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Marrion Baker

The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

 

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.

 

Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.

A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.

By: Bart Kamp.

  • The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
  • Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
  • Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly in different locations. Pages 24-25.
  • Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
  • In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
  • Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
  • Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
  • Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
  • In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states they saw no one there” Page 46.
  • Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
  • Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up as is stated. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
  • Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
  • Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
  • Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
  • Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
  • Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
  • Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
  • Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
  • While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
  • Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
  • Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
  • The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
  • The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
  • During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
  • The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
  • Mrs Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
  • Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
  • Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
  • Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
  • The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B.D. much later.  Pages 112-113.
  • Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
  • Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
  • The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press on Nov 23rd is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
  • Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
  • Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. In a new found document, a draft document by James Hosty, states that Oswald had a coke for his lunch and then went outside the watch the P. parade.  Pages 136-146.
  • The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening outside and inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.

 

COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.

Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter V5 March 2019

Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter V5 March 2019.

 

It has been a year since my last update and in that year’s time I have been  handed a few key pieces of evidence that I have added to the first paper. I have added, edited and deleted text and some documents and a video.

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.

You can read and download the paper HERE.

MWN Episode 078 – Bart Kamp on Prayer Man, Oswald, & the TSBD

About 6 weeks ago I was approached by S.T. Patrick of Midnight Writer News to do an interview for his show after a few weeks we finally managed to do this. Listening back to it one month after I  did it I have to say I did not do too bad. I am very critical of myself when I do these things, and the good thing is that after listening to 50 mins of it I haven’t turned it off yet!

I am talking about the research done and of course, the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, T.S.B.D., Dallas P.D. and Prayer Man all pass the avenue during this interview.

A thoroughly enjoyable experience.

Thank you S.T. Patrick.

Go HERE to hear the interview and read up about it on the Midnight Writer News Website.

During the interview I mistakenly refer to me as having received the JFK Lancer Pioneer Award, which is wrong it was the New Frontier Award actually. Apologies for the mix-up.

The Death of Richard Gilbride’s Deluded Fantasies

The Death of Richard Gilbride’s Deluded Fantasies.

 

Richard Gilbride used to be a co-administrator at ROKC. He left the forum not just for his opposing and his dated views with regards the second floor room encounter, but he also behaved in a rather irritant and alienating manner, thinking his admin/mod status could speak for all the others of the ROKC forum.

In 2014 Richard Gilbride managed to post a few things while being at ROKC that obviously rubbed everyone else up the wrong way by moving the goalposts and also restating inexact facts and resort to made-up fairy tales. And of course like ROKC’s biggest ‘fan’ Brian Doyle he has been isolating himself further and further. A few samples…..

“The lunacy in me is in taking on the cult, the true believers, those who don’t think the lunchroom incident ever happened. Because those true believers are the true lunatics, who can’t accept concrete evidence that their hypothesis is incorrect, even with that evidence is dropped at their feet and thoroughly explained to them”  HERE

and  I find the contentions of those who say the lunchroom event didn’t happen an insult to my intelligence. What I am insulting is their reasoning power, regarding this particular facet of November 22nd- because as far as this incident goes, they have taken leave of their senses. “They” meaning Sean Murphy, Greg Parker, Lee Farley, and those who actively promote this school of thought. What they promulgate is an insult to my better judgement, and many other peoples’ better judgement. It should be an insult to their better judgement.  HERE

Almost four years later nothing has changed. You will see while reading on.

Since leaving ROKC in 2014 he has had a huge chip on his shoulder about ROKC research. Once in a blue moon he starts to appear on a forum and spews his gal, which does not hold any ground whatsoever. It only appears in Gilbride’s mind. Brian Doyle and his Prayer Woman beliefs fall in the exact same category, the category of being deluded and in deep denial only believing their own ‘truth’.

A year ago Richard Gilbride was still a member at the Education forum, but the disgusting post below got him his membership revoked, like the troll Brian Doyle who posted so much drivel he became the laughing stock of the JFK Research Community. Leaving Gilbride only the half decent Deep Politics Forum to vent. I don’t count the JFK Assassination forum run by disinfo clown Duncan MacRae as a proper forum. One has to ask themselves why these deluded individuals keep at this while at the same time their memberships are being revoked. It certainly doesn’t speak well for their argumentation overall, but in this case why don’t we let his ‘writings’ speak for himself and you the readers/researchers can make up their own mind.

No matter how strong the evidence is, it will be denied purely due to the fact that it comes from us at ROKC. I have very little time for flat earthers, climate change and holocaust deniers and these two people are from the same pack. Doyle and Gilbride are also technically inept to such an extend that mouthing off without providing any proof is their only weapon. Oh we at ROKC mouth off big time, but that is after presenting the proof in abundance after which we are  being lied to by these fantasists. Then of course we will address your shit.

