a curious mind and when the shots rang out he left those steps immediately with Shelley. Lovelady can be seen lowering on the steps in Wiegman as well.
Doyle tried to lie himself out of it and it never worked, and it doesn’t work this time for Gilbride either. Major fail on Gilbride’s part of repeating this debunked rubbish.
Click to enlarge
On Page 7 it gets “better”, Gilbride brings in the pix used by Brian Doyle for his Prayer Woman malarky. The buttons argument was debunked by me more than a year ago. These are not buttons they are artefacts from a transfer from tape to digital, as simple as that. I wrote two articles nailing Doyle and his lies to the cross. Gilbride pretends like his nose is bleeding and present this horse shit afresh…..you’d think he would be joking but he isn’t.
In the very first article it was shown that Craig Lamson and Duncan MacRae faked the detail of the Darnell image which shows Prayer Man/Lee Oswald. Gilbride is using this image and on the same page of that article is also a photograph which shows the “buttons”, those buttons which appear all over the actual image. These buttons in correlation with the actual size of the image would be massive in real life. David Josephs brings a coherent argument forward at the Education Forum about this.
Here let me show you again in a very simple way and you can see they are all over the image. Buttons = fairy tale. Prayer Woman died a long time ago already. But like McAdams would do many years ago, even when debunked they still have a go at presenting this again at a later date. This is pure trolling.
Neither Doyle, MacRae and Gilbride possess any photography skills let alone be able to edit/manipulate/enhance/post the images. Recently Gilbride, already being a member at DPF for quite some time, had to ask the DPF members to show him how to post pix at that forum. Gilbride’s photo analytical qualities come into question again later on.
In short the entire hooey from pages 3-9 is to be avoided purely for the bad research being done and repeating already debunked stories. if you do not think I make a point then just have a look at the replies Jim DiEugenio and David Joseph gave to Richard Gilbride with regards this BS. Another major fail on Gilbride’s account for adopting the sheer garbage produced by Brian Doyle, Duncan MacRae and Craig Lamson. When I asked Lamson, Doyle and MacRae for the EXIF data, and not meta data Doyle, they refused to pass it on as it would have shown heavy manipulation from their part. Instead the cowardly fakers ran away.
Then he asserts running woman is Gloria Calvery, there is absolutely nothing to support this, not even BWF’s statement. Since he brings this in connection with Shelley and Lovelady who had already departed. Shelley and Lovelady lied about their stay on the steps for 3-4 minutes during their WC testimony. It would have invalidated the W.C. fairy tale of 2nd floor lunch room encounter and Oswald’s departure there and then, as everyone would have seen Oswald leaving the TSBD. It is impossible that this happened. Calvery to this day has not been IDed in Dealey Plaza on that day no matter how hard people try. In Shelley’s first statement, before Oswald was marched in or let us even assume he gave that statement during it. He stated that he saw Gloria Calvery afterhe had left the steps. There is no interactionbetween Shelley and Lovelady and running woman at all. It is pure guesswork. But it would have been a lot better if both these clowns actually paid attention to the very little info that is available of Gloria Calvery. In CE1381 she states. “After President Kennedy was shot, I returned to my office. I stayed there a short time then returned to the front entrance of the building. I remained there only two or three minutes and then came back to my office. I left my office for the day at about 1:30 PM and went home.” There is absolutely nothing about her running back, she went inside and up to her office and then came back down.
The drab is continued with Harry Dean Holmes’ affidavit and WC testimony, if anyone gave the game away on Oswald’s alibi it was H.D.H., he was not part of the boys club inside the DPD and surely did not get the memo to keep his mouth shut and not to volunteer any info. Holmes himself is also questionable for the fact that not one person could take responsibility handing the rifle to Oswald, as it supposedly had come through his office. The rifle that never existed in Oswald’s inventory, but that is a whole different story btw.
Gilbride refers to a 4 page memo from Dec 17th, which was his report from Nov. 24th. What Gilbride does not realise is that there is a 8 pager as well. My position on Holmes’ testimony is quite clear in my paper, Gilbride thinks different due to his interpretation, which no one else but another research apologist by the name of Larry R. Trotter agrees with. Alan Ford demolishes that interpretation as well at DPF. Click and see for yourself. But why do I not paste part of Holmes’ WC testimony below.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr.HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
As simple as that Gilbride’s wishful fairy tales are torn up again. So the first 12 pages are completely worthless and why should we stop there. On page 13 the THE WILL-CALL COUNTER BUMP chapter is put forward. Since I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that both Truly and Baker never went in as fast as they claimed this chapter can also be dismissed. The 13 points of concurrence are also utterly worthless, David Josephs takes care of this already (post #2), no need for me to add anything. So that is 15 pages that can be skipped due to the terrible work put forward by Richard Gilbride.
