Sep
03
The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.
Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
- Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
- Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly in different locations. Pages 24-25.
- Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
- In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
- Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
- Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
- Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
- In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states “they saw no one there” Page 46.
- Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
- Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up as is stated. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
- Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
- Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
- Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
- Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
- Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
- Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
- Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
- While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
- Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
- Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
- The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
- The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
- During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
- The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
- Mrs Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
- Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
- Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
- Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
- The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B.D. much later. Pages 112-113.
- Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
- Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
- The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press on Nov 23rd is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
- Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
- Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. In a new found document, a draft document by James Hosty, states that Oswald had a coke for his lunch and then went outside the watch the P. parade. Pages 136-146.
- The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening outside and inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
Aug
31
Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations in a Nutshell.
Featured in National Review magazine. Scan from NARA.
Click HERE (32.9MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be viewed here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- Oswald is arrested inside the Texas Theatre and according to Sergeant Gerald Hill Oswald demands a lawyer and complains about police brutality (page 22).
- Frank Underwood is inside the same elevator Oswald is going up to the third floor with. Oswald tells him he did not kill anybody (page 23).
- Gerald Hill who is being interviewed twice shortly after Oswald’s arrest and drop off on the third floor states Oswald’s name in both instances. There is no mention of the Hidell name (page 24).
- Before Oswald is talked to by Rose and Stovall he is frisked by Charles Truman Walker, who was present during his arrest at the Texas Theatre and is part of the group of policemen dropping Oswald off on the third floor of City Hall. He does not find anything in his pockets (page 25). Yet before Oswald’s first line-up with Helen Markham detectives Sims and Boyd find 5 bullets and a bus ticket in his pockets almost 2.5 hours later (page 83).
- Kent Biffle destroys the roll call(s) scenario from Roy Truly from a timing perspective (pages 29-30).
- While Oswald is being talked to by detectives Gus Rose and Richard Stovall it emerges that both detectives contradict themselves during their Warren Commission testimony when it comes to whether Oswald used the Hidell or Oswald name by way of identification (pages 27-28).
- In the past few decades detective Jim Leavelle has positioned himself as the person who interrogated Oswald before Captain Will Fritz did, whereas the statements by him during his Warren Commission testimony and his own written statement contradict this (pages 30-34).
- Detective Joe Cody inserts himself as well as the person who talked to L.H.O. before Will Fritz interrogated him. This is only backed up by him and no documentation (pages 34-36).
- T.L. Baker confirms it was Rose and Stovall who had a chat with Oswald before he was interrogated by Will Fritz (page 37).
- Before Will Fritz returns to City Hall from the T.S.B.D. he makes a detour via Sheriff Bill Decker’s office. Nothing is known about what was discussed between the two (page 38).
- Will Fritz did not audio record the interviews and could have borrowed equipment to do so, nor used a stenographer, during the first interrogation James Hosty is the only person who took notes. Fritz’s handwritten notes are not contemporary.
- During Will Fritz’s first interrogation, according to his handwritten notes, Oswald clearly stated where he was at the time of the shooting. “Out with Bill Shelley, in front.” (page 40). A handwritten document by F.B.I. agent James Hosty states “Then went outside to watch P. Parade” (page 54).
- This very same document by Hosty states that Oswald got his coke for his lunch. And this is repeated in the typed up joint Hosty-Bookhout report (page 65).
- B.I. agent James Bookhout changes this narrative in his solo report from Nov. 24th to an encounter inside the second floor lunch room (page 66).
- After Oswald’s first interrogation with Will Fritz, he is being questioned by Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service. Oswald thinks he is a lawyer and once known to him that he is S.S. he wonders whether Sorrels is supposed to get him an attorney (page 69).
- There are plenty of indicators that the line-ups were not as impartial as they should have been (pages 84-85).
- The first line-up with Helen Markham is nothing short of a drama as she needs to be sedated beforehand (page 93).
- Helen Markham during her W.C. testimony denied no less than six times recognising Lee Oswald as Tippit’s killer (pages 86-88).
- Marrion Baker overhears Oswald shouting ‘I want a lawyer’ during the second interrogation (page 95)
- Roger Craig sees and reports that Oswald left around 12:42 from the T.S.B.D. running down the hill in front of the T.S.B.D. and confronts him later on in the office of Will Fritz (pages 96 – 106).
- During the second line-up Cecil McWatters has difficulty picking Lee Oswald out as the man who was on his bus (page 104).
- Sam Guinyard and Ted Callaway who work not far away from the location where Tippit was shot, contradict each other during their W.C. testimonies (pages 109-112).
- Ted Callaway also mentions a second person involved in the shooting, and according to Domingo Benavides he asked him what happened and which direction the killer had gone.
