Sep
03
The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.
Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
- Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
- Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., but others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly at different locations. Pages 24-25.
- Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
- In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
- Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
- Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
- Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
- In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states “they saw no one there” Page 46.
- Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
- Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
- Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the sho0ting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
- Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
- Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
- Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
- Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
- Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
- Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
- While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
- Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
- Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
- The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
- The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
- During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
- The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
- Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
- Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
- Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
- Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
- The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B. throwing the roll call of the T.S.B.D. inhabitants Pages 112-113.
- Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
- Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
- The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
- Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
- Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. Pages 136-146.
- The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
Aug
31
Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations in a Nutshell.
Featured in National Review magazine. Scan from NARA.
Click HERE (32.9MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be viewed here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- Oswald is arrested inside the Texas Theatre and according to Sergeant Gerald Hill Oswald demands a lawyer and complains about police brutality (page 22).
- Frank Underwood is inside the same elevator Oswald is going up to the third floor with. Oswald tells him he did not kill anybody (page 23).
- Gerald Hill who is being interviewed twice shortly after Oswald’s arrest and drop off on the third floor states Oswald’s name in both instances. There is no mention of the Hidell name (page 24).
- Before Oswald is talked to by Rose and Stovall he is frisked by Charles Truman Walker, who was present during his arrest at the Texas Theatre and is part of the group of policemen dropping Oswald off on the third floor of City Hall. He does not find anything in his pockets (page 25). Yet before Oswald’s first line-up with Helen Markham detectives Sims and Boyd find 5 bullets and a bus ticket in his pockets almost 2.5 hours later (page 83).
- Kent Biffle destroys the roll call(s) scenario from Roy Truly from a timing perspective (pages 29-30).
- While Oswald is being talked to by detectives Gus Rose and Richard Stovall it emerges that both detectives contradict themselves during their Warren Commission testimony when it comes to whether Oswald used the Hidell or Oswald name by way of identification (pages 27-28).
- In the past few decades detective Jim Leavelle has positioned himself as the person who interrogated Oswald before Captain Will Fritz did, whereas the statements by him during his Warren Commission testimony and his own written statement contradict this (pages 30-34).
- Detective Joe Cody inserts himself as well as the person who talked to L.H.O. before Will Fritz interrogated him. This is only backed up by him and no documentation (pages 34-36).
- T.L. Baker confirms it was Rose and Stovall who had a chat with Oswald before he was interrogated by Will Fritz (page 37).
- Before Will Fritz returns to City Hall from the T.S.B.D. he makes a detour via Sheriff Bill Decker’s office. Nothing is known about what was discussed between the two (page 38).
- Will Fritz did not audio record the interviews and could have borrowed equipment to do so, nor used a stenographer, during the first interrogation James Hosty is the only person who took notes. Fritz’s handwritten notes are not contemporary.
- During Will Fritz’s first interrogation, according to his handwritten notes, Oswald clearly stated where he was at the time of the shooting. “Out with Bill Shelley, in front.” (page 40). A handwritten document by F.B.I. agent James Hosty states “Then went outside to watch P. Parade” (page 54).
- This very same document by Hosty states that Oswald got his coke for his lunch. And this is repeated in the typed up joint Hosty-Bookhout report (page 65).
- B.I. agent James Bookhout changes this narrative in his solo report from Nov. 24th to an encounter inside the second floor lunch room (page 66).
- After Oswald’s first interrogation with Will Fritz, he is being questioned by Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service. Oswald thinks he is a lawyer and once known to him that he is S.S. he wonders whether Sorrels is supposed to get him an attorney (page 69).
- There are plenty of indicators that the line-ups were not as impartial as they should have been (pages 84-85).
- The first line-up with Helen Markham is nothing short of a drama as she needs to be sedated beforehand (page 93).
- Helen Markham during her W.C. testimony denied no less than six times recognising Lee Oswald as Tippit’s killer (pages 86-88).
- Marrion Baker overhears Oswald shouting ‘I want a lawyer’ during the second interrogation (page 95)
- Roger Craig sees and reports that Oswald left around 12:42 from the T.S.B.D. running down the hill in front of the T.S.B.D. and confronts him later on in the office of Will Fritz (pages 96 – 106).
- During the second line-up Cecil McWatters has difficulty picking Lee Oswald out as the man who was on his bus (page 104).