Gilbride first two essays on the second floor lunch room encounter are filled to the brim with unsupported innuendo, made-up ‘evidence and have been demolished by various researchers (including yours truly). In 2014 at ROKC and later at the Education Forum in 2015/2016. And with his third ‘essay’ (90 pages too long) it is even worse. About half of it is used to attack me and my work and the other half is again just opinionated and unsubstantiated drivel which is nothing but a repeat from his dreadful fairy tale ‘research’ that is more than 4 years old. And only this once he gets the special treatment (a blog post) from me. I cannot be bothered otherwise since his crap does not deserve anyone’s attention.

When he made a forum post entitled “Death Of A Lunch Room Hoax” at the Deep Politics Forum earlier in Feb.,  he got rebutted by Jim DiEugenio, David Josephs and Alan Ford with great ease already. But why stop there……I want my slice of the cake as well. So here we go.

Good Stuff.

It seems that I made some typos regarding the dates of the SS report(s) concerning Mrs Robert Reid. I also forgot to add one page of these reports to my paper which resulted in me erroneously claiming she made no mention of the coke in that statement. That was wrong and I have corrected that. One thing that needs to be added is that the Secret Service Reports from early Dec. 1963 are to be treated with the utmost suspicion, some of the T.S.B.D. worker’s testimonies in those reports were contradicting their very first statements to the D.P.D. and the F.B.I.

I also erroneously ascribed a radio message to Jesse Curry whereas that should have been Bill Decker instead. I corrected that as well.

These correction will be in the V.4 update of Anatomy Of The Second Lunch Room Encounter out early March.

And that is it mistake-wise from all the 90 pages, now then y’all best strap in as the person who has never before attempted to look and research all the evidence before and relied way too much on his own innuendo for three essays on the same subject matter is about to get a serious kicking. Of course he himself will deny this up to the hilt.

Bad stuff.

The introduction by itself is a very weak start, instead of sticking to the point he drifts off already and drags in historical quotes which have no bearing on this case whatsoever. Gilbride tries to show of his intellect, not that it works as you will see further on where he makes some really dumb mistakes which are only made because of his blindness created by his hatred for ROKC and my work.  These first few pages are pure filler. Anyone can bang together a few historic quotes and massage the whole thing together. Gilbride should have included a few of these, it would have been more fitting to his work overall.

Then we arrive at Prayer Man, Gilbride feels the need to drag this part of the enigma into this document for a large part spread all over it. I myself make brief mention of it in the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter paper I made. In this chapter it is already going horribly wrong, nothing new as the majority of this has been already posted more than two to four years ago at the Education Forum and back then it was torn to bits, not just by me but pretty much any member there in that thread. Gilbride’s so called photogrammetry calculations amount to junk science and like Brian Doyle he talks the talk trying to make everyone believe that they are the experts who know how to do this, but the reality is quite the opposite, drawing a few lines on a 2d photograph amounts to bugger all, a small child can do this.

He provides no info as to what camera/lens was used by both camera men (Darnell and Wiegman), there is no way to determine the exact spot of both camera men and their distance to the front steps of the TSBD, one can only guess. It is flawed from the word get go, but this was already relayed to him two years ago on the Education Forum, but Gilbride isn’t listening let alone researching just rehashing the same old fairy tale.

Nor does anyone know  whether Prayer Man stood on the top of the landing or one step down. I speculate he is one step down due to his stance, and the way the steps go wider. And also due to the size of Shelley/Frazier on the landing and Lovelady who stood on a lower step. There is no way of ascertaining by sight whether Prayer Man stood on the landing or one step down from either film. The height analysis is pure conjecture, there is zero and I repeat zero evidence to back up Doyle’s and Gilbride ‘s claims. His calculations are sucked out of his thumb and presented as gospel.

Gilbride states that Lovelady stood on the top step. If there is one thing abundantly clear in Wiegman it is that Lovelady is standing one step lower below Shelley and Frazier and is leaning against the railing. This cannot be done while standing on the top step. Take a look at the photographs below. Now pretend to stand on the landing and imagine leaning against that railing….bit difficult to do that no? Also look how close he is to Williams who stood one or even two steps down. No way could he have stood that close to him if he were standing on the landing. And also consider that Lovelady stood behind Carl Jones as you can see in the Hughes film and as the motorcade made its way down Elm he moved slightly to the right and up the steps. Not the landing where Shelley, Frazier, Sanders and Stanton were already standing. Lovelady had a curious mind and when the shots rang out he left those steps immediately with Shelley. Lovelady can be seen lowering on the steps in Wiegman as well.

Doyle tried to lie himself out of it and it never worked, and it doesn’t work this time for Gilbride either. Major fail on Gilbride’s part of repeating this debunked rubbish.

