Business as usual or meet the lone gunman(UA-66627984-1)

Prayer Man

Carmine Savastano on Prayer Man

Almost 4 years ago, March 2015 to be precise, Carmine Savastano had a go at trying to bring Prayer Man down on his blog named after his book Two Princes and a King. Neither me or any other ROKCer was aware of this post. The article was updated last in Dec 2017.

Carmine departed from ROKC shortly before he wrote this, or was kicked off the forum, whoever you wish to believe. The core members had enough of his constant arguing about evidence. I was not really there when all this happened, I did not seriously partake until Jan. 2015 myself.

Now having read Savastano’s blog post  just now I can honestly say that his work or better yet his understanding of Prayer Man is not very good, as a matter of fact I rate it as high as Doyle’s comprehension of the case. The difference is that whenever Doyle is in a tight spot he uses Harvey and Lee to get himself out of it. How convenient it is to use Oswald’s ‘double’ when it becomes impossible to clear yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself. But that is a different story. Let’s stick with the subject matter which is this blog post by him.

I will quote some from the article written by Carmine Savastano and write my comments down below in bold. Just wish to add that this is by no means a personal attack, it is a rebuttal to some of the arguments that are not only used by him, but by others as well who seem to lack to see the big picture and only use some of the evidence that is around.

1/The “Prayer Man” is similar to many other supposed “breakthroughs” coined by various people in the time since President Kennedy’s death. These include the Doorway Man, the Badge Man, the Black Dog Man, the Red Bandana Man, and the Black Hole Man, among many others.

I do not even know of the last two individuals, but to compare Prayer Man with Badge Man and Doorway Man is already a huge mistake.

Doorway Man was already cleared up the same evening, as the F.B.I. went to Billy Lovelady and he picked himself out from the table sized enlargement of the Altgens 6 Photograph. And Badge Man is not supported by anything but a colouring in, you could colour in a a pink elephant and try and make people believe that this is what is standing behind the picket fence. Looking at a very large b&w scan of the Moorman Polaroid does not show anything of a human outline at all. 

Prayer Man is supported by evidence, be it circumstantial, but it is not something that should be disregarded. All this can be found in the interrogations reports and testimonies from Will Fritz, Jim Hosty and Harry Dean Holmes. Something Savastano doesn’t even touch nor makes mention of. 

2/No witness testimony in the immediate area supports Oswald’s presence and not a single witness identifies him in the area during the shots.

Almost correct (Carolyn Arnold’s statement), but what Savastano omits from his writings is:

The primary statements by Shelley and Lovelady i/e do not contain a word about Oswald at all, as they were taken before Oswald was taken in. Once they witnessed Oswald’s arrival at City Hall, he was brought in as a cop killer, not as the shooter of J.F.K. Now who in their right mind would associate themselves with a cop killer? 

Nor did anyone mention the negro on the bottom of the steps, Carl Edward Jones or Joe Molina who stood next to Shelley and above Otis Williams. Only one person mentioned Joe Molina, and that was Victoria Adams, and that was after her ascend from the 4th floor and being directed back to the T.S.B.D. by a police man.

At the same time not one witness standing on those steps during the shooting says who that Caucasian male actually is. That is troubling no?

And why should they, in those days anyone of non Caucasian build in Tx. was expected to shut up and not volunteer information (Carl Jones, Roy Lewis and Joe Molina).

The women? Same!

Frazier? He was 19 and got the scare of his life by being shoved a statement, for being a co-conspirator, in front of him to sign by ‘old reliable’ Will Fritz.

Lovelady? Got bailed out by Ochus Campbell (the vice-president of the T.S.B.D.) for a weapons charge he was going to be re-arrested for.

Shelley? Oswald’s foreman, why should he side with a commie sympathiser? A cop killer to boot. No thank you……

Plus why should they state were Oswald was at that time, they barely knew him and he was dead by the time quite a few of the T.S.B.D. workerswere interviewed, and who would want the weight of local and national law enforcement agencies on their back for a dead commie sympathiser who had also killed a cop!!!