And it is getting worse, let me quote from page 19.
“Yet no other document even loosely correlates the existence of a “3rd or 4th floor” man, and do not wait up nights hoping that something supportive will turn up among the documents-yet-to-be-released. The chances are nil. “3rd or 4th floor” man has been utterly useless as a tool to help decipher what went on, just after the assassination, inside the Texas School Book Depository. All we can infer is- if he ever existed at all- he vanished into thin air. This empty result adds nothing contributory to the crime scene investigation, certainly nothing better than what the commonly-held assertion gives us- that Baker was simply confused about the TSBD floor layout when he composed his affidavit.”
Ah yes Baker was just so confused, he went up two short flights of stairs and was already confused about what floor he was on, sure…… Had Baker thought that the shipping dept. on the first floor was the ground floor then he would have mistaken the 2nd floor for the 1st and not 3rd or 4th, but Gilbride wants everyone to believe that Baker’s first affidavit has no real meaning yet it is paramount in showing that there was no second floor lunch room encounter at all. That document by itself is a major cliff hanger. Gilbride keeps pushing this terrible scenario again and again, and this was also debunked at the Education forum as utter hogwash.
On page 21 he cannot believe the amount of people that are supposedly involved with this encounter lie, what Gilbride omits is that
1/ there is no mention of a second floor encounter on the 22nd, the first public outing is at around lunch time on the 23rd (almost 24 hrs after Oswald’s arrest) and
2/ that quite a few statements are taken on the 24th after Oswald has been given a set of wings…….. Gilbride thinks that by not presenting the evidence in the right context and dragging in philosophy makes his argument stand tall, the opposite is more true.
So far up to this point of this ‘essay’ everything mentioned can be skipped, it offers very little or no value at all, it solely contains Richard Gilbride’s personal innuendo.
The Stroud Document is also equally dismissed with again Gilbride’s apologising for how Adams and Styles could not have seen Baker and Truly while coming down swiftly wearing high heels on creaky wooden stairs. Truly allegedly heard Baker talking while the door was closed, but neither of them were hearing Adams and Styles clacking with their heels and making their way down those stairs. Dorothy Garner heard them descending while out of sight to her. An absolute stinker of an excuse. The ladies were already outside before Baker and Truly even attempted to go in and up. As simple as that. Gilbride ought to he ashamed producing this type of dross.
The arrows showing the alleged route on the 1st floor diagram are wrong, as per testimony they went diagonally through the shipping dept.
On page 25 Gilbride claims “Baker first caught a glimpse of Oswald somewhere between 50-60 seconds after the head shots.” Oh really? And the evidence for that is where exactly? Ah yes only in Gilbride’s head……that glimpse that got no mention until a few days before his W.C. testimony…. The timing aspect was a mess from day one, but Richard Gilbride and his fairy tales make matters a lot worse.
On the same page he claims “The November 27th Secret Service re-enactment film, at the 23 ½ minute mark, shows it closing unaided in only 1.8 seconds.”
See for yourself that this is rubbish, the film below (starts at the point of opening the door) and Barry Ernest’s testing in 1968 (3 seconds) shows it took longer that 1.8 seconds. Baker who only followed him by a few feet managed to open the door and have it closed in a few seconds and stop Oswald while Truly was just a few feet ahead and was on the 2nd or 3rd step up the stairs towards the 3rd floor. Pull the other one sunshine!
Gilbride again wants to apologise for the Baker and Truly encounter which never happened in the first place.
On page 26 Gilbride shows the Gary Murr drawing I put forward with my paper (he borrows a lot of graphics from my piece without properly crediting anyone!) and names it the vestibule.
On that same page he slanders Sean Murphy again without providing any linkage to it. Insiders know that Murphy got in contact with Sandra Styles and got some contradictory statements compared to what Barry Ernest presented in his book The Girl On The Stairs. There was some debate about this, but nothing like Gilbride dares to present, he is economical with the truth again. Gilbride’s hatred for Sean Murphy is more than evident. He acts like a sore loser who was outgunned and above all outclassed years ago.
