Nov
10
John Abt representing Lee Oswald
John Abt
In my paper Anatomy Of Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations the name John Abt pops up quite a few times. Some people, like Will Fritz, said Oswald wanted Abt to represent him on Friday. This was rubbish as I already shown in that paper that the record stated Oswald made his very first two phone calls in the early afternoon of the 23rd (pages 225 & 226 from the PDF linked to above), almost 24 hours after being dragged in after his arrest in the Texas Theatre. One of those calls was an attempt to call New York. That by itself is a good indicator that Oswald wanted to contact Abt on the 23rd.
In the pages below (thanks to Malcolm Blunt) Abt tells of a CBS reporter contacting him on Saturday morning that Oswald wanted Abt to represent him and unless Oswald himself would make that request not much was going to happen.
Click the images to enlarge them.
Then there is a video segment (starting at 5:25, on the third floor of Dallas City Hall, it shows Oswald being escorted through the corridor on his way from Fritz’s office to the jail elevator.
It is shot on Nov 23rd after Oswald’s first interrogation roughly at 11:30, he is in his white t-shirt only and then stops just before entering the door to the jail elevator and being pulled in by the D.P.D. detectives. But Oswald manages to talk to one of the reporters be it for a few seconds. The audio is sadly missing as the microphone was not plugged in. Denis Morissette and I were discussing this segment since this part was ‘new’ to me and he had brought it to my attention.
Later on in the same video segment we can see A.B.C.’s Bob Clark as the man whose microphone Oswald was talking in to and eventually there is a different microphone pushed forward to catch Clark’s voice.
This is the moment where Oswald asked to get in touch with John Abt. Clark talks about this moment in this PBS video (at 46:00) from 2003. Oswald stated into Clark’s dead microphone “I want to contact Mr. Abt of New York City, to serve as my attorney”.
Saturday Nov 23rd at about 11:30 Oswald made the very first statement that he wanted John Abt to represent him and not any earlier. This by itself is supported by the reports from Saturday morning by Will Fritz himself, James Bookhout and Thomas Kelley made up on the 10:30 interrogation.
Add on Dec 13 2021.
Then there is a document which I found at the Harold Weisberg archive by Peggy Simpson which seems to have been sent before midday on the 23rd and makes mention of Oswald’s request for John Abt during the above mentioned happening in the corridor.
Nov
08
Howard Roffman to Richard Bernabei 1970
Howard Roffman wrote extensively with Harold Weisberg, but also with Richard Bernabei. I have managed to gotten hold of quite a bit of material myself after contacting his archive in Kingston and I also know that Denis Morissette went there and he sent me quite a few pages as well. I still have to go through all this. While browsing through the folder I came across this letter from 1970 that I gotten hold off in 2016.
It basically discusses the Couch film and Marrion Baker. Roffman did extensive research in the relation between the Couch film and Marrion Baker’s run almost 50 years ago. He also brings Gloria Calvery, Joe Molina and other T.S.B.D. employees’ statements in the fold and uses his common sense as most of his observations still stand today. Cool read.
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- Howard Roffman to Richard Bernabei – 1
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- Howard Roffman to Richard Bernabei – 2
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- Howard Roffman to Richard Bernabei – 3
Sep
03
The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.
Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
- Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
- Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly in different locations. Pages 24-25.
- Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
- In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
- Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
- Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
- Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
- In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states “they saw no one there” Page 46.
- Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
- Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up as is stated. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
- Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
- Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
- Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
- Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
- Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
- Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
- Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
- While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
- Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
- Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
- The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
- The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
- During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
- The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
- Mrs Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
- Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
- Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
- Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
- The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B.D. much later. Pages 112-113.
- Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
- Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
- The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press on Nov 23rd is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
- Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
- Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. In a new found document, a draft document by James Hosty, states that Oswald had a coke for his lunch and then went outside the watch the P. parade. Pages 136-146.
- The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening outside and inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
Aug
31
Lee Harvey Oswald’s Interrogations in a Nutshell.
Featured in National Review magazine. Scan from NARA.