3/ This person could be from a number of businesses in the vicinity, a passerby, a tourist, any number of people besides Lee Harvey Oswald.

This is about the biggest mistake Savastano can make, not only by disregarding this person as anyone but Oswald and also avoiding using his common sense, but also for the fact that it is no stranger either as was documented in March of 1964, as per CE 1381. If you want evidence Carmine, the stranger scenario is killed off with that document.

4/ While a conspiracy is eminently feasible and supported by substantial evidence, that does not justify the “Prayer Man” claim.

A very strange claim to make, especially when Savastano fails to submit such evidence himself, pot kettle…..

5/ Additional feasibly contending evidence includes the verbal statement of Lee Harvey Oswald himself.Some suggest we cannot trust any of the evidence, which is ridiculous, for how else can we prove anything? If most evidence available indicates something, it is more than likely to have occurred. Consider the amount of work and people required to suppress this idea. It would be a large undertaking of little value, since the matter still proves nothing of substance. It is not a smoking gun in my view, but smoke and mirrors.

Here Savastano makes another whopper of a faux pas. Not only does he ascribe to some of Oswald’s  public statements in a video by Len Osanic, which are not timed in any way btw, but will be by me soon enough in my next paper “Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations”.

But he also produces a very incomplete body of work. What Carmine should have done for starters is introduce the statements made by Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout and Holmes and also their notes and testimony as to Oswald’s whereabouts and more importantly about he destruction of Oswald’s alibi. Something I did in my first paper “Anatomy of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter” From thereon he could have concluded that the lunch room encounter was an utter fake event and from thereon investigate where Oswald actually was during that period, of shooting J.F.K.

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A further update about the Interrogations paper.

At this point it lingers around 310 pages, and it will be presented in a new format namely that of a timeline. I have been trying to pinpoint the available evidence in a time setting which to me has been of great help seeing how and when Oswald was being railroaded. I am happy I have done this these past few months but also a bit tired with it. I have almost worked two years constantly on just Oswald’s interrogations and can not wait to move on to the T.S.B.D. paper, the 3rd of 4.

I hope to release the Interrogations paper in about 2-3 weeks, at least before the anniversary.

 

MWN Episode 078 – Bart Kamp on Prayer Man, Oswald, & the TSBD

About 6 weeks ago I was approached by S.T. Patrick of Midnight Writer News to do an interview for his show after a few weeks we finally managed to do this. Listening back to it one month after I  did it I have to say I did not do too bad. I am very critical of myself when I do these things, and the good thing is that after listening to 50 mins of it I haven’t turned it off yet!

I am talking about the research done and of course, the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, T.S.B.D., Dallas P.D. and Prayer Man all pass the avenue during this interview.

A thoroughly enjoyable experience.

Thank you S.T. Patrick.

Go HERE to hear the interview and read up about it on the Midnight Writer News Website.

During the interview I mistakenly refer to me as having received the JFK Lancer Pioneer Award, which is wrong it was the New Frontier Award actually. Apologies for the mix-up.

Oswald in the corridor Nov 22nd after his hearing.

Oswald in the corridor Nov 22nd, after his Tippit arraignment which was at 7:10 PM.

A week ago I posted a silent version of this video , I then found this one with audio attached to it from a Canadian TV program. And since hearing the audio now, I can safely say that this is the same moment as in the video posted below this one, but all the way from the other side. Kinda cool. This is where it pays of looking and comparing at the film material of those happenings inside that corridor. There was a lot made that day and the weekend after, but so little has been released in decent quality.

This is after Oswald’s arraignment inside Fritz’s office for the Tippit murder.

 

This door leads to the jail elevator.

Third floor plan Dallas City Hall. Click pic. to enlarge.

And then from that very same door Oswald emerges at about 19:50 hrs, the Patsy sequence. Again requesting legal representation and exclaiming his innocence of shooting The President.