Pages 27-30 are about the filmed interviews, the B&W ones for CBS and the biggest turd known to mankind The Trial Of LHO, held in London during the 70’s. Defence council Spence looks so weak with his questioning it is utterly laughable. The witnesses have all been instructed and coached by Vince Bugliosi (another filthy denier….) what to say. A fab example is Harold Norman’s testimony, just count the times how often he glances towards Bugliosi when questioning becomes a tad tough. With the CBS interviews it isn’t much better. Jim DiEugenio and Jerry Policoff wrote excellent articles on how CBS conducted itself with these interviews and the JFK Assassination overall.
So that is 30 pages without anything of real value, my suggestion: skip the lot!
Pages 31-40 are about Baker’s first statement, his FBI statement from Sept. 1964 and so on.
Again Gilbride makes a few serious mistakes.
1/ If we are to believe that Baker and Truly raced up those stairs then how comes there were several people inside the lobby? We know that Roy Edward Lewis was inside the vestibule and that Otis Williams had left the steps to go inside up too the 4th floor (yup using those same wooden stairs…). Other than that everyone was still outside. That by itself already indicates a much later arrival than has been presented.
2/ Then Richard Gilbride dismisses all newspaper reports for being brought up by overexcited newspaper reporters hungry for details, and even remembered incorrectly by the protagonists. This is how he classes journalism. You think that is a bad case of generalising then wait a little for another nugget further down.
3/ Gilbride digs into Baker’s first statement while padding himself on the back for doing, superfluous, research while complaining the Murphyites don’t do this, first of all the derogatory word has no impact and he ought to know that this started decades before Sean Murphy got involved and I personally have taken it much much further than any forum poster. Of course we not do superfluous research. It’s a complete waste of time and proves nothing nor does it debunk anything what has already been questioned before. (pages 31/39).
Then we finally reach the real juice: “Anatomy Of A Cherry Picker” and with that he means me and my paper. Thank you Richard, I looked through all the available evidence. Something he failed to do with his two earlier essays which resembled Swiss cheese. One could pick holes in these two bodies of work and conclude that they were rightfully ignored by the overwhelming majority of the JFK research community. for all these years. And only after my paper was released and awarded by Lancer and DPUK , combined with that huge chip on his shoulder did he get his finger out and produced this (s)hit piece.
Before I utterly destroy this typed up excrement on the second half of his ‘essay’ I should mention that it was my sole intention to collect everything available about this so called encounter to present a bigger picture. One thing that stood out were the huge amount of contradictions in statements, testimonies and newspaper reports. Which requires a lot more than your mundane explanation Richard!
He starts of with that I failed to address my counter-arguments against the lunchroom hoax hypothesis at the Education Forum, this is a lie, his dated beliefs were argued against at The Education Forum two years back. As a matter of fact his points were nullified by not just me, but also others. I know I am repeating myself……
See this thread at The Education Forum. Greg Parker on page 8 of that thread summed it up nicely then, and it is even more than applicable now.
“Fact: Baker wrote 3rd or 4th floor. Your opinion is that he was confused
Fact: Baker described a 165 pound 30 year old wearing a light tan jacket. Your opinion is that he was mistaken
Fact: Oswald allegedly claimed to buy one coke: your opinion is that he bought two.
Fact: Mrs. Reid stated Oswald wore a white t-shirt. Your opinion is she was mistaken
Fact: The re-enactments were done over and over again until they could make the timing work. Your opinion is that they was done over and over to “refresh” Baker’s memory
Fact: The will-call counter “bump” is a change to the original story given which was that Truly was already inside. Your opinion that it was just additional information is an opinion you’re entitled to. You are also entitled to the opinion that there is no elephant in the room.
It’s always instructive when someone whose opinions are not attracting any support of note, will start claiming that the support of other positions is merely due to sycophancy. Ouch-B.K.
As Terry (Martin-B.K.) said, people have long smelled something foul regarding the 2nd floor encounter. You are so tied up in trying to extract some sort of revenge, that you are actually falling back on Warren Commission apologist type arguments. Not bad coming from someone who believes the MJ12 garbage was what got Kennedy killed.”
Terry Martin and Ed Ledoux post excellent rebuttals and I myself have made a few posts, see for yourself and especially look at Page 16.