- Galloway’s and Guinyard’s statements are taken before the line-up. The two men’s handwritten statements are taken and the No. 2 ID is added on the typed statement after (page 108).
- The biggest absentee from this group of men is Domingo Benavides, he was closest to the Tippit killing and must have been able to identify Tippit’s killer. The D.P.D. does not get a statement from him nor is he asked to identify the killer during the line-up(s) and he only appears in front of the W.C. in March 1964 (page 113).
- At about 19:10 hrs Oswald is arraigned for the murder of officer Tippit by Justice of the Peace David Johnston. There are several detectives present, plus Captain Fritz and Chief of Police Jesse Curry. Their remembrance as to what exactly happened is hazy to say the least (pages 114-116).
- Shortly after the arraignment Oswald is being filmed complaining of not having legal representation present during this hearing and again denies having shot anyone (page 117).
- Oswald’s second line-up for the Davis sisters has the Dallas Police put two blonds in the lineup along with Oswald and Ables (page 118-121).
- After the line-up Oswald appears in the corridor again and asks for legal representation, and also mentions that he did not shoot anyone and that people keep asking him that. At the end of that very short walk back into Fritz’s office he exclaims to be a patsy (pages 122-123).
- Shortly after Henry Wade arrives at City Hall and is surprised to see Jim Allen inside Will Fritz’s Robbery & Homicide office. Allen is a former assistant D.A. and at that time a private citizen yet is a close friend of Fritz (pages 123-124).
- Buell Frazier is brought in the evening and interrogated. There is a report by Frazier that Will Fritz brought in a statement for him to sign that made him an accomplice to Oswald’s killing of J.F.K. to which Frazier refused to go along with. Fritz raised his hand following that, after which Frazier promised him a hell of a fight. Later on that evening Frazier is subjected to a polygraph test, the results of this test have diappeared (pages 126-128).
- In the evening Oswald has his fingerprints and palmprints taken, but the Dallas police also takes paraffin tests of his hands and his right cheek to determine whether he fired a weapon. E. ‘Pete’ Barnes had not applied this test to a suspect’s face ever before. Nor would it not have made one iota of difference in determining whether Oswald had fired a rifle that day and the tests itself can be questioned for the fact that Oswald’s finger prints were taken before the paraffin tests (pages 129-137).
- Assistant D.A. Bill Alexander, along with Jim Allen, wants to charge Oswald with J.F.K.’s murder as part of an international communist conspiracy. Higher ups make him retract this (pages 138-143).
- Howard Brennan appears at City Hall to view a line-up and fails to I.D. Oswald as the sixth floor shooter (pages 144-152).
- B.I. agent Manning Clemments interrogates Oswald on his physical description and background information (pages 153-158).
- Detective John Adamcik (who speaks a little Russian) interrogates Oswald before Oswald makes his appearance at the press conference (pages 159-160).
- Greg Olds and a few of his A.C.L.U. colleagues arrive at City Hall late in the evening to ascertain whether Oswald is having any legal representation, they are given the run around by some of Fritz’s people (pages 162-169).
- In the very early morning of Nov. 23rd Oswald stands in front of the press exclaiming having no idea what the whole situation is about and asks a few times for legal representation in the very short time he is actually allowed to talk (pages 174-179).
- After the press conference Oswald is taken to jail and Henry Wade talks to the press. During this Wade makes mention of a fictitious cab driver by the name Daryl Click. More importantly Wade has to admit that while the papers have been signed to accuse Oswald of killing J.F.K. at least an hour before Oswald is yet to find out. There are strong indicators this was never done (pages 181-183 and 186-223).
- Oswald has finger prints and his mug shot taken after the press conference, he also has to hand over his shirt which is taken in by the F.B.I. and flown to Washington shortly after (pages 184-185).
- Besides Oswald’s bus ride a cab ride is inserted in Fritz’s interrogation notes from the first interrogation on the 23rd, but also the Domino Room situation with junior and one other Negro gets a mention. Fritz barely investigates this, as this would provide Oswald an alibi for the time period after 12:00 whereas J. E. Hoover wants a follow up handled promptly (pages 204-207).
- James Bookhout’s, Thomas Kelley’s reports and Fritz’s notes make a first mention of John Abt during the Saturday morning interrogation (pages 206, 210 and 213).
- During this very same interrogation the Hidell name pops up for the first time according to the reports by Fritz, Kelley and Bookhout and the W.C. Commission testimony of Forest Sorrels (pages 208, 210, 213, 215 and 217).
- Inspector Thomas J Kelley of the Secret Service writes in his report of that interrogation that he asked him ‘if he viewed the parade and he said he had not’ this cannot be corroborated by Fritz’s or Bookhout’s notes at all (pages 209-214).