 

Think about it in a time frame of roughly 40 minutes Lee Oswald, twice mentioned the hearing without legal representation. Not allowing him to have any, and steadfastly denying he shot anyone.

The sun plane

The last week there has been some debate about an old myth: The Sun Plane in the Prayer Man images.

Originally brought up by Brian Doyle in his many word salad postings a couple of years ago, and in that whole period Doyle has never brought forward how it is supposed to look or give a rough estimation of it. So like a flat earther he ended up posting “his findings” on the net and everybody else would have to believe his “research” on his say so.

This tactic doesn’t work very well for Doyle, people are smarter than that. And yes Doyle = Cinque, there is no doubt about that.

Then there was Barry Pollard who posted  an image of Billy Lovelady going down the steps in the Wiegman film and claimed that Lovelady wore a black jacket as he could not explain the shadow on the left half on Lovelady’s (2) torso.

Yet with Bill Shelley (3) in the background it could be that Lovelady walks exactly halfway in the shadow and the sun. Be aware that this is an enlargement of a small detail of a 16 mm film shot with a wide angle lens. The steps occupants look much closer together due to these factors.

Prayer Man = 1, Billy Lovelady = 2 and Bill Shelley = 3. Click pic to enlarge.

Click to enlarge.

Take a look at the shadow of the people at the front and the sharp angle it is coming at, granted they may not stand exactly parallel to the people on the steps, but for a rough indication this ought to show that the shadow is much longer than originally discussed.

I can pinpoint it even more precise.

Take a look at Buell Wesley Frazier in the Darnell film. And you will see the shadow of the top left corner of the wall (just underneath the TSBD sign) creates a shadow of a 90 degree-ish angle on him, his head is in the shade no less. Above Frazier and JoeMolina is a glass pane and that is partially illuminated and so is the glass on the far eastern side. This illumination is from a reflection of the eastern wall.

Click pic. to enlarge.

Look at Maddie Reese in both images, in Wiegman standing southwesterly below Lovelady in Wiegman and Frazier in Darnell.

Click to enlarge.

So now anyone drawing the TSBD steps in 3D is able to pinpoint how the sun plane is actually going correctly as so far no one has done this as it ought to be. The shadow ends up way more Eastwards than has been shown so far. And honestly I trust the photos more. Furthermore the three people that have started to make 3d drawings of the steps of the T.S.B.D. put the shadowline in as a 2d object, whereas the shadow would resemble some sort of half a sphere instead.

Thanks to Brian Kelshaw.

Thanks to Brian Kelshaw.

You are welcome Brian Doyle!

Baker ID in Oswald corridor footage

Greg Parker posted this on FB recently, he pretty much IDed Baker in footage from the evening of the 23rd (about 30 hours after the assassination) of Baker seeing Oswald while he is about to be escorted through the hall and ducks away.

Now let me be very cynical for a change, but if I didn’t know any better then Baker looks at the guy who is being railroaded for the murder of The President, and after what has been going on about the second floor lunch room encounter that had only been public knowledge earlier that day and he cannot bear to look at him any longer after clocking him. That’s what the cynic inside tells me after looking at the man’s body language. I look too much at this stuff, but it’s one of those tells. Like Oswald’s face when he hears “You have been charged for murdering The President”. One of those moments were a picture starts to speak a thousand words.

There has to be more footage of this, as I have never seen this transfer of Oswald on the eve of Nov. 23rd before. It was from a documentary that I only had in a low resolution so never bothered to properly check it myself. Thanks to Greg Parker we all can see Baker on the 23rd no less. Closer inspection also reveals that this encounter is coincidental as Baker just tries to make his way past when the door has just opened with Oswald coming out.

I shall post some screen shots of this footage Greg pointed at. A very short snippet of The Lost JFK Tapes docu.

The video below will play the clip once in real time, and once in a crude slow motion.

Go to the Marrion Baker page to see more pictures.

