Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter.
Last updated Dec 6th 2016.
This essay got too big for its own good, more than 23,000 words which resulted in the blog software unable to cope and ended up crashing numerous times.
Thanks to Bernard Wilds webmaster of DPUK we now have a PDF of the Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter available, at 81 pages a light read ;)
Update Dec 6th 2016: this article has been awarded the Mary Ferrell and JFK Lancer New Frontier Award in late November.
Credit: Stan Dane.
Lately a few individuals have tried to claim that Prayer Man was very short and they used ‘calculations’ and the ‘fact’ that Lovelady was standing on the landing when Dave Wiegman filmed the front of the TSBD. They used Lovelady’s height to ‘prove’ that Prayer Man (read: Lee Harvey Oswald) was way shorter and could not possibly be Oswald.
Let’s debunk this shall we?
All types of faulty and/or made-up calculations and lines drawn on a picture were presented as analytical research, none of which was supported by any type of evidence. No one bothered to mention what camera Wiegman was using, nor could any one present an exact location as to where Wiegman was filming from, add on that all this happened while the vehicle he was standing in was moving which makes it even more difficult to ascertain Wiegman’s position.
In short: utter junk science that no one else than the believers Richard Gilbride and Albert Doyle seemed to subscribe to and they ended up trolling a few forums with their science.
While going through the photos of the Wiegman film I came across a neat little find two days ago, something that I was only able to do so as we managed to get a high resolution scan from the NARA archives in the Richard E. Sprague collection.
The find was Bill Shelley (underneath No.3), with Prayer Man being No. 1 and Billy Lovelady No. 2. This pic. is from the second segment Wiegman filmed of the front of the TSBD and it also shows that Lovelady has stepped down (compared to his position in the first segment) and it also shows that Shelley has moved slightly more to the left (he is now behind Otis Williams whereas he is more to the right of him in the first segment, see the 4th photograph below). This is a good indicator that while the shots were fired they already made a move to go down and check out what was going on. The two Gerda Dunckel GIFs show that Shelley and Lovelady had left the steps and made their way to the rail road yard further west of the building within seconds after. I go in great detail about this HERE.
Shelly was standing on the top of the landing. Whereas Lovelady was not, I will get to that in a moment.
Lovelady had a very curious attitude as he is seen in much lower on the steps and to the left, behind Roy Lewis/Carl Edward Jones in the Hughes film. This is while the motorcade is turning on to Elm St.
Altgens 6 shows that Lovelady moved up and further to the right, his distance is further away from Lewis/Jones.
Albert Doyle and Richard Gilbride have been claiming, that Prayer Man is too short to be Oswald. This of course is not supported by anything but made-up calculations and picking up pseudo science from other peeps such as Drew Phipps and presenting pix with neat little lines and numbers that basically amount to nothing. Not one person at the forums this bunk was posted at supported any of it.
The kicker is that Lovelady was not standing on the top landing, because he is seen leaning against the railing in the first segment of the Wiegman film. Check his body posture compared to all other individuals on those steps, they are all standing straight, even though Lovelady is following the events happening down Elm St and his body is turned into that direction his body posture shows he is leaning. Take a look at the 2nd segment photo and you see that Lovelady is standing straight on the steps, as he is making a move going downwards
The issue with that is you cannot lean against the railing while standing on the top landing!
See for yourself in the photograph below. The railing is mounted flush on the vertical part of the last step leading to the landing, the bar of the railing would be slightly in front of the landing. The deniers will claim that it is still possible, yet it would be so awkward and since Lovelady’s posture doesn’t ascribe to that it is safe to say that Lovelady from standing just behind Roy Lewis / Carl Edward Jones moved upward and to the right to the 5th or the 6th step of the TSBD stairs.
The lens Wiegman used was a wide angle lens, this creates distortions and Lovelady while moving downward as in the 2nd segment would appear slightly taller than Prayer Man since he is, by that time, standing more forward.
But what is more important is that Prayer Man is of roughly the same height as Lovelady and THAT makes Prayer Man, besides the enormous amount of other evidence a prime candidate to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
No other TSBD worker has been identified for that position.
Oswald himself said: ”Out with Bill Shelley, in front”.
No dwarf either.
Albert Doyle and Richard Gilbride should get back to the drawing board and come up with their next scheme as this one, like their previous ones is dead in the water.
Then there is another issue as to what Prayer Man was doing with the shiny object he is bring towards his face.
On my calibrated screen (and if you do not have one you may experience issues seeing this clearly as I do) the Wiegman film shows he using one hand (his right) to bring iot towards his mouth. This is not a camera! But more than likely the bottle that was photographed in Prayer Man’s position after the deed.