- Joe Molina, of the accounting department of the T.S.B.D., arrives at the D.P.D. after a visit by some heavy weights in the middle of night who searched through his house for a few hours and come up with nothing of significance. He is being kept at the D.P.D. for roughly 7 hours and loses his job about one month later as Chief Curry names him to the press as a subversive person (pages 218-223).
- Harold McDervid, a Chicago lawyer, has offered council to Oswald via telegram after trying via the phone before. His messages are filed away never to reach Oswald (pages 224-225).
- Marina and Marguerite Oswald get to see Lee for about half an hour.
- Oswald is interrogated again for a brief period mainly to ascertain where his belongings are and what his place(s) of residence are (page 226).
- Oswald could not call anyone until Nov 23rd at 13:40 almost 24 hours after his arrest. This is his first attempt at calling John Abt (page 229).
- Oswald’s line-up in front of William Whaley and William Scoggins. This time he is accompanied by three fellow prisoners, of which one is of Mexican heritage. During the transfer to the line-up Oswald is heard bitterly complaining about the difference in appearance by just wearing a t-shirt to anyone who can hear it (231-233).
- William Whaley identifies the wrong man (No. 2) as the killer of Tippit. Oswald was No. 3, and Whaley needed to correct himself during his W.C. testimony. Whaley also admitted signing a statement before he was taken to the line-up and again had to correct himself. Nor did he read the statement before signing it. Whaley’s W.C. testimony with regards to what Oswald was wearing is enough to disqualify him as a reliable witness. (pages 233-242).
- William Scoggins had seen a picture of Oswald in the paper on the morning of the 23r and he described the assailant going west before the murder, this would exclude Oswald being the killer as Helen Markham said the assailant was travelling east (pages 242-246).
- Robert Oswald gets to visit his brother Lee for about ten minutes after a four hour wait, during the conversation they have Lee tells his brother to not form any opinion on the so- called evidence (pages 248-253).
- Lee Oswald makes another call, one of which to Ruth Pain who is anything but helpful. Nobody knows at that time where his wife, Marina, is (pages 254-260).
- Louis Nichols visits Oswald in jail to enquire about whether Oswald has legal representation (pages 261-265).
- Oswald can be heard during a transfer towards Fritz’s office demanding hygienic rights (page 266).
- During the interrogation following the transfer the back yard photos are introduced to Oswald. He denies it is him in the photographs (pages 267-271).
- After this interrogation Oswald is led down the corridor again and is captured saying he “emphatically denies these charges” (page 271).
- Shortly after that Will Fritz appears in front of the reporters and declares Oswald being the killer of The President without going into evidence (pages 272-273).
- In the evening of Nov. 23rd when Oswald comes out of the jail elevator room Marrion Baker happens to stand very near the entrance. Upon spotting Oswald he ducks away (page 273).
- After returning to his cell Oswald makes another phone call which happens to last 30 minutes (page 276).
- An alleged Raleigh call to/from Oswald to John Hurt never happened (pages 277-279).
- On Sunday morning Oswald is interrogated one last time. Postal Inspector Harry Dean Holmes is a new addition to the group of people interrogating him, his report and W.C. testimony of that particular interrogation nullifies the second floor lunch room encounter (pages 281-302).
- Following this interrogation Oswald is transferred and subsequently shot and killed by Jack Ruby (pages 303-307).
- After Oswald’s killing a piece of paper with phone numbers is found on him. One of these numbers has not been in use since 1956 (page 309).
- By having a close look at Fritz’s report after time stamping the daily reports and statements it has become abundantly clear that Will Fritz twisted things round, not in favour of Oswald’s innocence of shooting Tippit and J.F.K., but to ascertain his guilt (pages 310-324).
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
May
05
Today I came across an article that I had read about when I read “Into The Nightmare” by Joe McBride. The article in question is called: The other Witnesses by George and Patricia Nash for the The New Leader in 1964 (pages 105 – 109). This article largely looks into the Tippit murder and points out other witnesses which were never properly interviewed nor brought forward. In this article at the end the second floor lunch room encounter is brought up as well and more importantly that Bill Shelley told them that Truly and Baker entered the T.S.B.D. five or six minutes after the shooting. This of course destroys the W.C. timings once again, which were set at 75-90 seconds and of course Oswald’ departure in 3 minutes after the deed.
I’d love to see George and Patricia Nash’s archives.
Mar
27
Oswald’s Shirt
I expect t
I expect this article will be amended in the near future. Since I have a paper coming out soon I needed a referral article to start off with.
Oswald’s shirt at the 6th Floor Museum. Click to enlarge. Screen grab B.K.