- Sam Guinyard and Ted Callaway who work not far away from the location where Tippit was shot, contradict each other during their W.C. testimonies (pages 109-112).
- Ted Callaway also mentions a second person involved in the shooting, and according to Domingo Benavides he asked him what happened and which direction the killer had gone.
- Galloway’s and Guinyard’s statements are taken before the line-up. The two men’s handwritten statements are taken and the No. 2 ID is added on the typed statement after (page 108).
- The biggest absentee from this group of men is Domingo Benavides, he was closest to the Tippit killing and must have been able to identify Tippit’s killer. The D.P.D. does not get a statement from him nor is he asked to identify the killer during the line-up(s) and he only appears in front of the W.C. in March 1964 (page 113).
- At about 19:10 hrs Oswald is arraigned for the murder of officer Tippit by Justice of the Peace David Johnston. There are several detectives present, plus Captain Fritz and Chief of Police Jesse Curry. Their remembrance as to what exactly happened is hazy to say the least (pages 114-116).
- Shortly after the arraignment Oswald is being filmed complaining of not having legal representation present during this hearing and again denies having shot anyone (page 117).
- Oswald’s second line-up for the Davis sisters has the Dallas Police put two blonds in the lineup along with Oswald and Ables (page 118-121).
- After the line-up Oswald appears in the corridor again and asks for legal representation, and also mentions that he did not shoot anyone and that people keep asking him that. At the end of that very short walk back into Fritz’s office he exclaims to be a patsy (pages 122-123).
- Shortly after Henry Wade arrives at City Hall and is surprised to see Jim Allen inside Will Fritz’s Robbery & Homicide office. Allen is a former assistant D.A. and at that time a private citizen yet is a close friend of Fritz (pages 123-124).
- Buell Frazier is brought in the evening and interrogated. There is a report by Frazier that Will Fritz brought in a statement for him to sign that made him an accomplice to Oswald’s killing of J.F.K. to which Frazier refused to go along with. Fritz raised his hand following that, after which Frazier promised him a hell of a fight. Later on that evening Frazier is subjected to a polygraph test, the results of this test have diappeared (pages 126-128).
- In the evening Oswald has his fingerprints and palmprints taken, but the Dallas police also takes paraffin tests of his hands and his right cheek to determine whether he fired a weapon. E. ‘Pete’ Barnes had not applied this test to a suspect’s face ever before. Nor would it not have made one iota of difference in determining whether Oswald had fired a rifle that day and the tests itself can be questioned for the fact that Oswald’s finger prints were taken before the paraffin tests (pages 129-137).
- Assistant D.A. Bill Alexander, along with Jim Allen, wants to charge Oswald with J.F.K.’s murder as part of an international communist conspiracy. Higher ups make him retract this (pages 138-143).
- Howard Brennan appears at City Hall to view a line-up and fails to I.D. Oswald as the sixth floor shooter (pages 144-152).
- B.I. agent Manning Clemments interrogates Oswald on his physical description and background information (pages 153-158).
- Detective John Adamcik (who speaks a little Russian) interrogates Oswald before Oswald makes his appearance at the press conference (pages 159-160).
- Greg Olds and a few of his A.C.L.U. colleagues arrive at City Hall late in the evening to ascertain whether Oswald is having any legal representation, they are given the run around by some of Fritz’s people (pages 162-169).
- In the very early morning of Nov. 23rd Oswald stands in front of the press exclaiming having no idea what the whole situation is about and asks a few times for legal representation in the very short time he is actually allowed to talk (pages 174-179).
- After the press conference Oswald is taken to jail and Henry Wade talks to the press. During this Wade makes mention of a fictitious cab driver by the name Daryl Click. More importantly Wade has to admit that while the papers have been signed to accuse Oswald of killing J.F.K. at least an hour before Oswald is yet to find out. There are strong indicators this was never done (pages 181-183 and 186-223).
- Oswald has finger prints and his mug shot taken after the press conference, he also has to hand over his shirt which is taken in by the F.B.I. and flown to Washington shortly after (pages 184-185).
- Besides Oswald’s bus ride a cab ride is inserted in Fritz’s interrogation notes from the first interrogation on the 23rd, but also the Domino Room situation with junior and one other Negro gets a mention. Fritz barely investigates this, as this would provide Oswald an alibi for the time period after 12:00 whereas J. E. Hoover wants a follow up handled promptly (pages 204-207).