In this so called essay of his he writes“Kamp could not provide any substantive answers to my complaints.” Nothing more than a terrible lie, click on the link and check that page and the following ones out and see for yourself and you can conclude that Richard Gilbride is lying. When a ‘researcher’ has to resort to lying then I am more or less done communicating with them in any shape or form, I only make an exception here since there are 50 odd pages attacking me and the work I have produced.
Then Gilbride’s assumptions get the better of him and he fails in a rather spectacular fashion while addressing Truly’s deleted testimony. In the Sept 2017 release of my paper (V.3) I said that we tried to get hold of it and also wondered why the testimony was withheld, nothing else. Gilbride on the other hand scribbles down a fairy tale even Hans Christian Anderson would be jealous of. In the end this deleted testimony was nothing else than someone else reciting his testimony, there was nothing deleted about it all. For that the “blame” lies with either NARA or the WC. You will see in the V.4 update.
Then he questions why I wondered why Baker had not called the observation of a possible shooter in, which anyone with half a grain of common sense would wonder aloud since that would be proper police procedure no? Not according to Dick Gilbride…… My second question was why Baker did not seal off the building, I should have asked why did he not seal the front entrance and call others in? What cop goes inside a building with a gun man still inside on his own when several buddies are about ‘dancing’ behind the picket fence and the rail road yards. Baker was no Rambo, far from it.
We now know that Baker was standing between the TSBD and the Dal Tex building as became apparent during his WC testimony (and was eventually led to saying it was the TSBD) plus the Darnell film shows Baker veering to the right.
Then he posts two newspaper articles from Nov 24th and 25th which have no bearing since the lunch room encounter did not publicly exist until Nov 23rd around lunch time. And a ten year old child could come up with a handful more of those articles from after the 23rd repeating the fakery created by the D.P.D.
Gilbride then continues to attack every single piece concerning this case and cherry picks his way through it all, what he fails to realise (not a first…) is that I post everything that is available! Gilbride calls that a blunder and even starts stating the bloody obvious. I post all matters whether it supports my conclusions or not, but again his anger and his blindness prevents him from seeing that massive lump of wood swinging in front of his eyes, like the first two essays this third essay is becoming an utter joke and I wonder why I bother refuting this worthless crap and I am only halfway this shitty hit piece!
And it goes on and on in Gilbride’s minuscule world. So instead of wasting more time, I will post a few more utter rubbish remarks. I have work to do besides tearing Gilbride’s essay a new one so I am going to be a tad more selective.
Page 48. Does he realize that Sean Murphy would be acclaimed in Ireland if there was even a remote chance that his theory was true? But it’s a clunker, and he quit the research community because he can’t handle failure. Gilbride has no knowledge or evidence for this, again his grudge against Sean Murphy takes the upper hand and spite takes the upper hand.
Page 49. Gilbride is reaching big time as to Brennan’s encounter with Truly in Roy Bode’s interview and screws up so bad it had me rolling with laughter as he himself directly refutes that so called super fast entry by Baker and Truly. “The truth was that Brennan didn’t leave his wall perch until nearly 2 ½ minutes after the shooting.”
Page 50 Truly tried to account himself in bravery and knew full well he was taking large liberties with the facts for this 16-year-old reporter. Pure fiction! Gilbride deals with these matters, as they only exist in his head and nowhere else.
Page 52 He positions Roy Lewis outside instead of behind the glass, and uses Larry Rivera’s 2016 conference for this as evidence. I suggest you check that talk out, it is so wrong and badly put together that you will not thank me for wasting your time.
Page 53 He denies that Holmes was referring to the vestibule on the first floor, again scroll up and see what Holmes’ testimony says.
Page 69 contains a photographic still from the Cook film and this image shows Carolyn Arnold and two other ladies, whose ID has not been established at all. They are not Reid and Adams. This wishful rubbish was posted at the Duncan MacRae disinfo forum and never shown to have any substance to it whatsoever. I know as I worked on this with Linda Giovanna Zambanini. This is good research? He also lambasts me for not using footnotes, anyone else can see the interactive links to documents/pix and videos and besides plenty of material is inserted. That I overlooked one page of an affidavit is for Gilbride to have a go at me, yet his own footnotes are rubbish to use. What layman could possible use the non interactive notes at the bottom nor is there any further reference where to go to check up on his claims. Pot…kettle….geddit?