Click HERE (32.9MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be viewed here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- Oswald is arrested inside the Texas Theatre and according to Sergeant Gerald Hill Oswald demands a lawyer and complains about police brutality (page 22).
- Frank Underwood is inside the same elevator Oswald is going up to the third floor with. Oswald tells him he did not kill anybody (page 23).
- Gerald Hill who is being interviewed twice shortly after Oswald’s arrest and drop off on the third floor states Oswald’s name in both instances. There is no mention of the Hidell name (page 24).
- Before Oswald is talked to by Rose and Stovall he is frisked by Charles Truman Walker, who was present during his arrest at the Texas Theatre and is part of the group of policemen dropping Oswald off on the third floor of City Hall. He does not find anything in his pockets (page 25). Yet before Oswald’s first line-up with Helen Markham detectives Sims and Boyd find 5 bullets and a bus ticket in his pockets almost 2.5 hours later (page 83).
- Kent Biffle destroys the roll call(s) scenario from Roy Truly from a timing perspective (pages 29-30).
- While Oswald is being talked to by detectives Gus Rose and Richard Stovall it emerges that both detectives contradict themselves during their Warren Commission testimony when it comes to whether Oswald used the Hidell or Oswald name by way of identification (pages 27-28).
- In the past few decades detective Jim Leavelle has positioned himself as the person who interrogated Oswald before Captain Will Fritz did, whereas the statements by him during his Warren Commission testimony and his own written statement contradict this (pages 30-34).
- Detective Joe Cody inserts himself as well as the person who talked to L.H.O. before Will Fritz interrogated him. This is only backed up by him and no documentation (pages 34-36).
- T.L. Baker confirms it was Rose and Stovall who had a chat with Oswald before he was interrogated by Will Fritz (page 37).
- Before Will Fritz returns to City Hall from the T.S.B.D. he makes a detour via Sheriff Bill Decker’s office. Nothing is known about what was discussed between the two (page 38).
- Will Fritz did not audio record the interviews and could have borrowed equipment to do so, nor used a stenographer, during the first interrogation James Hosty is the only person who took notes. Fritz’s handwritten notes are not contemporary.
- During Will Fritz’s first interrogation, according to his handwritten notes, Oswald clearly stated where he was at the time of the shooting. “Out with Bill Shelley, in front.” (page 40). A handwritten document by F.B.I. agent James Hosty states “Then went outside to watch P. Parade” (page 54).
- This very same document by Hosty states that Oswald got his coke for his lunch. And this is repeated in the typed up joint Hosty-Bookhout report (page 65).
- B.I. agent James Bookhout changes this narrative in his solo report from Nov. 24th to an encounter inside the second floor lunch room (page 66).
- After Oswald’s first interrogation with Will Fritz, he is being questioned by Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service. Oswald thinks he is a lawyer and once known to him that he is S.S. he wonders whether Sorrels is supposed to get him an attorney (page 69).
- There are plenty of indicators that the line-ups were not as impartial as they should have been (pages 84-85).
- The first line-up with Helen Markham is nothing short of a drama as she needs to be sedated beforehand (page 93).
- Helen Markham during her W.C. testimony denied no less than six times recognising Lee Oswald as Tippit’s killer (pages 86-88).
- Marrion Baker overhears Oswald shouting ‘I want a lawyer’ during the second interrogation (page 95)
- Roger Craig sees and reports that Oswald left around 12:42 from the T.S.B.D. running down the hill in front of the T.S.B.D. and confronts him later on in the office of Will Fritz (pages 96 – 106).
- During the second line-up Cecil McWatters has difficulty picking Lee Oswald out as the man who was on his bus (page 104).
- Sam Guinyard and Ted Callaway who work not far away from the location where Tippit was shot, contradict each other during their W.C. testimonies (pages 109-112).
- Ted Callaway also mentions a second person involved in the shooting, and according to Domingo Benavides he asked him what happened and which direction the killer had gone.
- Galloway’s and Guinyard’s statements are taken before the line-up. The two men’s handwritten statements are taken and the No. 2 ID is added on the typed statement after (page 108).