Close-ups of Robin Unger’s gif.
Peggy Joyce Hawkins (maiden name Bibbler) met her husband at the TSBD along with her child, she stood roughly 50 feet away from the Texas School Book Depository when the shots rang out and she hid behind the retaining wall. After realising no more shots were being fired and returning to the TSBD she saw a policeman stand there, and heard some remarks about the railroad yard through the police radio.
The Darnell film only shows Baker’s run, it does not show him going up the steps, it has been automatically assumed he dashed up the stairs before Roy Truly could catch up with him. The story of them going up the stairs together has always been met with disbelief. You can see Truly in the Darnell film slowly turning and making his way towards the front steps, but at a slow speed compared to Baker. Then again the steps were pretty filled up with employees, some had left but others were returning and the whole east side of the steps was filled with mostly women looking out and discussing what had happened and Joe Molina stood at the very top. Buell Wesley Frazier stood dead centre.
But Peggy Joyce Hawkins. statement puts some doubt into this. This you can see at the bottom of page 1 of her FBI statement. She walked back to the TSBD and saw a motorcycle police officer in front of the building. Now unless some other motorcycle police officer went there it could be assumed that Marrion L. Baker stood longer outside than has been assumed.
The radio transmission she speaks of is Jesse Curry’s who said this while the cars were passing the triple underpass.
At 12:30 Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there.
She also made her way back into the building, and this is confirmed by the so called roll call sheet. This roll call sheet itself isn’t much from an evidentiary p.o.v., as Geraldine Reid is mentioned twice, Charles Douglas Givens is missing and Lee Oswald is right at the top (which points more to his name being taken down from the word go than him being the missing person!).
What doesn’t help is the second page of her FBI statement that she doesn’t remember who she encountered while making her way back. And let’s face it, this is a black hole overall with most statements from that day.
But then there is Robert Mac Neil, a journalist, who was part of the motorcade and who went into the TSBD to make a phone call. This call being logged at 12:36 and him stating that he did not see any police inside the building while making the call, and this has a ring of truth to it, since his head office reported the time, but also looking at the radio transmissions and the prders of going to the TSBD and investigate further.
At 12:34 I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.
At 12:36 Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.
At 12:37 Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It’s believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end.
I am now pretty convinced Baker and Truly stood outside, this witness testimony in conjunction with Chris Davidson’s gif which shows Baker veering further to the right than the actual steps.
Add on Jan 30th
This might be Peggy Bibbler Hawkins standing and holding her child. If this is her then she had an excellent vantage point to hear the motorcycle belonging to Marrion Baker and look towards the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository.
This post has been amended on Jan 29th, Feb 14th, Feb 16th and Oct. 14th 2016.
I am going to put an end to this debate whether Lovelady and Shelly stayed on the steps as they claimed in their Warren Commission testimonies and to which certain people subscribe to for some obscure reason, there is just plenty to refute this rubbish assertion.
For starters, take a look at the Gerda Dunckel gifs below and check Lovelady’s shirt in the very first few frames and also check out the large still I snagged from PBS Breaking The News, click to enlarge, yes that shirt is checkered, compare it to other garments of a lighter colour or the polka dot coat which do not smudge due to motion and quality loss. Then look at Shelly, with his black suit and his facial and hair features. For reference of who we are talking about I suggest you check out Billy Lovelady’s and Bill Shelley’s pages I have made which contain plenty of photographs of these two individuals. Both pages are still under construction but there is plenty to see from a visual point of view.
Upon looking at the image by Couch we see that Shelly wears a black jacket and that Lovelady’s shirt has black horizontal stripes in it. I will place a close-up below. This is not the end result of sharpening and cannot be construed as a digital artefact. Click to enlarge the shot above and you will see that these stripes are nowhere else to be seen on this image. The polka dot coat stays as is, the camouflage/dot coat as well. And even in the light toned skirts/coats there are no such markings to be seen.
Here is a collage of Lovelady’s shirt in many settings, and with motion blur applied, the black stripes become a feature once motion blur gets into the picture.
Add on photographs Oct 14th 2016.
This ROKC Scan of a Couch film still at first looks very harsh and doesn’t overall have much information, but it does happen to show a lot regarding our illustrious duo. This print comes from the Richard E. Sprague Collection from the National Archives.
I applied various ways of sharpening with overall decent results to be absolutely positive that these two are Shelley and Lovelady. Lovelady’s shirt is a dead give away and so is the shape of Shelley, compare that with the collage below.
As strong as this looks it could be dismissed as an interpretation of a few photographs. So let’s have a look at the paperwork with Lovelady’s and Shelley’s statements and testimonies.