On page 70 he fantasises (“most probably” HA) about Oswald using the corridor instead of taking the alleged route through the second floor office which supposedly happened after the fake encounter in the lunch room, you couldn’t make this crap up but Richard Gilbride just does. Gilbride further claims that “Shelley- even though he denied this- had seen Oswald leave the building via the front landing.” and refers to his own essay to this as a footnote. How corrupted is this? Very, since there is no evidence Shelley saw him leave again this is just in Gilbride’s mind. Oswald said that he spoke with Shelley and asked if he could leave since no further work was going to be done that day. Shelley denied this. Even though this happened there is nothing that points that Shelley actually saw Oswald leave via the front entrance or even stood there after the assassination, Shelley was busy assisting the law enforcement officers in the building and not standing on the front steps another mistake by Gilbride. Billy Lovelady did see him leave after Oswald was stopped at the front door and Truly had vouched for him.
It’s getting boring, I know as I have to plough through this tripe!
Again, on page 71, he brings up Holmes’ testimony and tries to twist and turn it into his favour, yet fails again.
Pages 72-74 deal with Kent Biffle and him overhearing what Truly had said and pretends that the NYHT article quoting Ochus Campbell are coming from the same source, this is nothing short of misleading, a damn lie! He produces no evidence to back this up besides his deluded dream-like scenario. A very dirty game is being played here by Gilbride and it doesn’t work. And it goes on about the other newspaper reports using the same deplorable tactic and generalising that newspaper reports overall are inaccurate and lead to Chinese whispers, if you ask me Gilbride has had a hefty dose of them himself.
Carolyn Arnold is next on pages 76-78, and Gilbride’s presumptions are dead wrong. I will let the reader decide about this since I have rewritten that chapter for the V4 of the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter paper, and he could not have read it by the time he wrote this and it is even more detrimental to Carolyn Arnold’s statements. You will see soon for yourself.
Then we move to Oswald’s alibi at the bottom of page 78. Pay attention to the following: “He lied because he needed to protect his assignment to the 2nd-floor lunchroom. He did not want even to begin to expose the plot he had participated in. He knew full well that the 6th floor of the Depository was a key sniping position in the ambush of Kennedy. Saying he was on the ground floor at the time would buffer him from any suggestion that he was anywhere near being “upstairs in the building.” Is there any evidence available besides Gilbride’s delusions and lies? Of course not. Utter bunk!
Gilbride asserts that Fritz took notes only when Bookhout arrived, but there is no evidence for this and on top of that the notes are not contemporary (he speaks of ‘the deceased’) and in my second paper Anatomy Of LHO’s Interrogations I bring plenty of evidence that Fritz took no notes at that time! It looks like Jim Hosty was the only one taking some notes at that interrogation. He then starts to misinterpret the notes to such an effect that I start to wonder whether Gilbride actually has studied the material carefully. Bookhout’s and Hosty’s joint report clearly states: “claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola forhis lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. After hearing what had happened, he said that because of all the confusion there would be no work performed that afternoon so he decided to go home.” Bookhout’s solo report after Oswald was snuffed was a complete joke and made to fix Oswald as the solo killer of the President and encountered by Baker/Truly. There are some questionable bits that they directly contradict his first joint report. I point all this out in my paper.
Then at the bottom of page 81 (almost there thank fuck) he has the audacity to say “But what Bart forgets is that Shelley returned to the landing in time to vouch to Officer Welcome Barnett that Oswald was all right, that he worked there.” This is another lie, Shelley was nowhere to be seen outside from his return from the rail road yards until leaving the TSBD at about 13:30 and seen escorting Garcia and Williams to the police car. Shelley was busy helping the law inside the building, as per his statement. And Barnett was not checking people, according to De. Chief Lumpkin it was Eric Kaminski.
Page 86 contains the following whopper: “Any newspaper reader is fully aware that any article potentially contains misinformation, from the journalist or the interviewee. It is only an adjunct source for arriving at the historical truth- particularly in this instance when there are so many other sources of information available. And in this case the newspapers contained actual disinformation.” For a second I thought Gilbride meant his own writing as it is so succinctly described here, but no “all newspaper reports potentially contain misinformation.” Can this essay be any more shit?
From thereon this ”essay” descends deeper into the abyss with Richard Gilbride’s conclusions. I think I have spent enough time laying out the mistakes, the lies and the make believe scenarios by him that I cannot stomach this piece any longer.