- The biggest absentee from this group of men is Domingo Benavides, he was closest to the Tippit killing and must have been able to identify Tippit’s killer. The D.P.D. does not get a statement from him nor is he asked to identify the killer during the line-up(s) and he only appears in front of the W.C. in March 1964 (page 113).
- At about 19:10 hrs Oswald is arraigned for the murder of officer Tippit by Justice of the Peace David Johnston. There are several detectives present, plus Captain Fritz and Chief of Police Jesse Curry. Their remembrance as to what exactly happened is hazy to say the least (pages 114-116).
- Shortly after the arraignment Oswald is being filmed complaining of not having legal representation present during this hearing and again denies having shot anyone (page 117).
- Oswald’s second line-up for the Davis sisters has the Dallas Police put two blonds in the lineup along with Oswald and Ables (page 118-121).
- After the line-up Oswald appears in the corridor again and asks for legal representation, and also mentions that he did not shoot anyone and that people keep asking him that. At the end of that very short walk back into Fritz’s office he exclaims to be a patsy (pages 122-123).
- Shortly after Henry Wade arrives at City Hall and is surprised to see Jim Allen inside Will Fritz’s Robbery & Homicide office. Allen is a former assistant D.A. and at that time a private citizen yet is a close friend of Fritz (pages 123-124).
- Buell Frazier is brought in the evening and interrogated. There is a report by Frazier that Will Fritz brought in a statement for him to sign that made him an accomplice to Oswald’s killing of J.F.K. to which Frazier refused to go along with. Fritz raised his hand following that, after which Frazier promised him a hell of a fight. Later on that evening Frazier is subjected to a polygraph test, the results of this test have diappeared (pages 126-128).
- In the evening Oswald has his fingerprints and palmprints taken, but the Dallas police also takes paraffin tests of his hands and his right cheek to determine whether he fired a weapon. E. ‘Pete’ Barnes had not applied this test to a suspect’s face ever before. Nor would it not have made one iota of difference in determining whether Oswald had fired a rifle that day and the tests itself can be questioned for the fact that Oswald’s finger prints were taken before the paraffin tests (pages 129-137).
- Assistant D.A. Bill Alexander, along with Jim Allen, wants to charge Oswald with J.F.K.’s murder as part of an international communist conspiracy. Higher ups make him retract this (pages 138-143).
- Howard Brennan appears at City Hall to view a line-up and fails to I.D. Oswald as the sixth floor shooter (pages 144-152).
- B.I. agent Manning Clemments interrogates Oswald on his physical description and background information (pages 153-158).
- Detective John Adamcik (who speaks a little Russian) interrogates Oswald before Oswald makes his appearance at the press conference (pages 159-160).
- Greg Olds and a few of his A.C.L.U. colleagues arrive at City Hall late in the evening to ascertain whether Oswald is having any legal representation, they are given the run around by some of Fritz’s people (pages 162-169).
- In the very early morning of Nov. 23rd Oswald stands in front of the press exclaiming having no idea what the whole situation is about and asks a few times for legal representation in the very short time he is actually allowed to talk (pages 174-179).
- After the press conference Oswald is taken to jail and Henry Wade talks to the press. During this Wade makes mention of a fictitious cab driver by the name Daryl Click. More importantly Wade has to admit that while the papers have been signed to accuse Oswald of killing J.F.K. at least an hour before Oswald is yet to find out. There are strong indicators this was never done (pages 181-183 and 186-223).
- Oswald has finger prints and his mug shot taken after the press conference, he also has to hand over his shirt which is taken in by the F.B.I. and flown to Washington shortly after (pages 184-185).
- Besides Oswald’s bus ride a cab ride is inserted in Fritz’s interrogation notes from the first interrogation on the 23rd, but also the Domino Room situation with junior and one other Negro gets a mention. Fritz barely investigates this, as this would provide Oswald an alibi for the time period after 12:00 whereas J. E. Hoover wants a follow up handled promptly (pages 204-207).
- James Bookhout’s, Thomas Kelley’s reports and Fritz’s notes make a first mention of John Abt during the Saturday morning interrogation (pages 206, 210 and 213).