- James Bookhout’s, Thomas Kelley’s reports and Fritz’s notes make a first mention of John Abt during the Saturday morning interrogation (pages 206, 210 and 213).
- During this very same interrogation the Hidell name pops up for the first time according to the reports by Fritz, Kelley and Bookhout and the W.C. Commission testimony of Forest Sorrels (pages 208, 210, 213, 215 and 217).
- Inspector Thomas J Kelley of the Secret Service writes in his report of that interrogation that he asked him ‘if he viewed the parade and he said he had not’ this cannot be corroborated by Fritz’s or Bookhout’s notes at all (pages 209-214).
- Joe Molina, of the accounting department of the T.S.B.D., arrives at the D.P.D. after a visit by some heavy weights in the middle of night who searched through his house for a few hours and come up with nothing of significance. He is being kept at the D.P.D. for roughly 7 hours and loses his job about one month later as Chief Curry names him to the press as a subversive person (pages 218-223).
- Harold McDervid, a Chicago lawyer, has offered council to Oswald via telegram after trying via the phone before. His messages are filed away never to reach Oswald (pages 224-225).
- Marina and Marguerite Oswald get to see Lee for about half an hour.
- Oswald is interrogated again for a brief period mainly to ascertain where his belongings are and what his place(s) of residence are (page 226).
- Oswald could not call anyone until Nov 23rd at 13:40 almost 24 hours after his arrest. This is his first attempt at calling John Abt (page 229).
- Oswald’s line-up in front of William Whaley and William Scoggins. This time he is accompanied by three fellow prisoners, of which one is of Mexican heritage. During the transfer to the line-up Oswald is heard bitterly complaining about the difference in appearance by just wearing a t-shirt to anyone who can hear it (231-233).
- William Whaley identifies the wrong man (No. 2) as the killer of Tippit. Oswald was No. 3, and Whaley needed to correct himself during his W.C. testimony. Whaley also admitted signing a statement before he was taken to the line-up and again had to correct himself. Nor did he read the statement before signing it. Whaley’s W.C. testimony with regards to what Oswald was wearing is enough to disqualify him as a reliable witness. (pages 233-242).
- William Scoggins had seen a picture of Oswald in the paper on the morning of the 23r and he described the assailant going west before the murder, this would exclude Oswald being the killer as Helen Markham said the assailant was travelling east (pages 242-246).
- Robert Oswald gets to visit his brother Lee for about ten minutes after a four hour wait, during the conversation they have Lee tells his brother to not form any opinion on the so- called evidence (pages 248-253).
- Lee Oswald makes another call, one of which to Ruth Pain who is anything but helpful. Nobody knows at that time where his wife, Marina, is (pages 254-260).
- Louis Nichols visits Oswald in jail to enquire about whether Oswald has legal representation (pages 261-265).
- Oswald can be heard during a transfer towards Fritz’s office demanding hygienic rights (page 266).
- During the interrogation following the transfer the back yard photos are introduced to Oswald. He denies it is him in the photographs (pages 267-271).
- After this interrogation Oswald is led down the corridor again and is captured saying he “emphatically denies these charges” (page 271).
- Shortly after that Will Fritz appears in front of the reporters and declares Oswald being the killer of The President without going into evidence (pages 272-273).
- In the evening of Nov. 23rd when Oswald comes out of the jail elevator room Marrion Baker happens to stand very near the entrance. Upon spotting Oswald he ducks away (page 273).
- After returning to his cell Oswald makes another phone call which happens to last 30 minutes (page 276).
- An alleged Raleigh call to/from Oswald to John Hurt never happened (pages 277-279).
- On Sunday morning Oswald is interrogated one last time. Postal Inspector Harry Dean Holmes is a new addition to the group of people interrogating him, his report and W.C. testimony of that particular interrogation nullifies the second floor lunch room encounter (pages 281-302).
- Following this interrogation Oswald is transferred and subsequently shot and killed by Jack Ruby (pages 303-307).
- After Oswald’s killing a piece of paper with phone numbers is found on him. One of these numbers has not been in use since 1956 (page 309).