Lee Oswald would wear a shirt on his way to and from the Texas School Book Depository and be working in his T-shirt inside the building. He was captured inside the Texas Theater wearing a brownish shirt and after the scuffle inside, his arrest and ride to City Hall he can be seen with this shirt hanging of one shoulder entering City Hall’s third floor.
In this post we will have a look at that brown shirt he wore on the 22nd. The shirt he allegedly changed into after a bus & cab ride to his rooming house after having ‘escaped’ from the T.S.B.D.
Oswald is seen wearing this shirt for the whole duration of the 22nd. Only just after the midnight press conference is he asked to hand it over. F.B.I. Special Agent Vince Drain eventually takes possession and flies with it and the rest of the evidence overnight to Washington for the F.B.I. to analyse it.
Lee Oswald was allowed to wear his own clothes for the day. Whereas Jack Ruby was put in a white uniform quite quickly after murdering Oswald.
Vincent Drain’s trip from Dallas to Washington with the assassination evidence. Click to enlarge.
Several people, who had seen or interacted with Oswald at various times that day were asked whether they recognised this shirt as the garment Oswald was wearing on the 22nd. And by going through the statements of them we get the following:
Oswald’s shirt. Click to enlarge.
Here are their statements just regarding that particular shirt.
Oswald’s shirt. CE 150. Click to enlarge.
From that whole group of statements is one important person missing, and that is Marrion Lewis Baker, who allegedly encountered Oswald in the second floor lunch room, which we know is complete and utter rubbish. Let’s study his W.C. testimony.
Mr. BELIN – Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER – At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
Mr. BELIN – Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came.I wouldn’t be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Mr. BELIN – What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER – I couldn’t say whether that was–it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn’t say it was that or not.
Mr. DULLES – Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn’t quite hear.
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN – Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER – Well, it would be similar in color to it–I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn’t really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn’t pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. BELIN – Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN – Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER – He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN – Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER – I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little coloured jacket, that is all I can say.
Baker’s testimony is very telling and one can only draw the conclusion that he did not see him at the T.S.B.D. why wouldn’t any copper not know what a possible suspect wore after an encounter as such. This is basic stuff for any law enforcement officer to notice and memorise.
Captain Will Fritz made mention of two changes of Oswald’s ‘escape’. The first one was the inclusion of a cab ride as he left the bus prematurely, which he did in his interrogation notes from the Nov. 23rd morning session, and the second one as described, in the document of Dec. 4th below, that Oswald not just changed his shirt, but all his clothing. Which he did not, he did not change his T-shirt! Which is a strange thing, change your shirt but not the T-shirt after having worked in it that morning.
Will Fritz FBI Report by Vincent Drain. Click to enlarge.
Lee Oswald’s bus and cab ride can be doubted for several reasons. Ed Ledoux initiated a great thread about this at Reopen Kennedy Case Forums . I added various pieces of evidence to this thread and it is more than likely that this escape from the T.S.B.D. did not happen at all.
Roger Craig noticed someone looking like Oswald coming down the hill in front of the T.S.B.D. and getting into a Nash Rambler at about 12:42. Craig ID-ed Oswald as the man inside Fritz’s office later that afternoon. All this was reported in the Dallas Times Herald on the morning of the 23rd.
The bus ticket was only found on Oswald when he was frisked again just before his first line-up. Why would Oswald take this transfer with him while going into the Texas Theatre? Bus driver McWaters, co-passenger Julia Bledsoe and cab driver William Whaley can be doubted to a high degree speaking the truth.
Oswald’s shirt is photographed in great detail for the Shaneyfelt exhibition. Named after Lynda L. Shaneyfelt who is a special agent for the FBI in the laboratory. I am showing two of the photographs that are cropped on to the shirt. Compare the pix and see that this is not Lee Oswald. These and the others can be seen at the Mary Ferrell website (pgs 467-470).
Oswald’s shirt for the Shaneyfelt exhibition. Source: Mary Ferrell. Click pic to enlarge.
Feb
17
Marina Oswald: “It’s Lee”
By Ed Ledoux and Bart Kamp.
Some photos and text has been added and amended. Feb. 22nd 2019.
In June and July of 2018 the core ROKC members were discussing amongst themselves whether to get in contact with Marina Oswald and ask her what she thought of the whole Prayer Man situation. We agreed to put it forward to her, nothing ventured nothing gained right?
Stan Dane printed one of the better shots of the Wiegman and Darnell films alongside a picture of the book cover and sent these enlargements to her. No photo of Doorway man (a.k.a. Billy Lovelady) was sent to her at any time. Stan did not receive a reply so Ed Ledoux rang her and left a message on her answer machine not expecting to hear back from her. But less than 25 minutes later she rang back. He asked her whether she had received the images and she said she had.