Click to enlarge

 

On Page 7 it gets “better”, Gilbride brings in the pix used by Brian Doyle for his Prayer Woman malarky. The buttons argument was debunked by me more than a year ago. These are not buttons they are artefacts from a transfer from tape to digital, as simple as that. I wrote two articles nailing Doyle and his lies to the cross. Gilbride pretends like his nose is bleeding and present this horse shit afresh…..you’d think he would be joking but he isn’t.

The Death Of Prayer Woman Part 1. and The Death Of Prayer Woman Part 2 deal with this BS in good detail. In case you were wondering where his latest essay’s title comes from, look no further.

In the very first article it was shown that Craig Lamson and Duncan MacRae faked the detail of the Darnell image which shows Prayer Man/Lee Oswald. Gilbride is using this image and on the same page of that article is also a photograph which shows the “buttons”, those buttons which appear all over the actual image. These buttons in correlation with the actual size of the image would be massive in real life. David Josephs brings a coherent argument forward at the Education Forum about this.

Here let me show you again in a very simple way and you can see they are all over the image. Buttons = fairy tale. Prayer Woman died a long time ago already. But like McAdams would do many years ago, even when debunked they still have a go at presenting this again at a later date. This is pure trolling.

Neither Doyle, MacRae and Gilbride possess any photography skills let alone be able to edit/manipulate/enhance/post the images. Recently Gilbride, already being a member at DPF for quite some time, had to ask the DPF members to show him how to post pix at that forum.  Gilbride’s photo analytical qualities come into question again later on.

In short the entire hooey from pages 3-9 is to be avoided purely for the bad research being done and repeating already debunked stories. if you do not think I make a point then just have a look at the replies Jim DiEugenio and David Joseph gave to Richard Gilbride with regards this BS. Another major fail on Gilbride’s account for adopting the sheer garbage produced by Brian Doyle, Duncan MacRae and Craig Lamson. When I asked Lamson, Doyle and MacRae for the EXIF data, and not meta data Doyle, they refused to pass it on as it would have shown heavy manipulation from their part. Instead the cowardly fakers ran away.

Then he asserts running woman is Gloria Calvery, there is absolutely nothing to support this, not even BWF’s statement. Since he brings this in connection with Shelley and Lovelady who had already departed. Shelley and Lovelady lied about their stay on the steps for 3-4 minutes during their WC testimony. It would have invalidated the W.C. fairy tale of  2nd floor lunch room encounter and Oswald’s departure there and then, as everyone would have seen Oswald leaving the TSBD. It is impossible that this happened. Calvery to this day has not been IDed in Dealey Plaza on that day no matter how hard people try. In Shelley’s first statement, before Oswald was marched in or let us even assume he gave that statement during it. He stated that he saw Gloria Calvery after he had left the steps. There is no interaction between Shelley and Lovelady and running woman at all.  It is pure guesswork. But it would have been a lot better if both these clowns actually paid attention to the very little info that is available of Gloria Calvery. In CE1381 she states. “After President Kennedy was shot, I returned to my office. I stayed there a short time then returned to the front entrance of the building. I remained there only two or three minutes and then came back to my office. I left my office for the day at about 1:30 PM and went home.” There is absolutely nothing about her running back, she went inside and up to her office and then came back down.

The drab is continued with Harry Dean Holmes’ affidavit and WC testimony, if anyone gave the game away on Oswald’s alibi it was H.D.H., he was not part of the boys club inside the DPD and surely did not get the memo to keep his mouth shut and not to volunteer any info. Holmes himself is also questionable for the fact that not one person could take responsibility handing the rifle to Oswald, as it supposedly had come through his office. The rifle that never existed in Oswald’s inventory, but that is a whole different story btw.

Gilbride refers to a 4 page memo from Dec 17th, which was his report from Nov. 24th. What Gilbride does not realise is that there is a 8 pager as well.  My position on Holmes’ testimony is quite clear in my paper, Gilbride thinks different due to his interpretation, which no one else but another research apologist by the name of Larry R. Trotter agrees with. Alan Ford demolishes that interpretation as well at DPF. Click and see for yourself. But why do I not paste part of Holmes’ WC testimony below.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr.HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

As simple as that Gilbride’s wishful fairy tales are torn up again. So the first 12 pages are completely worthless and why should we stop there. On page 13 the THE WILL-CALL COUNTER BUMP chapter is put forward. Since I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that both Truly and Baker never went in as fast as they claimed this chapter can also be dismissed. The 13 points of concurrence are also utterly worthless, David Josephs takes care of this already (post #2), no need for me to add anything.  So that is 15 pages that can be skipped due to the terrible work put forward by Richard Gilbride.

And it is getting worse, let me quote from page 19.