- During this very same interrogation the Hidell name pops up for the first time according to the reports by Fritz, Kelley and Bookhout and the W.C. Commission testimony of Forest Sorrels (pages 208, 210, 213, 215 and 217).
- Inspector Thomas J Kelley of the Secret Service writes in his report of that interrogation that he asked him ‘if he viewed the parade and he said he had not’ this cannot be corroborated by Fritz’s or Bookhout’s notes at all (pages 209-214).
- Joe Molina, of the accounting department of the T.S.B.D., arrives at the D.P.D. after a visit by some heavy weights in the middle of night who searched through his house for a few hours and come up with nothing of significance. He is being kept at the D.P.D. for roughly 7 hours and loses his job about one month later as Chief Curry names him to the press as a subversive person (pages 218-223).
- Harold McDervid, a Chicago lawyer, has offered council to Oswald via telegram after trying via the phone before. His messages are filed away never to reach Oswald (pages 224-225).
- Marina and Marguerite Oswald get to see Lee for about half an hour.
- Oswald is interrogated again for a brief period mainly to ascertain where his belongings are and what his place(s) of residence are (page 226).
- Oswald could not call anyone until Nov 23rd at 13:40 almost 24 hours after his arrest. This is his first attempt at calling John Abt (page 229).
- Oswald’s line-up in front of William Whaley and William Scoggins. This time he is accompanied by three fellow prisoners, of which one is of Mexican heritage. During the transfer to the line-up Oswald is heard bitterly complaining about the difference in appearance by just wearing a t-shirt to anyone who can hear it (231-233).
- William Whaley identifies the wrong man (No. 2) as the killer of Tippit. Oswald was No. 3, and Whaley needed to correct himself during his W.C. testimony. Whaley also admitted signing a statement before he was taken to the line-up and again had to correct himself. Nor did he read the statement before signing it. Whaley’s W.C. testimony with regards to what Oswald was wearing is enough to disqualify him as a reliable witness. (pages 233-242).
- William Scoggins had seen a picture of Oswald in the paper on the morning of the 23r and he described the assailant going west before the murder, this would exclude Oswald being the killer as Helen Markham said the assailant was travelling east (pages 242-246).
- Robert Oswald gets to visit his brother Lee for about ten minutes after a four hour wait, during the conversation they have Lee tells his brother to not form any opinion on the so- called evidence (pages 248-253).
- Lee Oswald makes another call, one of which to Ruth Pain who is anything but helpful. Nobody knows at that time where his wife, Marina, is (pages 254-260).
- Louis Nichols visits Oswald in jail to enquire about whether Oswald has legal representation (pages 261-265).
- Oswald can be heard during a transfer towards Fritz’s office demanding hygienic rights (page 266).
- During the interrogation following the transfer the back yard photos are introduced to Oswald. He denies it is him in the photographs (pages 267-271).
- After this interrogation Oswald is led down the corridor again and is captured saying he “emphatically denies these charges” (page 271).
- Shortly after that Will Fritz appears in front of the reporters and declares Oswald being the killer of The President without going into evidence (pages 272-273).
- In the evening of Nov. 23rd when Oswald comes out of the jail elevator room Marrion Baker happens to stand very near the entrance. Upon spotting Oswald he ducks away (page 273).
- After returning to his cell Oswald makes another phone call which happens to last 30 minutes (page 276).
- An alleged Raleigh call to/from Oswald to John Hurt never happened (pages 277-279).
- On Sunday morning Oswald is interrogated one last time. Postal Inspector Harry Dean Holmes is a new addition to the group of people interrogating him, his report and W.C. testimony of that particular interrogation nullifies the second floor lunch room encounter (pages 281-302).
- Following this interrogation Oswald is transferred and subsequently shot and killed by Jack Ruby (pages 303-307).
- After Oswald’s killing a piece of paper with phone numbers is found on him. One of these numbers has not been in use since 1956 (page 309).