Before people will bring J.W. Courson into the picture. Well his face shows something of a likeness, but it is not him..

Marrion Lewis Baker, click pic. to enlarge.

 

Living History with Karen Westbrook Scranton

Updated March 25th 2018.

Recently the 6th Floor Museum uploaded a video of Stephen Fagin’s interview with Karen Westbrook Scranton. She worked for a small publisher Southwestern Company alongside with Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Ann Reed and Carol Hughes on the second floor office of the T.S.B.D. after she graduated from high school.

At about 07:15 it is shown that her desk inside the second floor office is in the southeast corner, meaning in the far right corner in the picture below.

Karen Westbrook’s desk was in the far right upper corner of this pic. Click to enlarge.

At 11:10 it starts to go wrong. She states that after seeing the photograph of the fake vestibule that that door was always open. The door in question was part of a unit built to keep the noise out and had a door closing attachment fixed at the top of the door, which you can see below in a picture at the top left of the door on the inside. What she refers to as the door of the lunch room is the door after that, which I am showing next in the gallery below. Plus a close-up showing that that lunch room door is open. Imagine that outer door being open all that time then Baker’s and Truly’s remarks with the door being closed and that Baker caught a glimpse through the glass of the door can be completely discounted then. Some nerdy shizzle going on here folks….. But I do not find this suspicious merely human error and it being a long time ago.

At 12:10 Stephen Fagin makes the mistake of referring to the 2nd floor lunch room as to the Domino room, the Domino room was downstairs on the first floor and not the second. It was called that way as they tended to play a lot of domino games in there. It was the labourers’ lunch room.

Then shortly after that she drops a massive bomb shell, and states that Oswald had his lunch in there in the corner by himself. So that would be the first table coming in on the right on the photo below.

Click on pic to enlarge.

That is quite a thing to say as many others said that Oswald always had his lunch in the Domino Room which was on 1st. Then also if Oswald was in the lunch room at 12:15 as stated by Carolyn Arnold in the 70’s then others could have easily confirmed that. Reid especially as she left later. Molina had lunch and could have seen him there, but he made no mention of it, nor did anyone else. It is quite possible it is true that she must have seen him on the odd occasion.

At 13:00 she mentions that Lee was always reading strange looking material. Pamphlet style material.

After that she tells about Altgens6, and confirms that it was Billy Lovelady, and that the guy was looking a bit like Lee, but it wasn’t him. “It became a terrible joke in the office.”

At 18:10 Karen Westbrook Scranton IDs herself in the Zapruder film. And also pointed out that redheaded Gloria Calvery was standing right beside her. There was no doubt in her mind. Finally an ID of Gloria Calvery! She then says that she believes the person next to Gloria Calvery is Carol Ann Reed and that is wrong. It is Stella Mae Jacob, who was a (Native) Indian.

Click to enlarge.

With this ID, it can be said that running woman in Couch and Darnell is not Gloria Calvery. Furthermore she cannot be compared with any of the women going up on the west side of the stairs in Darnell either. Gloria Calvery’s son seems to dispute that the woman with the red hair is his mum. Stephen Fegin relays this, but does not elaborate any further, nor does anyone else

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Add on March 25th.

In this film snippet, thanks to Dennis Morissette for pointing me to it, it looks like the three women in the Z film are shown crying. Todd Vaughn attributes it to Jimmy Darnell, but I have seen no evidence for this. If he did, then this kills off the notion that they went back to the T.S.B.D. rather quickly (no running woman and no woman on the steps either as claimed by others). Darnell went up the steps and filmed Roger Craig and other happenings behind the picket fence in the rail road yard first! Then he took footage, while Marilyn Siltzman was interviewed and then making his way back towards the depository. In the background you can see several people looking into the railroad yards while standing inside the pergola indicating quite some time has passed. I have no info that Darnell went back to this area specifically after the rail road yard footage. But for the benefit of the doubt let’s assume he did shoot this.