“Yet no other document even loosely correlates the existence of a “3rd or 4th floor” man, and do not wait up nights hoping that something supportive will turn up among the documents-yet-to-be-released. The chances are nil. “3rd or 4th floor” man has been utterly useless as a tool to help decipher what went on, just after the assassination, inside the Texas School Book Depository. All we can infer is- if he ever existed at all- he vanished into thin air. This empty result adds nothing contributory to the crime scene investigation, certainly nothing better than what the commonly-held assertion gives us- that Baker was simply confused about the TSBD floor layout when he composed his affidavit.” 

Ah yes Baker was just so confused, he went up two short flights of stairs and was already confused about what floor he was on, sure…… Had Baker thought that the shipping dept. on the first floor was the ground floor then he would have mistaken the 2nd floor for the 1st and not 3rd or 4th, but Gilbride wants everyone to believe that Baker’s first affidavit has no real meaning yet it is paramount in showing that there was no second floor lunch room encounter at all. That document by itself is a major cliff hanger. Gilbride keeps pushing this terrible scenario again and again, and this was also debunked at the Education forum as utter hogwash.

On page 21 he cannot believe the amount of people that are supposedly involved with this encounter lie, what Gilbride omits is that

1/ there is no mention of a second floor encounter on the 22nd, the first public outing is at around lunch time on the 23rd (almost 24 hrs after Oswald’s arrest) and

2/ that quite a few statements are taken on the 24th after Oswald has been given a set of wings…….. Gilbride thinks that by not presenting the evidence in the right context and dragging in philosophy makes his argument stand tall, the opposite is more true.

So far up to this point of this ‘essay’ everything mentioned can be skipped, it offers very little or no value at all, it solely contains Richard Gilbride’s personal innuendo.

The Stroud Document is also equally dismissed with again Gilbride’s apologising for how Adams and Styles could not have seen Baker and Truly while coming down swiftly wearing high heels on creaky wooden stairs. Truly allegedly heard Baker talking while the door was closed, but neither of them were hearing Adams and Styles clacking with their heels and making their way down those stairs. Dorothy Garner heard them descending while out of sight to her. An absolute stinker of an excuse. The ladies were already outside before Baker and Truly even attempted to go in and up. As simple as that. Gilbride ought to he ashamed producing this type of dross.

The arrows showing the alleged route on the 1st floor diagram are wrong, as per testimony they went diagonally through the shipping dept.

On page 25 Gilbride claims “Baker first caught a glimpse of Oswald somewhere between 50-60 seconds after the head shots.” Oh really? And the evidence for that is where exactly? Ah yes only in Gilbride’s head……that glimpse that got no mention until a few days before his W.C. testimony…. The timing aspect was a mess from day one, but Richard Gilbride and his fairy tales make matters a lot worse.

On the same page he claims “The November 27th Secret Service re-enactment film, at the 23 ½ minute mark, shows it closing unaided in only 1.8 seconds.”

See for yourself that this is rubbish, the film below (starts at the point of opening the door) and Barry Ernest’s testing in 1968 (3 seconds) shows it took longer that 1.8 seconds. Baker who only followed him by a few feet managed to open the door and have it closed in a few seconds and stop Oswald while Truly was just a few feet ahead and was on the 2nd or 3rd step up the stairs towards the 3rd floor. Pull the other one sunshine!

Gilbride again wants to apologise for the Baker and Truly encounter which never happened in the first place.

 

On page 26 Gilbride shows the Gary Murr drawing I put forward with my paper (he borrows a lot of graphics from my piece without properly crediting anyone!) and names it the vestibule.

Vestibule: a passage, hall, or antechamber between the outer door and the interior parts of a house or building.

On that same page he slanders Sean Murphy again without providing any linkage to it. Insiders know that Murphy got in contact with Sandra Styles and got some contradictory statements compared to what Barry Ernest presented in his book The Girl On The Stairs. There was some debate about this, but nothing like Gilbride dares to present, he is economical with the truth again. Gilbride’s hatred for Sean Murphy is more than evident. He acts like a sore loser who was outgunned and above all outclassed years ago.

Pages 27-30 are about the filmed interviews, the B&W ones for CBS and the biggest turd known to mankind The Trial Of LHO, held in London during the 70’s. Defence council Spence looks so weak with his questioning it is utterly laughable. The witnesses have all been instructed and coached by Vince Bugliosi (another filthy denier….) what to say. A fab example is Harold Norman’s testimony, just count the times how often he glances towards Bugliosi when questioning becomes a tad tough. With the CBS interviews it isn’t much better. Jim DiEugenio and Jerry Policoff wrote excellent articles on how CBS conducted itself with these interviews and the JFK Assassination overall.

So that is 30 pages without anything of real value, my suggestion: skip the lot!

Pages 31-40 are about Baker’s first statement, his FBI statement from Sept. 1964 and so on.

Again Gilbride makes a few serious mistakes.