- By having a close look at Fritz’s report after time stamping the daily reports and statements it has become abundantly clear that Will Fritz twisted things round, not in favour of Oswald’s innocence of shooting Tippit and J.F.K., but to ascertain his guilt (pages 310-324).
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
May
05
Today I came across an article that I had read about when I read “Into The Nightmare” by Joe McBride. The article in question is called: The other Witnesses by George and Patricia Nash for the The New Leader in 1964 (pages 105 – 109). This article largely looks into the Tippit murder and points out other witnesses which were never properly interviewed nor brought forward. In this article at the end the second floor lunch room encounter is brought up as well and more importantly that Bill Shelley told them that Truly and Baker entered the T.S.B.D. five or six minutes after the shooting. This of course destroys the W.C. timings once again, which were set at 75-90 seconds and of course Oswald’ departure in 3 minutes after the deed.
I’d love to see George and Patricia Nash’s archives.
Mar
27
Oswald’s Shirt
I expect t
I expect this article will be amended in the near future. Since I have a paper coming out soon I needed a referral article to start off with.
Oswald’s shirt at the 6th Floor Museum. Click to enlarge. Screen grab B.K.
Lee Oswald would wear a shirt on his way to and from the Texas School Book Depository and be working in his T-shirt inside the building. He was captured inside the Texas Theater wearing a brownish shirt and after the scuffle inside, his arrest and ride to City Hall he can be seen with this shirt hanging of one shoulder entering City Hall’s third floor.
In this post we will have a look at that brown shirt he wore on the 22nd. The shirt he allegedly changed into after a bus & cab ride to his rooming house after having ‘escaped’ from the T.S.B.D.
Oswald is seen wearing this shirt for the whole duration of the 22nd. Only just after the midnight press conference is he asked to hand it over. F.B.I. Special Agent Vince Drain eventually takes possession and flies with it and the rest of the evidence overnight to Washington for the F.B.I. to analyse it.
Lee Oswald was allowed to wear his own clothes for the day. Whereas Jack Ruby was put in a white uniform quite quickly after murdering Oswald.
Vincent Drain’s trip from Dallas to Washington with the assassination evidence. Click to enlarge.
Several people, who had seen or interacted with Oswald at various times that day were asked whether they recognised this shirt as the garment Oswald was wearing on the 22nd. And by going through the statements of them we get the following:
Oswald’s shirt. Click to enlarge.
Here are their statements just regarding that particular shirt.
Oswald’s shirt. CE 150. Click to enlarge.
From that whole group of statements is one important person missing, and that is Marrion Lewis Baker, who allegedly encountered Oswald in the second floor lunch room, which we know is complete and utter rubbish. Let’s study his W.C. testimony.
Mr. BELIN – Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER – At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
Mr. BELIN – Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came.I wouldn’t be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Mr. BELIN – What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER – I couldn’t say whether that was–it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn’t say it was that or not.
Mr. DULLES – Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn’t quite hear.
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN – Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER – Well, it would be similar in color to it–I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn’t really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn’t pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. BELIN – Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN – Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER – He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN – Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER – I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little coloured jacket, that is all I can say.
Baker’s testimony is very telling and one can only draw the conclusion that he did not see him at the T.S.B.D. why wouldn’t any copper not know what a possible suspect wore after an encounter as such. This is basic stuff for any law enforcement officer to notice and memorise.
Captain Will Fritz made mention of two changes of Oswald’s ‘escape’. The first one was the inclusion of a cab ride as he left the bus prematurely, which he did in his interrogation notes from the Nov. 23rd morning session, and the second one as described, in the document of Dec. 4th below, that Oswald not just changed his shirt, but all his clothing. Which he did not, he did not change his T-shirt! Which is a strange thing, change your shirt but not the T-shirt after having worked in it that morning.
Will Fritz FBI Report by Vincent Drain. Click to enlarge.
Lee Oswald’s bus and cab ride can be doubted for several reasons. Ed Ledoux initiated a great thread about this at Reopen Kennedy Case Forums . I added various pieces of evidence to this thread and it is more than likely that this escape from the T.S.B.D. did not happen at all.