Prayer Man enlargements sent to Marina Oswald. Pic. Stan Dane.
Out Of The Shadows Into The Light Prayer Man book cover. Pic. Stan Dane.
What follows is Ed Ledoux’s story abut this particular phone call:
I wanted Marina Oswald to tell me about that figure seen in the Darnell and Wiegman films Stan Dane had sent to her, a figure who was standing in the dark shadowy top left corner, one whom was labelled Figure J. in drawings by Richard Bernabei.
Occupants front steps of the T.S.B.D. by Richard Bernabei. Click pic. to enlarge.
I felt the need to explain everything first, as she immediately asked what this was all about and began to tell all the details as best as I could relate quickly to her about Weigman and Darnell, the steps, our research and that of others.
Sketch of Prayer Man and Bill Shelley on the front steps of the T.S.B.D. by Richard Bernabei. Click pic. to enlarge.
Sketch of Prayer Man, Billy Lovelady, Otis Williams and Bill Shelley on the front steps of the T.S.B.D. by Richard Bernabei. Click pic. to enlarge.
When I was about to mention Richard Bernabei’s annotated sketches of Weigman from the late 60’s, which were not sent to her, with the unknown figure marked J. she stopped me.
Marina interjected and said “That’s Lee” I was taken aback as she knew exactly what and who I had asked about. She volunteered her answer. I exclaimed “What?” to make sure I had heard her correctly. And she replied to me “It’s Lee.” and did so as quite a matter of fact.
There I was thinking, here is the one person besides Marguerite Oswald whom would know the likeness of Lee better than any armchair detective or internet warrior could. Here she was confirming the identity of her husband and in effect the work done by Sean Murphy until the 50th anniversary of the murder, and now carried on by the ROKC crew as a litmus test in the Kennedy assassination.
When I asked Marina about the images of Prayer Man to Lee she said, “Yes, seen it many times” like it was old news.
Well I was dazzled by her quick wit and retorts. She is no slouch when it comes to her late husband and the case.
Well I was dazzled by her quick wit and retorts. She is no slouch when it comes to her late husband and the case.
She said “They have dropped the assumed part, and just say he is guilty” so I explained the FBI and Justice Dept. have both closed the case and retroactively declared Lee guilty.
I asked if she knew of a way to help and she understood the problem.
She wanted to know my age, she sharing hers first like a lady. I shared mine and she said “Good, you’re young enough to get something done.”
I told her about the book, “Prayer Man, Out Of The Shadows And Into The Light” by Stan Dane.
Marina asked when it was published. I said it has been out three and a half years.
When I told her what information it had about documenting Lee on the first floor and in the vestibule, she responded resolutely, “I don’t need to be convinced.”
Marina was kind and soft spoken, wanted me to help her children who suffer the most by having a father wrongfully called a murderer. No jury, no trial, no full investigation, yet the United States legal system allows this.
I asked if she knew of a way to help and she understood the problem.
She wanted to know my age, she sharing hers first like a lady. I shared mine and she said “Good, you’re young enough to get something done.”
I told her about the book, “Prayer Man, Out Of The Shadows And Into The Light” by Stan Dane.
Marina asked when it was published. I said it has been out three and a half years.
When I told her what information it had about documenting Lee on the first floor and in the vestibule, she responded resolutely, “I don’t need to be convinced.”
Marina was kind and soft spoken, wanted me to help her children who suffer the most by having a father wrongfully called a murderer. No jury, no trial, no full investigation, yet the United States legal system allows this.
As Marina Oswald called me back in such a short time after I had left a message I did not record this call. But I did call her back again two weeks later, this was after I sent her Stan Dane’s book and asked her to give me her blessing to what she had said to me two weeks prior. In this conversation she stated that she had not read the Stan Dane book, as there were too many characters involved and that all they had to do is compare two faces; Lee and Billy Lovelady. The rest didn’t matter. Listen to the short recording below.
NBC Universal holds the original footage of Darnell and Wiegman from that day in 1963 when The President, John F. Kennedy, was murdered.
These original 16 mm films contain much better detail than the circulating ones. The copies that are around were transferred to 3/4 inch VHS tape nearly 60 years ago and are overall not very clear due to the generational gap and the artefacts it inherited due to the transfer.
Poor quality images allow the weak and timid to say it might be Lee or dispute it, and until better images they retort that they can’t agree it is Oswald, until its shown and proven to be Lee.
Thus the Prayer Man litmus test has enabled ROKC to sample those researchers genuinely looking to end all debate as to Lee’s innocence.