The colouring is dead wrong in comparison with the Z still btw.

If these three women are the same then Westbrook was wrong about the ID of the person standing next to Gloria Calvery. The darker skinned person is possibly Stella Mae Jacob, who describes herself as of Indian descent (in this context that means Native American). If this is true, then there is an even bigger problem with regards the timing of  their return, according to Jacob’s statement in CE1381 she did not even make it back inside the T.S.B.D. and left for home instead! That by itself is interesting with regards to the so called missing persons and the roll call by Roy Truly. There were lots of people missing, LOTS!

Back to Westbrook’s words regarding IDing the people next to her. I don’t think she misidentified Calvery as she was a/ standing next to her and b/she stated she had red hair. And if this is not Calvery but Gloria Jean Holt then she better have red hair! At this stage I have not seen any pictures of her, so it is Calvery until proven otherwise. Gloria Calvery’s son disputes the ID of Calvery by Westbrook, but Stephen Fagin does not elaborate on this any further.

 

From the women that are in that group according to their statements in CE1381 I can relay.

Gloria Little/Calvery stated she was with: Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook and Karan Hicks. After getting back in the office she made her way back down near the front entrance, but was told she could not leave.

Karan Hicks stated she was with: Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook and Carol Reed. After making her way back in the office, like Calvery, she made her way back down near the front entrance, but was told she could not leave.

Gloria Jean Holt was with Stella Mae Jacob and Sharron Simmons. She did not manage to get back inside the T.S.B.D. and subsequently went home.

Stella Mae Jacob was accompanied by Sharron Nelson/Simmons and Gloria Jean Holt. She also did not manage to get back inside the T.S.B.D. and subsequently went home as well.

Sharron Nelson/Simmons was with Gloria Jean Holt and Stella Mae Jacob.  She did not return to the T.S.B.D. either.

Carol Reed stated she was with Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery.

This then translates into the following graphic.

 

Click to enlarge.

 

We can see Stella Mae Jacob and Gloria Calvery embracing each other in the Harry Cabluck pic from the Dallas Times Herald below. You can also notice the two ladies on the right are lady 4 and 5 to the left of the Stemmons freeway sign in the Z film still.

Stella Mae Jacob and either Gloria Calvery or Gloria Jean Holt embracing in a Harry Cabluck/D.T.H. pic. From Robin Unger’s jfkassassinationgallery.com. Click to enlarge.

 

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Then at 29:17 she starts to relay the conversation she apparently had with Mrs. Robert Reid, the clerical supervisor. The most astonishing bit is she had that convo after the assassination, on the very same day, while people were locked-in the office by the police and they were milling around inside it.  Mrs Reid said Lee came in with a coke in his hand and asked “what’s all that excitement all about.”  And she answered “OMG someone shot the President.” And Karen Westbrook Scranton then says “Whether that’s true and fits in with the timeline of the story. that was Mrs Reid’s story, seeing Lee after the assassination.”   Think about it, Lee asked what the commotion was about? Mrs Reid described Lee’s manner as almost non-responsive, he had said something that she could not understand. And she said all this to everyone inside the office within an hour after the assassination? Molina could have confirmed that, but he did not, nor did anyone else. Especially Geneva Hine would not relay that, since she was alone in the office between 12:25-12:35! And she saw Reid, Stanton, Reed, Molina and others come in about 25 mins after.

At 33:40 she tells the story of Marguerite Oswald coming in and causing a scene and being removed from the building. A situation that was described by Roy Truly as well. He even said that she showed Altgens6 and claimed that it was Lee on the front page picture.

She is convinced Lee did it, and has of course taken in certain pro-Warren Commission scenarios to support that opinion. What she says is informative, but there are some mistakes and also some statements that are hard to believe.