- By having a close look at Fritz’s report after time stamping the daily reports and statements it has become abundantly clear that Will Fritz twisted things round, not in favour of Oswald’s innocence of shooting Tippit and J.F.K., but to ascertain his guilt (pages 310-324).
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
Jul
25
Anatomy Of Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations Vol II
Photo by Shel Hershorn
In Dec. 2016 I started to work on the second paper, Anatomy Of Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations, after I had released the first Volume of Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter a few months prior. I can now safely say that I have finally finished this beast of a paper. As that is how it felt, I have given it way more time than I intended to and at certain points in the last year I just had to put it aside as it just kept going on and on. Especially when I was granted access to Malcolm Blunt’s archive where I found some key documents that cemented this thing just a wee bit more. In the end this instalment (Vol. 2) is better than I could have hoped for due to the subterfuge of evidence I managed to get my hands on and which are pasted inside the paper and linked to it.
Oswald facing the press guarded by M.G. Hall, R.M Sims, E. Boyd and T.L. Baker
The two hour talk I did in April 2018 at Canterbury Christchurch University was a summarisation of what was going to be released a short while after. But then I decided to change the whole thing. Since its original release the paper had accumulated an extra 150 pages and it had become too cluttered with info that had no real bearing on the actual period while Oswald was incarcerated.
The other self critique I had was that it was nowhere close to the quality of the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter paper. The info was there but it was just a huge swamp. So decided to try the idea of putting it in a rough time line setting instead.
This was easier said than done and it has taken me a year just to do this. Quite a few reports and interviews summarised that weekend and it was quite a job to peel the material layer by layer and get it in the right time period and setting. No doubt things will get more material added on at a later date, but for now this will have to do.
The only other person that made an attempt on timing the happenings around Oswald that weekend was Mae Brussell. She managed to kick things off with the limited material available at that time.
I hope you enjoy reading this pretty long read, which is filled with documents, pictures and videos. And quite a lot of external links to boot.
Going to end with especially thanking Malcolm Blunt, Ed Ledoux and Alan Dale for proof reading this paper.
View the Anatomy of Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations Paper. Opens new tab. 331 Pages – 32MB.
Mar
23
Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter V5 March 2019.
It has been a year since my last update and in that year’s time I have been handed a few key pieces of evidence that I have added to the first paper. I have added, edited and deleted text and some documents and a video.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.
You can read and download the paper HERE.
Jan
16
The most stubborn plonker in the village is at it again. Releasing a set of essays relating to the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. Obviously the wishful thinking and assumptions just pile up like there is no tomorrow. I already tore his previous work a new one, in short it was rubbish!
Let’s have a look at a few bits.
From the “Lunchroom” essay: Their paths should have intersected, but they didn’t. It is safe to conclude that Adams & Styles passed by Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom.
If Richard Gilbride had paid attention to the W.C. testimony of Roy Truly then he would have noticed that Roy Truly said that he leaned in, meaning his feet were still on the landing and that he peeked through, allegedly, while the door was held open! Furthermore has Gilbride ever paid attention to the size of the actual space between the landing and the lunch room door?
Second floor lunch room and corridor entry. Click to enlarge.
This is so small, no wonder Truly said he leaned in as it would have made no sense in a physical way for three people to stand there, even with Oswald being inside the lunch room for two or three feet, according to Baker.
Anything but with extraordinary confidence Richard!
2. On page 3 Richard Gilbride gives Adams 8 seconds to clear each floor going down (based on what?), whereas 5 would be more accurate, the amount of steps are not that many for anyone, whether in heels or not, to clear in 8 seconds unless they were doing it on one foot, they were rushing down those few stairs. That by itself proves to be already problematic for his timings overall.
On page 4 the first floor encounter is being described, the one that was attributed to Shelley and Lovelady and the girls, and which was false and made up by Jim Leavelle in Feb. 1964 when he interviewed Victoria Adams.
The man she and Styles encounter is in all likelihood Eddie Piper (“A tall black man”). Eddie Piper who stated during his W.C. in two sessions, as the first one did not nail things down enough to a satisfactory result for the W.C. Piper said during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting already, and consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds.
Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.”