1/ If we are to believe that Baker and Truly raced up those stairs then how comes there were several people inside the lobby? We know that Roy Edward Lewis was inside the vestibule and that Otis Williams had left the steps to go inside up too the 4th floor (yup using those same wooden stairs…). Other than that everyone was still outside. That by itself already indicates a much later arrival than has been presented.

2/ Then Richard Gilbride dismisses all newspaper reports for being brought up by overexcited newspaper reporters hungry for details, and even remembered incorrectly by the protagonists. This is how he classes journalism. You think that is a bad case of generalising then wait a little for another nugget further down.

3/ Gilbride digs into Baker’s first statement while padding himself on the back for doing, superfluous, research while complaining the Murphyites don’t do this, first of all the derogatory word has no impact and he ought to know that this started decades before Sean Murphy got involved and I personally have taken it much much further than any forum poster. Of course we not do superfluous research. It’s a complete waste of time and proves nothing nor does it debunk anything what has already been questioned before. (pages 31/39).

Then we finally reach the real juice: “Anatomy Of A Cherry Picker” and with that he means me and my paper. Thank you Richard, I looked through all the available evidence.  Something he failed to do with his two earlier essays which resembled Swiss cheese. One could pick holes in these two bodies of work and conclude that they were rightfully ignored by the overwhelming majority of the JFK research community. for all these years. And only after my paper was released and awarded  by Lancer and DPUK , combined with that huge chip on his shoulder did he get his finger out and produced this (s)hit piece.

Before I utterly destroy this typed up excrement on the second half of his ‘essay’ I should mention that it was my sole intention to collect everything available about this so called encounter to present a bigger picture. One thing that stood out were the huge amount of contradictions in statements, testimonies and newspaper reports. Which requires a lot more than your mundane explanation Richard!

He starts of with that I failed to address my counter-arguments against the lunchroom hoax hypothesis at the Education Forum, this is a lie, his dated beliefs were argued against at The Education Forum two years back. As a matter of fact his points were nullified by not just me, but also others. I know I am repeating myself……

See this thread at The Education Forum.  Greg Parker on page 8 of that thread summed it up nicely then, and it is even more than applicable now.

“Fact: Baker wrote 3rd or 4th floor. Your opinion is that he was confused

Fact: Baker described a 165 pound 30 year old wearing a light tan jacket. Your opinion is that he was mistaken

Fact: Oswald allegedly claimed to buy one coke: your opinion is that he bought two.

Fact: Mrs. Reid stated Oswald wore a white t-shirt. Your opinion is she was mistaken

Fact: The re-enactments were done over and over again until they could make the timing work. Your opinion is that they was done over and over to “refresh” Baker’s memory

Fact: The will-call counter “bump” is a change to the original story given which was that Truly was already inside. Your opinion that it was just additional information is an opinion you’re entitled to. You are also entitled to the opinion that there is no elephant in the room.

It’s always instructive when someone whose opinions are not attracting any support of note, will start claiming that the support of other positions is merely due to sycophancy. Ouch-B.K.

As Terry (Martin-B.K.) said, people have long smelled something foul regarding the 2nd floor encounter. You are so tied up in trying to extract some sort of revenge, that you are actually falling back on Warren Commission apologist type arguments. Not bad coming from someone who believes the MJ12 garbage was what got Kennedy killed.”

Terry Martin and Ed Ledoux post excellent rebuttals and I myself have made a few posts, see for yourself and especially look at Page 16.

In this so called essay of his he writes“Kamp could not provide any substantive answers to my complaints.” Nothing more than a terrible lie, click on the link and check that page and the following ones out and see for yourself and you can conclude that Richard Gilbride is lying. When a ‘researcher’ has to resort to lying then I am more or less done communicating with them in any shape or form, I only make an exception here since there are 50 odd pages attacking me and the work I have produced.

Then Gilbride’s assumptions get the better of him and he fails in a rather spectacular fashion while addressing Truly’s deleted testimony. In the Sept 2017 release of my paper (V.3) I said that we tried to get hold of it and also wondered why the testimony was withheld, nothing else. Gilbride on the other hand scribbles down a fairy tale even Hans Christian Anderson would be jealous of. In the end this deleted testimony was nothing else than someone else reciting his testimony, there was nothing deleted about it all. For that the “blame” lies with either NARA or the WC. You will see in the V.4 update.

Then he questions why I wondered why Baker had not called the observation of a possible shooter in, which anyone with half a grain of common sense would wonder aloud since that would be proper police procedure no? Not according to Dick Gilbride……  My second question was why Baker did not seal off the building, I should have asked why did he not seal the front entrance and call others in? What cop goes inside a building with a gun man still inside on his own when several buddies are about ‘dancing’ behind the picket fence and the rail road yards. Baker was no Rambo, far from it.