The naysayers dismiss with a wave of the hand the literal mountains of physical and documented evidence that puts Lee on the first floor during the assassination and outside during the shooting.
Naysayers accomplish this by saying the images taken from the films are to blurry.
Blurry yes, but good enough for them to identify Buell Frazier, and Billy Lovelady without second guesses.
I have spoken with Buell Frazier and I got the sense he recognises the figure but cannot allow himself to say what Marina effortlessly stated. “It’s Lee.”
Buell has identified himself in the films.
Buell Frazier in Darnell.
He has said he thought the figure near him called Prayer Man is Bill Shelley, Buell may default to Bill but he also realises Bill left the steps with Billy Lovelady to walk down to the rail yard and knoll area. Buell cant reconcile the figure with the logistics of those present.
I want to show Buell a better image too.
Slowly these things help to settle this important matter. Just over a week ago Bart managed to show a note made by FBI agent James Hosty which clearly stated that “He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch P. parade.”
This document and the Fritz interrogation notes show that Lee himself is giving his alibi to the police and knowing that Bill Shelley was there with him, only for police authorities to twist things and use it against him.
Lee said he stepped out to see what all the excitement was about as reported by Detective Ed Hicks.
Reporters were documenting this statement.
In his interview shortly before Lee was murdered by Jack Ruby, Postal Inspector Harry Holmes asked about Lee’s alibi.
Specifically that Lee was in the Vestibule or nearing the vestibule when the shooting took place. There is only one vestibule proper. It is between the two outer columns flanking the steps, up to the front door.
That is in part Oswald’s alibi, being out in the vestibule and knowing who else was on the steps.
I wanted to see the best images of those steps and who was in the vestibule and asked for and was granted a license for the Darnell film. Additionally I made an offer to transfer Darnell into 4k or 8k resolution, using the vendor of their choice to perform the scan and at my cost, but I was soon told that the powers that be had denied access to the film.
Rather than provide me the best quality image available NBC asked that I use a high quality format but media that was from a 3/4″ tape circa 1970’s era.
I declined to accept this paltry material.
I thank the folks who helped with the project, especially Bart Kamp, Greg Parker, and Stan Dane who have searched for the original films with me.
Thanks to the fine folks at ROKC I knew beyond a shadow that Lee was Prayer Man and I continued based on evidence that the films were in New York at the NBC ‘archives’ there.
The films are still awaiting a new Executive to allow access to study them.
Greg Parker has sent a public letter asking NBC Universal for the films to be accessed by researchers and students.
We are still waiting their reply.
Thanks to Marina I realised the truth has just begun.
Marina asked me about the films timing, she said it’s important. I explained that the limo is still seen exiting Dealey Plaza in the Dave Wiegman film, which syncs up with Wiegman and then Darnell, so its a matter of seconds.
Marina said that makes Lee innocent.
I agreed,…
I’ve spoke to Marina a few more times to update her on the Prayer Man project and various aspects of the case. I am going to tell her about the Sixth Floor Museums donation they received of a 2k copy of Darnell.
Alan Dale asked Stephen Fagin at the Lancer conference about the film and Fagin told that it can be viewed in the museum’s viewing room, but there is no zooming or slowing the playback there unfortunately.
I had mentioned to her that I would find better footage, as she was not positive NBC would ever allow access. So we are hopeful to have more to discuss in the future.
Feb
09
As I have mentioned before on the Prayer Man FB page I have been quite busy with putting a new website together for Dealey Plaza UK. Part of that website was trying to put some archives in there as well. It started with the Harold Rydberg materials, but shortly after I was asked to do the Harry Livingstone archives, or part of that as well. Malcolm Blunt asked me to do this to which I readily agreed. The work is still ongoing and means less online appearances unless there is something worthwhile to make mention of.
This research then also led to me digitising parts of Malcolm Blunt’s old Dallas collection. Malcolm does a lot of deep agency research and the Dallas material is from the period before that when he stayed in Dallas and in Washington in the 90’s.
So here I will show you a note made by Jim Hosty no one else has seen before or even bothered to share or simply overlooked it . It comes from the National Archives and it was Malcolm who found it. Who else as hardly anyone spends any real time at the National Archives in Washington than Malcolm!
Written on the backside of a D.P.D. affidavit sheet of paper, Hosty outlines what Oswald’s movements were and what he said.
Hand written notes by Jim Hosty. Click to enlarge.
What do you think P. stand for? Presidential? Yeah I agree. Presidential parade.
What this document does is:
1/ kills off a so called second floor lunch room encounter.
2/ places Lee Oswald outside while the Presidential motorcade went past the building.