Among all (former) ROKC staffers there is a broad consensus that the second floor lunch room encounter did not happen, but we disagree on some of the details. Merely due to lack of additional info but what Gilbride puts forward we and other people who are not members of ROKC unanimously agree that he is nothing more than a sore loser, stuck in beliefs that can only be maintained with innuendo and lies. Richard Gilbride is a bully and a fraud of which John McAdams could only be most proud of. His hit piece misses on every occasion, but a couple of mistakes for which I am thankful for as he took the time to go through it all. But he could have saved himself a lot of time writing his third essay since the whole thing could have been dealt with less than half a page of A4.
April 28-29 at Christchurch Uni in Canterbury DPUK will hold its annual seminar.
Preliminary program (STC)
Saturday 28th April
09.40m – 09.50am Introduction to the Seminar by Stuart Galloway
09.50am – 10.50am Harold “Skip” Rydberg by Barry Keane
10.50am – 11.10am Break: Coffee/Tea
11.10am – 12.10pm Interrogations of LHO-1 by Bart Kamp
12.10pm – 1.40pm LUNCH That means of to the pub ;)
1.40pm – 2.40pm Interrogations of LHO-2 by Bart Kamp
2.40pm – 3.50pm ZR/RIFLE, William Harvey, & QJ WIN by Larry Hancock
3.50pm – 4.10pm Break: Tea/Coffee
4.10pm – 5.10pm Q & A with Malcolm Blunt with B Kamp
5.10pm – 6.00pm Possible Film or extend Larry’s talk from
Dinner at the Abbotts Barton Hotel – 7.30pm for 8.00pm
Sunday 29th April
09.30am – 10.30am The DPUK Auction with Mike Dworetsky
10.30am – 12.00pm Evidence of Gunmen in DP.by David Percox
12.00pm – 12.30pm The Dallas Police by Ian Griggs
12.30pm – 1.40pm LUNCH ( Buffet in the Lecture Theatre)
1.40pm – 2.40 pm Q & A with John Newman and B.Kamp
2.40pm – 3.40pm Jim Di Eugenio JFK’s foreign policy and also the recent released files. The impact of Donald Trump and how they were ignored by the media.
3:40pm – 3.50pm Closure of the Seminar by Stuart Galloway.
This is an interesting set by Jim Murray. First we have Oswald being led down the corridor, then we see him on his way to a line up. Then three shots of Wade’s press conference, and then Murray must have gotten up early on the 23rd and started shooting the T.S.B.D. from all possible angles. The Hertz sign displays a time of 7:43 am. And two shots of the Beckley residence.
All photos Jim Murray BlackStar. All scans by ROKC of the Richard E. Sprague archive at the National Archives in Wa.
Let’s begin with Roy Truly’s testimony where he sheds light on what was done about this just after the shooting.
He tells a scenario that Fritz was notified of Oswald being missing around 1 PM. Had that been the case the APB going out would have been a lot more specific than the generic message of
Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is supposed to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle, – repeat, unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build. No further description at this time or information, 12:45 p.m.
Had Truly known about this at 1 PM then it would have been broadcast as such.
MR. TRULY. So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there. First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell–I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, “Have you seen him around lately,” and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, “I have a boy over here missing. I don’t know whether to report it or not.” Because I had another one or two out then. I didn’t know whether they were all there or not. He said, “What do you think”? And I got to thinking. He said, “Well, we better do it anyway.” It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy’s name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn’t know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn’t you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?
Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here “I don’t know whether it amounts to anything or not.” And I gave him his description. And he says, “Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz.”
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn’t hear it. And then he turned to me and says, “Now we will go upstairs”.
So we got on one of the elevators, I don’t know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn’t know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, “What is it, Mr. Truly,” or words to that effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, “Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.
And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.
There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who Oswald was. I told the reporter, “You must have ears like a bird, or something. I don’t want to say anything about a boy I don’t know anything about. This is a terrible thing.” Or words to that effect.
I said, “Don’t bother me. Don’t mention the name. Let’s find something out.”
So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn’t. Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? Mr. TRULY. That I can’t answer. I don’t remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn’t know it. I didn’t see them find them, and I didn’t know at the time I don’t know how long they had the things.
And what the hell was Truly doing in the sniper’s next before they found the shells and the rifle??? Alan Ford already made mention of this at The Deep Politics Forum
Shelley is gone to City Hall and he is there for a good few hours and I reckon he left with some of the 6th floor workers. Garcia and Williams, get treated right by the cops.