On page 5 Gilbride makes a catastrophic mistake by assuming Baker races up those stairs in the Couch and Darnell film. Not only does the Couch film swerve to the left and away far quicker to Elm St and not even capture the front stairs. The Darnell film in its final moment before swerving to the left shows Baker at best in front of the pavement which is at least 10 feet away from the bottom step of the TSBD steps. He assumes (which he does a little too often) that Baker is on course for the steps whereas nothing could be further removed from the truth. Marrion Baker is veering to the right and was on his way between the TSBD and the DalTex building as he was not certain where the shots had come from. His W.C. testimony shows clearly he was not certain at all where the shots came from.
Gilbride omits that Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor!
In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs as well.
On page 6 and 7 it turns into a shambles and Gilbride brings Dorothy Garner’s statement through the Stroud document in play in conjunction with the descent of Adams and Styles and the ascent of Baker and Truly. Since Gilbride is dead wrong with these 2 and 2 crossing each other on the second floor it can be stated with great certainty that his calculations are way off and simply not true again.
“This heavy-duty door helped to muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet. Truly, Baker and Oswald were in an intense, confrontational situation just inside the lunchroom door frame. Even if they heard some noise from those high heels, it was only high heels- irrelevant to the gestalt- and they quickly forgot about it. ” This phrase on the bottom of page 7, in its entirety is baseless speculation.
On page 8 the assumptions continue, but I cannot be bothered to dive into every cherry in this terrible piece. And furthermore Sean Murpy has left this ‘scene’ so he cannot defend his actions, I only defend mine. Only to mention that he mentions SS inspector Kelley being present at 16:45 at Oswald’s second interrogation which he was not, he did not arrive until hours later in the evening.
Enough on this one.
Finally what is objectionable is the lack of mentioning one foot note or source in this essay. This is something he lambasted me for, missing the odd bit. Yet here we have ten pages without one referral.
Nice work……..eh no.
**************************************************************************************************************************
From Furthering The Lunchroom Evidence, his latest attempt….
On page 1 Gilbride makes the mistake that Thomas Kelley was present during the interrogations with Oswald while Baker was there. This is wrong as Kelley did not appear until Oswald’s 3rd at just before 8 PM. Kelley said in his WC testimony he arrived in the evening from Kentucky and not in the afternoon. Nor is Kelley listed as a participant of the 2nd interrogation. Sorrels and Lawson were there though.
Nor was Hosty present, Hosty was only there during the first interrogation.
Then some of the sorriest speculations are drummed up for poor ol’ Marrion Baker that the reader ought to stop right there and then, and ask for a bucket.
“Baker’s train of thought interrupted- which led to a couple of vague descriptions in the affidavit when describing his location within the unfamiliar Book Depository. Baker was
suddenly immersed in a situation where any accusatory statements he made could be misinterpreted adversely, later in a legal setting. And he apparently reacted with police
discipline and remained quiet about what he recognized. The less said, the better. But he was quite mindful of this omission. And as soon as his affidavit was typed up he
brought it into Marvin Johnson’s office. And confided to Johnson that this suspect was the same guy he’d encountered down at the Depository. He’d even “started to search the man.”
I am actually accusing Gilbride of lying and this part by itself shows that Richard Gilbride has not learned one iota from his exercise over a year ago which I rightly nailed to the cross then.
The BS continues with Baker recognising Oswald and exclaiming that he was the man encountered as such. There is no proof for this besides Johnson’s report, who even mentions that Baker frisked him which he did not, and that Baker picked him out in a line-up. Which he did not.
If Baker, as according to Johnson had recognised Oswald as that man encountered o the 3rd or 4th floor then this would have been brought up during those interrogation right there and then! And Oswald would have had a much harder time there and then, but no….the 2nd floor encounter did not become public near noon on the 23rd. At least after two more interrogations!!!!
The speculations continue until the end of page 6 and it is quite painful how someone can actually write this stuff based on his own deluded assumptions which are nothing but a terrible hoax.
That Gilbride has made a pact with one of the worst internet deniers in this scene by the name of Brian Doyle is nothing short of a surprise, and he even brings up one of the worst interviews ever done by Brian Doyle and the grand kids of Sarah Stanton. This interview is known for Brian Doyle leading the ladies during this interview. Doyle also shoots himself in the foot with the hearsay answer that Sarah Stanton asked Oswald was going to go out for lunch and watch the parade and at that time was holding a soda. That is before lunch! Therefore killing of any lunch room encounter, any encounter with Mrs Robert Reid after the Baker & Truly encounter as well. Yet here is Richard Gilbride using this crap for his own benefit.