This document is hand in hand with Will Fritz’s handwritten notes that mentions “Out with Bill Shelley in front”
Will Fritz handwritten note of Oswald’s interrogation.. Click pic. to enlarge.
Both attendees to the first interrogation of Lee Oswald wrote down where he claimed he was, not on the 6th floor, not waiting in the lunch room.
But outside with Bill Shelley while the Presidential parade went past.
Lee Oswald is the Prayer Man!
Prayer Man a.k.a. Lee Harvey Oswald. Click pic. to enlarge.
Jan
16
The most stubborn plonker in the village is at it again. Releasing a set of essays relating to the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. Obviously the wishful thinking and assumptions just pile up like there is no tomorrow. I already tore his previous work a new one, in short it was rubbish!
Let’s have a look at a few bits.
From the “Lunchroom” essay: Their paths should have intersected, but they didn’t. It is safe to conclude that Adams & Styles passed by Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom.
If Richard Gilbride had paid attention to the W.C. testimony of Roy Truly then he would have noticed that Roy Truly said that he leaned in, meaning his feet were still on the landing and that he peeked through, allegedly, while the door was held open! Furthermore has Gilbride ever paid attention to the size of the actual space between the landing and the lunch room door?
Second floor lunch room and corridor entry. Click to enlarge.
This is so small, no wonder Truly said he leaned in as it would have made no sense in a physical way for three people to stand there, even with Oswald being inside the lunch room for two or three feet, according to Baker.
Anything but with extraordinary confidence Richard!
2. On page 3 Richard Gilbride gives Adams 8 seconds to clear each floor going down (based on what?), whereas 5 would be more accurate, the amount of steps are not that many for anyone, whether in heels or not, to clear in 8 seconds unless they were doing it on one foot, they were rushing down those few stairs. That by itself proves to be already problematic for his timings overall.
On page 4 the first floor encounter is being described, the one that was attributed to Shelley and Lovelady and the girls, and which was false and made up by Jim Leavelle in Feb. 1964 when he interviewed Victoria Adams.
The man she and Styles encounter is in all likelihood Eddie Piper (“A tall black man”). Eddie Piper who stated during his W.C. in two sessions, as the first one did not nail things down enough to a satisfactory result for the W.C. Piper said during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting already, and consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds.
Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.”
On page 5 Gilbride makes a catastrophic mistake by assuming Baker races up those stairs in the Couch and Darnell film. Not only does the Couch film swerve to the left and away far quicker to Elm St and not even capture the front stairs. The Darnell film in its final moment before swerving to the left shows Baker at best in front of the pavement which is at least 10 feet away from the bottom step of the TSBD steps. He assumes (which he does a little too often) that Baker is on course for the steps whereas nothing could be further removed from the truth. Marrion Baker is veering to the right and was on his way between the TSBD and the DalTex building as he was not certain where the shots had come from. His W.C. testimony shows clearly he was not certain at all where the shots came from.
Gilbride omits that Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor!
In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs as well.
On page 6 and 7 it turns into a shambles and Gilbride brings Dorothy Garner’s statement through the Stroud document in play in conjunction with the descent of Adams and Styles and the ascent of Baker and Truly. Since Gilbride is dead wrong with these 2 and 2 crossing each other on the second floor it can be stated with great certainty that his calculations are way off and simply not true again.
“This heavy-duty door helped to muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet. Truly, Baker and Oswald were in an intense, confrontational situation just inside the lunchroom door frame. Even if they heard some noise from those high heels, it was only high heels- irrelevant to the gestalt- and they quickly forgot about it. ” This phrase on the bottom of page 7, in its entirety is baseless speculation.
On page 8 the assumptions continue, but I cannot be bothered to dive into every cherry in this terrible piece. And furthermore Sean Murpy has left this ‘scene’ so he cannot defend his actions, I only defend mine. Only to mention that he mentions SS inspector Kelley being present at 16:45 at Oswald’s second interrogation which he was not, he did not arrive until hours later in the evening.
Enough on this one.
Finally what is objectionable is the lack of mentioning one foot note or source in this essay. This is something he lambasted me for, missing the odd bit. Yet here we have ten pages without one referral.
Nice work……..eh no.
**************************************************************************************************************************
From Furthering The Lunchroom Evidence, his latest attempt….
On page 1 Gilbride makes the mistake that Thomas Kelley was present during the interrogations with Oswald while Baker was there. This is wrong as Kelley did not appear until Oswald’s 3rd at just before 8 PM. Kelley said in his WC testimony he arrived in the evening from Kentucky and not in the afternoon. Nor is Kelley listed as a participant of the 2nd interrogation. Sorrels and Lawson were there though.
Nor was Hosty present, Hosty was only there during the first interrogation.