Roger Craig noticed someone looking like Oswald coming down the hill in front of the T.S.B.D. and getting into a Nash Rambler at about 12:42. Craig ID-ed Oswald as the man inside Fritz’s office later that afternoon. All this was reported in the Dallas Times Herald on the morning of the 23rd.
The bus ticket was only found on Oswald when he was frisked again just before his first line-up. Why would Oswald take this transfer with him while going into the Texas Theatre? Bus driver McWaters, co-passenger Julia Bledsoe and cab driver William Whaley can be doubted to a high degree speaking the truth.
Oswald’s shirt is photographed in great detail for the Shaneyfelt exhibition. Named after Lynda L. Shaneyfelt who is a special agent for the FBI in the laboratory. I am showing two of the photographs that are cropped on to the shirt. Compare the pix and see that this is not Lee Oswald. These and the others can be seen at the Mary Ferrell website (pgs 467-470).
Oswald’s shirt for the Shaneyfelt exhibition. Source: Mary Ferrell. Click pic to enlarge.
Oct
17
Almost 4 years ago, March 2015 to be precise, Carmine Savastano had a go at trying to bring Prayer Man down on his blog named after his book Two Princes and a King. Neither me or any other ROKCer was aware of this post. The article was updated last in Dec 2017.
Carmine departed from ROKC shortly before he wrote this, or was kicked off the forum, whoever you wish to believe. The core members had enough of his constant arguing about evidence. I was not really there when all this happened, I did not seriously partake until Jan. 2015 myself.
Now having read Savastano’s blog post just now I can honestly say that his work or better yet his understanding of Prayer Man is not very good, as a matter of fact I rate it as high as Doyle’s comprehension of the case. The difference is that whenever Doyle is in a tight spot he uses Harvey and Lee to get himself out of it. How convenient it is to use Oswald’s ‘double’ when it becomes impossible to clear yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself. But that is a different story. Let’s stick with the subject matter which is this blog post by him.
I will quote some from the article written by Carmine Savastano and write my comments down below in bold. Just wish to add that this is by no means a personal attack, it is a rebuttal to some of the arguments that are not only used by him, but by others as well who seem to lack to see the big picture and only use some of the evidence that is around.
1/The “Prayer Man” is similar to many other supposed “breakthroughs” coined by various people in the time since President Kennedy’s death. These include the Doorway Man, the Badge Man, the Black Dog Man, the Red Bandana Man, and the Black Hole Man, among many others.
I do not even know of the last two individuals, but to compare Prayer Man with Badge Man and Doorway Man is already a huge mistake.
Doorway Man was already cleared up the same evening, as the F.B.I. went to Billy Lovelady and he picked himself out from the table sized enlargement of the Altgens 6 Photograph. And Badge Man is not supported by anything but a colouring in, you could colour in a a pink elephant and try and make people believe that this is what is standing behind the picket fence. Looking at a very large b&w scan of the Moorman Polaroid does not show anything of a human outline at all.
Prayer Man is supported by evidence, be it circumstantial, but it is not something that should be disregarded. All this can be found in the interrogations reports and testimonies from Will Fritz, Jim Hosty and Harry Dean Holmes. Something Savastano doesn’t even touch nor makes mention of.
2/No witness testimony in the immediate area supports Oswald’s presence and not a single witness identifies him in the area during the shots.
Almost correct (Carolyn Arnold’s statement), but what Savastano omits from his writings is:
The primary statements by Shelley and Lovelady i/e do not contain a word about Oswald at all, as they were taken before Oswald was taken in. Once they witnessed Oswald’s arrival at City Hall, he was brought in as a cop killer, not as the shooter of J.F.K. Now who in their right mind would associate themselves with a cop killer?
Nor did anyone mention the negro on the bottom of the steps, Carl Edward Jones or Joe Molina who stood next to Shelley and above Otis Williams. Only one person mentioned Joe Molina, and that was Victoria Adams, and that was after her descent from the 4th floor and being directed back to the T.S.B.D. by a police man.