He sees Oswald being paraded in by the DPD and remarks that ‘he’ works at the TSBD and he is his mgr. Shelley’s statements are taken by Det. C.W. Brown who makes mention of this in his report.
C.W. Brown on the third floor corridor just outside the Robbery and Homicide office where Oswald has just been transferred to and can be overheard demanding “Hygienic Rights” Nov 23 1963. Screen grab B.K.
Report on officer’s duties in regards the President’s Murder- C.W. Brown.
In the video below Billy Lovelady is sitting while Oswald is being led past him into another room
What he does not do is point him out as the man missing at 1 PM before he left. Now why not as that would have sealed the deal. Same as Marrion Baker’s supposedly IDing Oswald as the man he stopped when nothing can be produced to confirm this, not even Marvin Johnson BS report can. Baker would have been inside Fritz’s office there and then confirming him as the man he apprehended.
Shelley confers with Truly upon his return and brings back the news that Oswald is brought in for killing a cop.
Add on that that same afternoon Oswald’s commie credentials were broadcast all over.
Then there is the whole matter of the missing employees. Most people who are researching this will name Charles Douglas Givens who was absent for a while and Shelley said that they were going to send out an APB, but he just happened to return in time.
This does not rhyme with the Revill List at at all. There are many more employees missing.
What we can see from this list is that:
Oswald is mentioned on the top of it. Which lends more credence to the slighting by Roger Craig and other witnesses seeing a person resembling Oswald running down the grassy slope and getting into a Nash Rambler.
Shelley’s name is nowhere to be seen. His departure and return are not recorded at all.
And here comes the hammer the following people all left at 12:15. But this list shows that:
Lloyd Viles arrived back at 3:10 PM.
Virgie Rackley, Dolores Kounas and Mrs William Parker all returning at 2:55 PM.
Virgie Rackley returning at just before 3 PM and seen here talking to Kent Biffle inside the TSBD. Had Biffle known then his questioning and reporting would have been different.
Virgie Rachley being interviewed by Kent Biffle
But Biffle did say something about all this in 1982 in the Dallas Morning News.
. . . only two of us [reporters] had arrived at the ambush building [ the Depository] by this point. . . . Getting in was no problem. I just hid my press badge . . . and went in with the first wave of cops. . . . Hours dragged by. The building superintendent showed up with some papers in his hand. I listened as he told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a roll call. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call that had been inconclusive because several employees were missing. This time, however all were accounted for except Oswald. I jotted down the Oswald information. . . . Neither the police in the building nor the superintendent knew that Oswald already was under arrest. Oswald’s name was not called out until after 3 PM!
Mr. BALL – What time did they tell you to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER – It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don’t know what time it was.
Mr. BALL – Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?
Mr. FRAZIER – Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
Mr. BALL – Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?
Mr. FRAZIER – Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.
Mr. BALL – Asked you who you were with?
Mr. FRAZIER – Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn’t think anything about it.
Mr. BALL – Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER – No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. BALL – At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER – No, sir; I don’t believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley’s office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL – Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER – Right.
Add on Harold Norman’s HSCA interview. In it at roughly 21 mins in.
Q: Prior to the time they let you go for the day, was everybody looking for Oswald?
Norman. I don’t think so.
Q: There was no speculation about Oswald being the shooter?
Norman: Not that I recall.
About 7 minutes later.
Q: You gave as I understand it, you gave your name and address and identified yourself just like everyone else was doing.
Norman: Right.
Q: …that worked there, they was making some kind of head count?
Norman: Right.
Q: Was that right?
Norman: Yes.
Q: Did you know who was missing at the time of that headcount?
Norman: No, I just can’t recall who was missing.
Q: All right did they tell you anyone was missing?
Norman: I don’t recall if they did that either.
Q: Did you know Oswald was missing?
Norman: No.
Harold Norman HSCA interview
Harold Norman HSCA interview
In CE 1381 (the FBI 6 questions for all TSBD employees in one file) Norman’s statement says he left the T.S.B.D. at 2 PM.
Then you can add the Martin film as evidence as well. This film was supposedly shot between 12:50 and 13:00. This film shows Lovelady, Williams and Garcia outside waiting on the steps to get in.