We now know that Baker was standing between the TSBD and the Dal Tex building as became apparent during his WC testimony (and was eventually led to saying it was the TSBD) plus the Darnell film shows Baker veering to the right.

Then he posts two newspaper articles from Nov 24th and 25th which have no bearing since the lunch room encounter did not publicly exist until Nov 23rd around lunch time. And a ten year old child could come up with a handful more of those articles from after the 23rd repeating the fakery created by the D.P.D.

Gilbride then continues to attack every single piece concerning this case and cherry picks his way through it all, what he fails to realise (not a first…) is that I post everything that is available! Gilbride calls that a blunder and even starts stating the bloody obvious.  I post all matters whether it supports my conclusions or not, but again his anger and his blindness prevents him from seeing that massive lump of wood swinging in front of his eyes, like the first two essays this third  essay is becoming an utter joke and I wonder why I bother refuting this worthless crap and I am only halfway this shitty hit piece!

And it goes on and on in Gilbride’s minuscule world. So instead of wasting more time, I will post a few more utter rubbish remarks. I have work to do besides tearing Gilbride’s essay a new one so I am going to be a tad more selective.

Page 48. Does he realize that Sean Murphy would be acclaimed in Ireland if there was even a remote chance that his theory was true? But it’s a clunker, and he quit the research community because he can’t handle failure. Gilbride has no knowledge or evidence for this, again his grudge against Sean Murphy takes the upper hand and spite takes the upper hand.

Page 49. Gilbride is reaching big time as to Brennan’s encounter with Truly in Roy Bode’s interview and screws up so bad it had me rolling with laughter as he himself directly refutes that so called super fast entry by Baker and Truly. “The truth was that Brennan didn’t leave his wall perch until nearly 2 ½ minutes after the shooting.”  

Page 50 Truly tried to account himself in bravery and knew full well he was taking large liberties with the facts for this 16-year-old reporter. Pure fiction! Gilbride deals with these matters, as they only exist in his head and nowhere else.

Page 52 He positions Roy Lewis outside instead of behind the glass, and uses Larry Rivera’s 2016 conference for this as evidence. I suggest you check that talk out, it is so wrong and badly put together that you will not thank me for wasting your time.

Page 53 He denies that Holmes was referring to the vestibule on the first floor, again scroll up and see what Holmes’ testimony says.

 

Page 69 contains a photographic still from the Cook film and this image shows Carolyn Arnold and two other ladies, whose ID has not been established at all. They are not Reid and Adams. This wishful rubbish was posted at the Duncan MacRae disinfo forum and never shown to have any substance to it whatsoever. I know as I worked on this with Linda Giovanna Zambanini. This is good research? He also lambasts me for not using footnotes, anyone else can see the interactive links to documents/pix and videos and besides plenty of material is inserted. That I overlooked one page of an affidavit is for Gilbride to have a go at me, yet his own footnotes are rubbish to use. What layman could possible use the non interactive notes at the bottom nor is there any further reference where to go to check up on his claims. Pot…kettle….geddit?

On page 70 he fantasises (“most probably” HA) about Oswald using the corridor instead of taking the alleged route through the second floor office which supposedly happened after the fake encounter in the lunch room, you couldn’t make this crap up but Richard Gilbride just does. Gilbride further claims that “Shelley- even though he denied this- had seen Oswald leave the building via the front landing.” and refers to his own essay to this as a footnote. How corrupted is this? Very, since there is no evidence Shelley saw him leave again this is just in Gilbride’s mind. Oswald said that he spoke with Shelley and asked if he could leave since no further work was going to be done that day. Shelley denied this. Even though this happened there is nothing that points that Shelley actually saw Oswald leave via the front entrance or even stood there after the assassination, Shelley was busy assisting the law enforcement officers in the building and not standing on the front steps another mistake by Gilbride. Billy Lovelady did see him leave after Oswald was stopped at the front door and Truly had vouched for him.

It’s getting boring, I know as I have to plough through this tripe!

Again, on page 71, he brings up Holmes’ testimony and tries to twist and turn it into his favour, yet fails again.

Pages 72-74 deal with Kent Biffle and him overhearing what Truly had said and pretends that the NYHT article quoting Ochus Campbell are coming from the same source, this is nothing short of misleading, a damn lie! He produces no evidence to back this up besides his deluded dream-like scenario. A very dirty game is being played here by Gilbride and it doesn’t work. And it goes on about the other newspaper reports using the same deplorable tactic and generalising that newspaper reports overall are inaccurate and lead to Chinese whispers, if you ask me Gilbride has had a hefty dose of them himself.

Carolyn Arnold is next on pages 76-78, and Gilbride’s presumptions are dead wrong. I will let the reader decide about this since I have rewritten that chapter for the V4 of the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter paper, and he could not have read it by the time he wrote this  and it is even more detrimental to Carolyn Arnold’s statements. You will see soon for yourself.