Then some of the sorriest speculations are drummed up for poor ol’ Marrion Baker that the reader ought to stop right there and then, and ask for a bucket.
“Baker’s train of thought interrupted- which led to a couple of vague descriptions in the affidavit when describing his location within the unfamiliar Book Depository. Baker was
suddenly immersed in a situation where any accusatory statements he made could be misinterpreted adversely, later in a legal setting. And he apparently reacted with police
discipline and remained quiet about what he recognized. The less said, the better. But he was quite mindful of this omission. And as soon as his affidavit was typed up he
brought it into Marvin Johnson’s office. And confided to Johnson that this suspect was the same guy he’d encountered down at the Depository. He’d even “started to search the man.”
I am actually accusing Gilbride of lying and this part by itself shows that Richard Gilbride has not learned one iota from his exercise over a year ago which I rightly nailed to the cross then.
The BS continues with Baker recognising Oswald and exclaiming that he was the man encountered as such. There is no proof for this besides Johnson’s report, who even mentions that Baker frisked him which he did not, and that Baker picked him out in a line-up. Which he did not.
If Baker, as according to Johnson had recognised Oswald as that man encountered o the 3rd or 4th floor then this would have been brought up during those interrogation right there and then! And Oswald would have had a much harder time there and then, but no….the 2nd floor encounter did not become public near noon on the 23rd. At least after two more interrogations!!!!
The speculations continue until the end of page 6 and it is quite painful how someone can actually write this stuff based on his own deluded assumptions which are nothing but a terrible hoax.
That Gilbride has made a pact with one of the worst internet deniers in this scene by the name of Brian Doyle is nothing short of a surprise, and he even brings up one of the worst interviews ever done by Brian Doyle and the grand kids of Sarah Stanton. This interview is known for Brian Doyle leading the ladies during this interview. Doyle also shoots himself in the foot with the hearsay answer that Sarah Stanton asked Oswald was going to go out for lunch and watch the parade and at that time was holding a soda. That is before lunch! Therefore killing of any lunch room encounter, any encounter with Mrs Robert Reid after the Baker & Truly encounter as well. Yet here is Richard Gilbride using this crap for his own benefit.
What Gilbride does very well is to leave the embarrassing part out of Brian Doyle making a complete mess of himself by trying to put Sarah Stanton in the position of Prayer Man wearing a wig for professional reasons, yes dear reader a real mind boggle. Wearing a wig for pro reasons……just so she can be seen as Prayer Man.
The massive speculation by Gilbride and the lying by Brian Doyle at various points just to stitch his own version of the evidence together has turned this whole thing into a massive joke with these two disinfo clowns.
Jan
12
The Darnell film at the 6th floor museum
Click picture to enlarge.
During and shortly after the recent Lancer conference I was in contact with two individuals, who would try to get in touch with Stephen Fagin of the 6th Floor Museum and ask about the Jimmy Darnell film. It was the late Gary Mack who mentioned a first generation copy in the museum’s possession from 2008. His last mention was shortly before he passed away in 2015. You can read more about this in the huge post I made a couple of years ago.
To some the answer to proving, as in cherry on top, that Prayer Man is actually Lee Harvey Oswald lies in the Darnell film, to me not a chance in hell unless there happens to be a sharp frame in the roughly 5 seconds of that particular film sequence. The film, and especially the happenings on the stairs, offer some value in those frames. Some of the detail has been washed out and is too blurry to actually identify all people on those steps. S some individuals could be recognised with a better copy, but when it comes to ID-ing Lee Oswald being there on the first step below the landing is doubtful.
Alan Dale asked Stephen Fagin after a talk during the Lancer Conference in Nov. 2018 about whether the 6th Floor Museum had a copy of the Darnell film and if so when could scholars get access to it?
This then got the reply: “Funny as you mention this we are about to give access to a digital 2K copy of the Darnell film in our reading room”. That is partial good news, its existence has been acknowledged, but 2K is not 4K which it should have been. Since this film could give a lot of info on T.S.B.D. employees I would have not spared any money to get the best optimal result from the 16 mm film.
Stu Wexler had one of his friends go there and I asked Scott Reid to pay the Museum a visit as he happened to be in Dallas at that time. Sadly neither could give me anything conclusive and on top of that Scott managed to tell me that he could only stop and start the movie, not zoom in nor go for a slow motion setting either, so overall that was not very helpful.
The big let down is the fact that the film can only be seen in the Reading Room inside the 6th floor museum, you have to physically be there. Copies cannot be made for copyright reasons. I have asked whether it would be possible to get some still copies and that might still be possible, the powers that be will need to give their consent before this happens, whenever that may be. Will keep you posted.