At the same time not one witness standing on those steps during the shooting says who that Caucasian male actually is. That is troubling no?
And why should they, in those days anyone of non Caucasian build in Tx. was expected to shut up and not volunteer information (Carl Jones, Roy Lewis and Joe Molina).
The women? Same!
Frazier? He was 19 and got the scare of his life by being shoved a statement, for being a co-conspirator, in front of him to sign by ‘old reliable’ Will Fritz.
Lovelady? Got bailed out by Ochus Campbell (the vice-president of the T.S.B.D.) for a weapons charge he was going to be re-arrested for.
Shelley? Oswald’s foreman, why should he side with a commie sympathiser? A cop killer to boot. No thank you……
Plus why should they state were Oswald was at that time, they barely knew him and he was dead by the time quite a few of the T.S.B.D. workers were interviewed, and who would want the weight of local and national law enforcement agencies on their back for a dead commie sympathiser who had also killed a cop!
3/ This person could be from a number of businesses in the vicinity, a passerby, a tourist, any number of people besides Lee Harvey Oswald.
This is about the biggest mistake Savastano can make, not only by disregarding this person as anyone but Oswald and also avoiding using his common sense, but also for the fact that it is no stranger either as was documented in March of 1964, as per CE 1381. If you want evidence Carmine, the stranger scenario is killed off with that document.
4/ While a conspiracy is eminently feasible and supported by substantial evidence, that does not justify the “Prayer Man” claim.
A very strange claim to make, especially when Savastano fails to submit such evidence himself, pot kettle…..
5/ Additional feasibly contending evidence includes the verbal statement of Lee Harvey Oswald himself.Some suggest we cannot trust any of the evidence, which is ridiculous, for how else can we prove anything? If most evidence available indicates something, it is more than likely to have occurred. Consider the amount of work and people required to suppress this idea. It would be a large undertaking of little value, since the matter still proves nothing of substance. It is not a smoking gun in my view, but smoke and mirrors.
Here Savastano makes another whopper of a faux pas. Not only does he ascribe to some of Oswald’s public statements in a video by Len Osanic, which are not timed in any way btw, but will be by me soon enough in my next paper “Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations”.
But he also produces a very incomplete body of work. What Carmine should have done for starters is introduce the statements made by Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout and Holmes and also their notes and testimony as to Oswald’s whereabouts and more importantly about he destruction of Oswald’s alibi. Something I did in my first paper “Anatomy of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter” From thereon he could have concluded that the lunch room encounter was an utter fake event and from thereon investigate where Oswald actually was during that period, of shooting J.F.K.
Aug
27
Alfred D. Hodge was a gun store owner and also owned a bar next door to that store and was called late in the evening by Will Fritz to come down to City Hall on the 3rd floor to his office to have a look at the Carcano rifle and the pistol supposedly both owned by Oswald.
The other thing that may be of interest to others is Hodge’s elevator journey with two detectives and Jack Ruby, but I am not going further into this. Read more about this HERE.
What got my interest was this passage from Hodge’s W.C. testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was in Captain Fritz’ office when you went in first?
Mr. HODGE. Well—
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald there?
Mr. HODGE. I didn’t see Oswald. I have never seen him except on TV, but Captain Fritz has one office I don’t know which office is his, but the one on the left has a glass window in it, and when I went in this hallway, out in the hallway where all the TV cameras was, there was another hallway, and Captain Fritz waved at me–he seen me through this glass and there was several people in there with him, and I went on in a little office not quite as big as this and sat down.
But in his HSCA testimony (thanks to Malcolm Blunt) he describes three (!) sightings, in a very short period, of Oswald being interrogated by Fritz on his own.
Fritz on his own? Was that not the thing, that Fritz couldn’t do this as various F.B.I., Secret Service, A.T.F. and other law enforcement agents were constantly present while Oswald was being interrogated. Quite a few other D.P.D. personnel made mention of the fact that Fritz was hindered by this and could not get Oswald to confess. Personally I doubt he would have ever ‘cracked’ Oswald. But this HSCA statement smells……