 

Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter Update V4

Since August 2017 I came across a few more items so I decided to include these and release this new update. I am honestly not sure whether there is much left to include in this paper. I reckon time will tell. Since getting awarded by Lancer and Dealey Plaza UK this paper has doubled in size. More to read no doubt and more to bitch about by Richard Gilbride and Brian Doyle. Snooch to da mooch darlings ;)

The following has been added:

  • More info and a link to Roy Truly’s ‘deleted’ testimony video. Page 4.
  • Video link and transcript of an interview with Sylvia Meagher in which she discusses the 2nd floor lunch room encounter in depth. Added on pages 9-11.
  • Malcolm Couch still added showing Baker’s bike parked on Elm St. Page 20.
  • Detailed drawings of the TSBD front entrance. These were made by the FBI in early Dec. 1963. Pages 30 & 31. Thanks to Gary Murr.
  • More testimony and a line of text of Joe Molina added to “Who saw Baker going up the stairs” chapter, page 38.
  • Detailed drawings from the FBI on the 2nd floor of the TSBD, pages 63-64. Thanks to Gary Murr.
  • Press and Sun-Bulletin Binghamton, New York · Sun, Dec 8, 1963 article added, page 73.
  • Added Martha Reed’s affidavit in the chapter Oswald’s location during the so called 2nd floor encounter and just after, page 82.
  • Added two documents from Arch Kimbraugh’s collection with statements made by Roy Truly on the day he left for his W.C. testimony. Pages 102 and 103. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.
  • Report by Charles Batchelor in the Where did Baker and Truly go after the Encounter chapter. Pages 107-109.
  • Jack Revill’s list of all persons’ details taken upon leaving the T.S.B.D. Pages 111 and 112.
  • The Carolyn Arnold sub-chapter has been re-written in part and has a few more photos/graphics/statements/book excerpts added. Pages 124-139.
  • FBI report with the timings of the re-enactment. Pages 159-161. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

 

The paper can be viewed HERE.

Dealey Plaza UK Canterbury Seminar 2018

April 28-29 at Christchurch Uni in Canterbury DPUK will hold its annual seminar.

Preliminary program (STC)

Saturday 28th April

09.40m – 09.50am Introduction to the Seminar by Stuart Galloway

09.50am – 10.50am Harold “Skip” Rydberg by Barry Keane

10.50am – 11.10am Break: Coffee/Tea

11.10am – 12.10pm Interrogations of LHO-1 by Bart Kamp

12.10pm – 1.40pm LUNCH That means of to the pub 

1.40pm – 2.40pm Interrogations of LHO-2 by Bart Kamp

2.40pm – 3.50pm ZR/RIFLE, William Harvey, & QJ WIN by Larry Hancock

3.50pm – 4.10pm Break: Tea/Coffee

4.10pm – 5.10pm Q & A with Malcolm Blunt with B Kamp

5.10pm – 6.00pm Possible Film or extend Larry’s talk from

Dinner at the Abbotts Barton Hotel – 7.30pm for 8.00pm

Sunday 29th April

09.30am – 10.30am The DPUK Auction with Mike Dworetsky

10.30am – 12.00pm Evidence of Gunmen in DP.by David Percox

12.00pm – 12.30pm The Dallas Police by Ian Griggs

12.30pm – 1.40pm LUNCH ( Buffet in the Lecture Theatre)

1.40pm – 2.40 pm Q & A with John Newman and B.Kamp

2.40pm – 3.40pm Jim Di Eugenio JFK’s foreign policy and also the recent released files. The impact of Donald Trump and how they were ignored by the media.

3:40pm – 3.50pm Closure of the Seminar by Stuart Galloway.

More info on attendance and pricing at DPUK FB Event page.

Costs for members.

Two day seminar including tea and coffee on Saturday – £35

Dinner at Best Western (Abbots Barton)   – £37 (we have our own room)

Buffet lunch in The Old Sessions House on Sunday – £7

Total = £79  (£42 without Dinner)

Attendance Saturday only – £20

Attendance Sunday only  – £24 (includes Buffet).

 

Some of the talks will be videod and shown on YouTube/Vimeo.