What Gilbride does very well is to leave the embarrassing part out of Brian Doyle making a complete mess of himself by trying to put Sarah Stanton in the position of Prayer Man wearing a wig for professional reasons, yes dear reader a real mind boggle. Wearing a wig for pro reasons……just so she can be seen as Prayer Man.
The massive speculation by Gilbride and the lying by Brian Doyle at various points just to stitch his own version of the evidence together has turned this whole thing into a massive joke with these two disinfo clowns.
Oct
17
Almost 4 years ago, March 2015 to be precise, Carmine Savastano had a go at trying to bring Prayer Man down on his blog named after his book Two Princes and a King. Neither me or any other ROKCer was aware of this post. The article was updated last in Dec 2017.
Carmine departed from ROKC shortly before he wrote this, or was kicked off the forum, whoever you wish to believe. The core members had enough of his constant arguing about evidence. I was not really there when all this happened, I did not seriously partake until Jan. 2015 myself.
Now having read Savastano’s blog post just now I can honestly say that his work or better yet his understanding of Prayer Man is not very good, as a matter of fact I rate it as high as Doyle’s comprehension of the case. The difference is that whenever Doyle is in a tight spot he uses Harvey and Lee to get himself out of it. How convenient it is to use Oswald’s ‘double’ when it becomes impossible to clear yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself. But that is a different story. Let’s stick with the subject matter which is this blog post by him.
I will quote some from the article written by Carmine Savastano and write my comments down below in bold. Just wish to add that this is by no means a personal attack, it is a rebuttal to some of the arguments that are not only used by him, but by others as well who seem to lack to see the big picture and only use some of the evidence that is around.
1/The “Prayer Man” is similar to many other supposed “breakthroughs” coined by various people in the time since President Kennedy’s death. These include the Doorway Man, the Badge Man, the Black Dog Man, the Red Bandana Man, and the Black Hole Man, among many others.
I do not even know of the last two individuals, but to compare Prayer Man with Badge Man and Doorway Man is already a huge mistake.
Doorway Man was already cleared up the same evening, as the F.B.I. went to Billy Lovelady and he picked himself out from the table sized enlargement of the Altgens 6 Photograph. And Badge Man is not supported by anything but a colouring in, you could colour in a a pink elephant and try and make people believe that this is what is standing behind the picket fence. Looking at a very large b&w scan of the Moorman Polaroid does not show anything of a human outline at all.
Prayer Man is supported by evidence, be it circumstantial, but it is not something that should be disregarded. All this can be found in the interrogations reports and testimonies from Will Fritz, Jim Hosty and Harry Dean Holmes. Something Savastano doesn’t even touch nor makes mention of.
2/No witness testimony in the immediate area supports Oswald’s presence and not a single witness identifies him in the area during the shots.
Almost correct (Carolyn Arnold’s statement), but what Savastano omits from his writings is:
The primary statements by Shelley and Lovelady i/e do not contain a word about Oswald at all, as they were taken before Oswald was taken in. Once they witnessed Oswald’s arrival at City Hall, he was brought in as a cop killer, not as the shooter of J.F.K. Now who in their right mind would associate themselves with a cop killer?
Nor did anyone mention the negro on the bottom of the steps, Carl Edward Jones or Joe Molina who stood next to Shelley and above Otis Williams. Only one person mentioned Joe Molina, and that was Victoria Adams, and that was after her ascend from the 4th floor and being directed back to the T.S.B.D. by a police man.
At the same time not one witness standing on those steps during the shooting says who that Caucasian male actually is. That is troubling no?
And why should they, in those days anyone of non Caucasian build in Tx. was expected to shut up and not volunteer information (Carl Jones, Roy Lewis and Joe Molina).
The women? Same!
Frazier? He was 19 and got the scare of his life by being shoved a statement, for being a co-conspirator, in front of him to sign by ‘old reliable’ Will Fritz.
Lovelady? Got bailed out by Ochus Campbell (the vice-president of the T.S.B.D.) for a weapons charge he was going to be re-arrested for.
Shelley? Oswald’s foreman, why should he side with a commie sympathiser? A cop killer to boot. No thank you……
Plus why should they state were Oswald was at that time, they barely knew him and he was dead by the time quite a few of the T.S.B.D. workerswere interviewed, and who would want the weight of local and national law enforcement agencies on their back for a dead commie sympathiser who had also killed a cop!!!