Now then if the roll call is bogus then Will Fritz went to City Hall to check upon a suspect brought in for the Tippit Killing, nothing more. The rest is pure fairy tales made up after the fact. Plus Truly and Shelley were covering their rears for letting him go 15 minutes after the assassination.
Any questions?
Additional research by Ed Ledoux, Greg Parker and Donald Willis.
Merry X-Mas everyone, hope you are all having a joyful time with your closest ones.
I was going to release an update to The Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald, but that is a bit on the back burner for about a month or so. I hope to be able to do it by end of Jan. 2018. At this stage there are already 45 pages extra, but I need to work more on a few chapters and I am awaiting some more stuff which I’d like to include once I get my hands on it. It’ll be worth the wait ;)
There is also another update to the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter coming early next year. Only about thirteen extra pages this time.
Here is a rather revealing FBI Document ID-ing Paul Barger of the DPD as confidential informant for the FBI and also brings up Hugh Aynesworth up in a rather unfavourable light. And that is not for the first time. When is someone actually going to confront Hugh Aynesworth and his actions?
There is quite a discussion going on about this at the Education Forum.
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for snail mailing it to me.
Yesterday two years ago I uploaded The Prayer Man movie, it has managed to be seen just under 108,000 times. That averages roughly just over 1,000 views per week! An amazing result for which I have to thank everyone who took the effort to go through it all. It is a lot of info to digest in 100 minutes.
I have said that there will be a follow up and there is still none, but I will start working on it over the next few weeks and then it will be released in shorter instalments as 2 years later there is even more information to divulge.
Here is an article from the New York Herald Tribune which has been quoted from many times in various articles, here is the chance to read the whole article and its pix in full. It was published in the NYHT May 24th 1964. Great read actually, and this was pubbed before the Warren Report was issued.
Billy Lovelady Doorway Man
Billy Lovelady Doorway Man
Billy Lovelady Doorway Man
Billy Lovelady Doorway Man
Add on Dec 13th:
From Larry Sneed’s No More Silence
In May 1964, while the Warren Report was still being assembled, Don Bonafede, a reporter for the now defunct New York Herald Tribune, called me from here in town and said that he was in Dallas to do a story on a very controversial photograph I had made at the time the President was assassinated. All he wanted to know, he said, was the information I had already given the
authorities, and he would be satisfied with that information. I told him that no authorities had questioned me, including the Warren Commission people. “That’s my story!” he shouted. Of course, he was referring to the picture showing the questionable person, story set the authorities to work, and eventually even the FBI sent two men to visit and interview me. What had happened was that Bonafede’s story was picked up by columnists all across the country who then began asking if other witnesses had been overlooked like the photographer who was only fifteen feet from the limousine when Kennedy was killed.
Dealey Plaza UK had one of its meets at The Flying Horse again, and we had a jolly good time beers flowed and the subject was Tippit.
Funny how things go. Joseph McBride’s book Into The Nightmare is the best book on this subject and I read it 3-4 years ago, but what I had forgotten about is that McBride had interviewed Jim Leavelle and what he said is most interesting and naturally I will add these quotes to the 2nd paper Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations. Leavelle is sinking deeper and deeper if you read what is below and in my paper.
When asked by McBride why Oswald was not arraigned for the killing of J.F.K. Leavelle replied:
“Now the thing was, the Captain (Will Fritz, the Head of Homicide, who was running the interrogation of Oswald) asked me if I had enough to make a case on him for the Tippit killing. And I said, ”Oh yeah. I got plenty on that.” I had him identified by about three or four people. And so Cap said, “Well go ahead and make a tight case on him in case we have trouble making this one on the presidential shooting.” “So that was one reason he was arraigned early on the Tippit shooting. But I was thinking that we also arraigned him somewhere down the line on the shooting of the president. But I wouldn’t swear to that offhand.” (P.235/236).
When asked how his department had reacted to the shooting of the president Leavelle said: “As the old saying goes back then, “it was no different than a South Dallas nigger killin’” When you get right down to it – because it was just another murder inside the city lines of Dallas that we could handle. It was just another murder to me. And I have handled hundreds of ‘em. So it wasn’t no big deal.” (P 240).
Final set for now, thanks again to Gary Murr for these.
These are drawings of the 3rd to the 7th floor, there is a page with measurements of the front steps and the pavement and a page with notes on the TSBD building’s height in comparison to the DalTex building and The Records Building.
All these drawings shed more light about the TSBD dimensions, way more than the WR versions.
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