Then we move to Oswald’s alibi at the bottom of page 78. Pay attention to the following: “He lied because he needed to protect his assignment to the 2nd-floor lunchroom. He did not want even to begin to expose the plot he had participated in. He knew full well that the 6th floor of the Depository was a key sniping position in the ambush of Kennedy. Saying he was on the ground floor at the time would buffer him from any suggestion that he was anywhere near being “upstairs in the building.”  Is there any evidence available besides Gilbride’s delusions and lies? Of course not. Utter bunk!

Gilbride asserts that Fritz took notes only when Bookhout arrived, but there is no evidence for this and on top of that the notes are not contemporary (he speaks of ‘the deceased’) and in my second paper Anatomy Of LHO’s Interrogations I bring plenty of evidence that Fritz took no notes at that time! It looks like Jim Hosty was the only one taking some notes at that interrogation. He then starts to misinterpret the notes to such an effect that I start to wonder whether Gilbride actually has studied the material carefully. Bookhout’s and Hosty’s joint report clearly states: “claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. After hearing what had happened, he said that because of all the confusion there would be no work performed that afternoon so he decided to go home.” Bookhout’s solo report after Oswald was snuffed was a complete joke and made to fix Oswald as the solo killer of the President and encountered by Baker/Truly. There are some questionable bits that they directly contradict his first joint report. I point all this out in my paper.

Then at the bottom of page 81 (almost there thank fuck) he has the audacity to say “But what Bart forgets is that Shelley returned to the landing in time to vouch to Officer Welcome Barnett that Oswald was all right, that he worked there.” This is another lie, Shelley was nowhere to be seen outside from his return from the rail road yards until leaving the TSBD at about 13:30 and seen escorting Garcia and Williams to the police car. Shelley was busy helping the law inside the building, as per his statement. And Barnett was not checking people, according to De. Chief Lumpkin it was Eric Kaminski.

Then this “essay” descends into deeper chaos by going into the bus ride, the bus ride by itself has been disproved by Ed Ledoux who has turned this fake story into mincemeat, enough already.

Page 86 contains the following whopper: “Any newspaper reader is fully aware that any article potentially contains misinformation, from the journalist or the interviewee. It is only an adjunct source for arriving at the historical truth- particularly in this instance when there are so many other sources of information available. And in this case the newspapers contained actual disinformation.” For a second I thought Gilbride meant his own writing as it is so succinctly described here, but no all newspaper reports potentially contain misinformation.”  Can this essay be any more shit?

From thereon this ”essay” descends deeper into the abyss with Richard Gilbride’s conclusions. I think I have spent enough time laying out the mistakes, the lies and the make believe scenarios by him that I cannot stomach this piece any longer.

Among all (former) ROKC staffers there is a broad consensus that the second floor lunch room encounter did not happen, but we disagree on some of the details. Merely due to lack of additional info but what Gilbride puts forward we and other people who are not members of ROKC unanimously agree that he is nothing more than a sore loser, stuck in beliefs that can only be maintained with innuendo and lies. Richard Gilbride is a bully and a fraud of which John McAdams could only be most proud of. His hit piece misses on every occasion, but a couple of mistakes for which I am thankful for as he took the time to go through it all. But he could have saved himself a lot of time writing his third essay since the whole thing could have been dealt with less than half a page of A4.

Enough already.

 

All memes by: Stan Dane.

TSBD 2nd floor drawings

Special thanks once again to Gary Murr.

If anyone feels inclined to build a 3D model then do let me see the end result :)

These are  detailed drawings made by members of the FBI Exhibits Section of various areas of the TSBD building. They were made in the first week of December, 1963, and were used in conjunction with the eventual construction of the FBI model of Dealey Plaza, TSBD, etc

These are of very nice detail and shows how short the area was from the first door to the lunch room door. So Oz was standing in the opening of the lunch room and Baker was inside with the door behind him shut, and then Truly leant in……….right.

FBI File:  62-109060-3961, Box 104A, Folder A1-1.

Black Op Radio April 2017

Thanks to Jim DiEugenio for putting me forward to do Len Osanic’s radio show Black Op Radio.

Just over an hour’s worth talking about how I started and of course the second floor lunch room encounter fugezi.

Great fun, but I was tired and a bit nervous and due to that I lost my train of thought twice.

Thanks Len and Jim!!

Listen to it HERE. This link downloads the MP3 file.

Or listen at Len’s website. Show #831

Meme by Stan Dane.

Time to make some movies about the 2nd floor paper soon.

 

2nd floor lunchroom encounter talk

This coming Saturday I am giving an informal talk at the Dealey Plaza UK meeting. It will be about the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter that never was.