3/ This person could be from a number of businesses in the vicinity, a passerby, a tourist, any number of people besides Lee Harvey Oswald.
This is about the biggest mistake Savastano can make, not only by disregarding this person as anyone but Oswald and also avoiding using his common sense, but also for the fact that it is no stranger either as was documented in March of 1964, as per CE 1381. If you want evidence Carmine, the stranger scenario is killed off with that document.
4/ While a conspiracy is eminently feasible and supported by substantial evidence, that does not justify the “Prayer Man” claim.
A very strange claim to make, especially when Savastano fails to submit such evidence himself, pot kettle…..
5/ Additional feasibly contending evidence includes the verbal statement of Lee Harvey Oswald himself.Some suggest we cannot trust any of the evidence, which is ridiculous, for how else can we prove anything? If most evidence available indicates something, it is more than likely to have occurred. Consider the amount of work and people required to suppress this idea. It would be a large undertaking of little value, since the matter still proves nothing of substance. It is not a smoking gun in my view, but smoke and mirrors.
Here Savastano makes another whopper of a faux pas. Not only does he ascribe to some of Oswald’s public statements in a video by Len Osanic, which are not timed in any way btw, but will be by me soon enough in my next paper “Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations”.
But he also produces a very incomplete body of work. What Carmine should have done for starters is introduce the statements made by Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout and Holmes and also their notes and testimony as to Oswald’s whereabouts and more importantly about he destruction of Oswald’s alibi. Something I did in my first paper “Anatomy of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter” From thereon he could have concluded that the lunch room encounter was an utter fake event and from thereon investigate where Oswald actually was during that period, of shooting J.F.K.
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A further update about the Interrogations paper.
At this point it lingers around 310 pages, and it will be presented in a new format namely that of a timeline. I have been trying to pinpoint the available evidence in a time setting which to me has been of great help seeing how and when Oswald was being railroaded. I am happy I have done this these past few months but also a bit tired with it. I have almost worked two years constantly on just Oswald’s interrogations and can not wait to move on to the T.S.B.D. paper, the 3rd of 4.
I hope to release the Interrogations paper in about 2-3 weeks, at least before the anniversary.
Aug
17
In Assignment Oswald F.B.I. agent James Hosty mentions the following about an early morning meeting on the 22nd held by Gordon Shanklin (S.A.I.C.).
“At any rate, I called this meeting to remind you all of a few things. As you probably know, the Secret Service wants no help from the FBI in protecting the president or his party. Vince Drain here” — Shanklin nodded toward Drain, who was sitting across from me at another desk — “has already made contact with the Dallas Secret Service office, but was politely rebuffed. He was told in so many words they needed no help from us.”
A memo from Vincent Drain seems to concur with the above mentioned.
F.B.I. memo Vincent Drain Nov 25 1963. Click doc to enlarge.
So that is Shanklin, Drain and Hosty all mentioning one way or another that help from the F.B.I. in regards The President’s visit is not needed.
Hmmmmmm. Anyone else?
Of course :)
Enter Stephan Weiss of the 112th military intelligence group who was ordered by Colonel Robert E Jones to offer full cooperation with the Secret Service for J.F.K.’s visit in Dallas. And was told (Sorrels is not named as such) during a meeting they were not needed. Read the documents below, there are a few more nuggets in there you should read.
Special thanks to Malcolm Blunt for the documentation.
Jul
24
About 6 weeks ago I was approached by S.T. Patrick of Midnight Writer News to do an interview for his show after a few weeks we finally managed to do this. Listening back to it one month after I did it I have to say I did not do too bad. I am very critical of myself when I do these things, and the good thing is that after listening to 50 mins of it I haven’t turned it off yet!
I am talking about the research done and of course, the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, T.S.B.D., Dallas P.D. and Prayer Man all pass the avenue during this interview.
A thoroughly enjoyable experience.
Thank you S.T. Patrick.
Go HERE to hear the interview and read up about it on the Midnight Writer News Website.
During the interview I mistakenly refer to me as having received the JFK Lancer Pioneer Award, which is wrong it was the New Frontier Award actually. Apologies for the mix-up.