Lovelady’s very first handwritten statement on Nov 22nd 1963 makes no mention of Oswald even after he is paraded past him.
But that very same statement also makes no mention of them (him and Shelley) leaving the steps either. He actually states: ”After it was over we went back into the building and went to work” With the ‘went to work’ bit stricken through. This bit is omitted from the typed up and signed report. See the first two documents below.
But then Billy Lovelady states in the FBI report by Robert M. Barrett from the same day as his affidavit to the DPD: ”immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelly started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building”. During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw no suspicious individuals.
Lovelady also mentions in document CE 1381 the following: “I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy’s car had stopped William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building”.
In all fairness I have to add that overall CE 1381 needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, since 73 employees of the TSBD were asked a specific set of questions compiled by the Commission via Hoover to answer to. Something Harold Weisberg pointed out very early on with the “At that time” question.
Shelly (trying to enter the police vehicle) leaves for the DPD station at 13:30 with Danny Arce Garcia and Bonnie Ray Williams as seen below.
He states in his very first affidavit on Nov. 22nd “I ran across the street to a corner of the park. I ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery. Who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened.” This first statement, like Lovelady’s, contains no reference to Lee Harvey Oswald either. I also value this first statement for the inclusion of him running across after the shots were fired.
FBI Statement of Bill Shelly March 18th 1964 CE 1381: “Immediately following the shooting Billy Lovelady and I left…….”
The primary statements of these two contradict their WC testimony which no one bothered to ask about while they were giving their testimony.
Warren Commission Testimonies.
Now the only thing that I find true of their WC testimonies is the fact that they left the steps together.
In Shelly’s WC testimony things are given a nice twist, they stay there for a minute, they have Gloria Calvery coming up the steps doing her bit which contradicts his first statement. The island gets a mention here. Truly and Baker are seen after 3 or 4 minutes! And then they leave and then are re-entering through the back of the building.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said “The President has been shot” and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL. Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY. That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY. There’s concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn’t it?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, that’s also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL. You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL. How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL. The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. FALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHFZLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The Vice President hadn’t gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY. I don’t know. I didn’t recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL. And Truly? Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building7
Mr. SHELLEY. So; we didn’t watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin’ to go in.
Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BAL.L. Were they running?
Xr. SHELLEY. That, I couldn’t swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL. What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the flrst railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes ; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY. He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL. Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who else did you see?
Nr. SHELLEY. That’s all we saw immediately.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw her that day but I don’t remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL. You don’t remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL. You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Nr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr. BALL. Now, did the police come into the building?
Illr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir ; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL. Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don’t know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Billy Lovelady fantasises even some more.
I have added some notes in bold.
Mr. BALL – Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yeah.
Mr. BALL – When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY – Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or–she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn’t know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL – First of all, let’s get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY – Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL – Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY – Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes—
Mr. BALL – You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY – No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL – That’s all?
Mr. LOVELADY – And hollerin.
Mr. BALL – How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY – I don’t know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess—
Mr. BALL – They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY – Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL – By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY – As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL – How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY – Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL – Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes. At no time in the Couch film is Lovelady seen looking back.
Mr. BALL – Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY – Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL – Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY – Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL – And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL – You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY – Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL – Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes, it’s—I say approximately; I can’t say because I don’t have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL – Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY – Well, I couldn’t say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn’t looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps–see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL – Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY – Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL – A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY – Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL – You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes. Again at no time in the Couch film is Lovelady seen looking back or responding to any hollering.
Lovelady then also destroys Vicky Adams’ testimony from a time perspective with his WC testimony, so the Commission can claim she was wrong.
It has become obvious that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were lying while being interviewed by Joseph Ball all to mess with the timings perspective with regards Oswald and them going back to one of the rear entrances since that would also show how long it took before the building was actually secured. The TSBD exits after the shooting resembled Swiss cheese for many minutes after the shooting.
These statements and the Warren Commission testimonies by Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady show plenty that they did leave the steps almost immediately after the shooting and that they cannot be accounted on the steps for in the Jimmy Darnell film, besides walking westwards and being seen doing so in a better capture in the Malcolm Couch film.
Shelly was Oswald’s supervisor and worked directly under Roy Truly.
Lovelady had a weapons charge dangling of which Ochus Campbell (Roy Truly’s boss) paid off the remainder of Lovelady’s fine as he was being re-arrested for non-payment.
You wonder where these men’s loyalties lie? Not with someone who only joined a month before the big event and who later on it turned out to be living in Russia for almost three years
There is quite a bit pointing to that Shelly and Lovelady left the steps to go west of the TSBD almost within 15/20 seconds after the last shot.