Venue The Flying Horse in London. 52 Wilson St, London EC2A 2ER

Start at about 13:30

In about a week the update to my essay will be published as well, an additional 30 pages/8,000 words extra stuff.

 

Marrion Baker in Hughes

A week or so ago Robin Unger posted a Hughes GIF with Marrion baker riding alongside Cam Car 3. Seen about halfway the footage, just after the splice in the video below of which the GIF has been repeated a few times.

 

Here is a still.

Marrion Baker in the Hughes film. Click to enlarge.

 

Here is a map of Dealey Plaza which marks Baker’s location on Houston captured by Hughes.

Baker in Hughes on Dealey Plaza Robert Cutler Map.

 

The reader ought to familiarise himself with the distance from the front of the TSBD and Baker’s position on the map.

From what I can see the shooting has yet to start or has just started as Baker looks passive nor does his head change as to looking upward and seeing those pigeons. Nothing looks out of the ordinary.

Then the camera men inside the cars. They are still looking backwards towards the corner of Main and Houston where a toss of film went hilariously wrong and ‘everyone had a good laugh’. This has been confirmed by several of the car’s occupants in Richard Trask’s book Pictures Of The Pain.

Baker’s testimony regarding this matter.

Will you take up your trip from there, please?
Mr. BAKER – As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance.

Mr. BELIN – How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know?
Mr. BAKER – I would say–it wasn’t very fast. I almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly.
Mr. DULLES – That is turning from Main into Houston?
Mr. BAKER – That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN – You turned-do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?
Mr. BAKER – I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because you can’t hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.
Mr. BELIN – From what direction was the wind coming When it hit you?
Mr. BAKER – Due north.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?
Mr. BAKER – AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did?
Mr. BAKER – As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don’t know when these shots started coming off, I just–it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up—
Mr. DULLES – I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down Houston.
Mr. BELIN – Sir, if you can–I plan to get that actual chart in a minute. If we could—-
Mr. DULLES – I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there.
Mr. BAKER – This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I got somewhere about right here—-
Mr. DULLES – That is halfway down the first block.
Mr. BELIN – No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?
Mr. DULLES – Certainly.
Mr. BELIN – Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN – And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.
Mr. BELIN – And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street?
Mr. BAKER – We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston.
Mr. DULLES – Thank you.
Mr. BELIN – Does that answer your question?
Mr. DULLES – That answers my question entirely.
Mr. BELIN – In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?
Mr. BAKER – It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.
Mr. BELIN – What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?
Mr. BAKER – It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.
Mr. BELIN – All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER – Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN – What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER – It would be this Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN – That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BAKER – That would be the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN – All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?
Mr. BAKER – On the northeast corner.
Mr. BELIN – All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.
Mr. BELIN – From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?
Mr. BAKER – I wasn’t sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN – Then what did you see or do?
Mr. BAKER – Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn’t see around this bend.
Mr. BELIN – Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you heard any more shots?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; I heard–now before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.

And later.

Mr. BELIN – All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?
Mr. BAKER – Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.
Mr. BELIN – What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much?
Mr. BAKER – From 180 to 200 feet.
Mr. BELIN – That is where you parked the motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER – Yes.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.
With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a “B” on it, if you would.
Mr. BAKER – Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to “B” and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN – You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was 10 feet, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter “B” to this stoplight.
Mr. BAKER – Talking about this one here?
Mr. BELIN – The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. The arrow with the letter “B” points to the stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN – And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN – We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN – And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN – Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway?
Mr. BAKER – Approximately 45 feet.
Mr. BELIN – This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN – After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir. As I parked here
Mr. BELIN – You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have marked with “B.”
Mr. BAKER – And I was looking westward which would be in this direction.
Mr. BELIN – By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN – Toward the triple underpass.
Representative BOGGS -Where is the underpass?
Mr. BAKER – The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and there is a triple overpass.
Representative BOGGS -Right.
Mr. BAKER – At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn’t know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.
Mr. BELIN – Did you notice anything else?
Mr. BAKER – Except there was a woman standing–well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, “Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man.”
Mr. BELIN – All right.
Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER – That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES – Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it.
Mr. BELIN – I am trying to see down here.
Mr. DULLES – I just wanted to get a general idea.
Mr. BELIN – On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn’t show but it basically would be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here.
Mr. DULLES – As far as that?
Mr. BELIN – Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that will better describe it.
Mr. DULLES – All right.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building?
Mr. BAKER – No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. BELIN – All right.
Then what did you do after surveying the situation?
Mr. BAKER – I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.
Mr. BELIN – By this building, you are referring to what?
Mr. BAKER – The Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN – Go on.
Representative BOGGS -You were parked right in front of the Building?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.
Representative BOGGS -Right.

Now suspicious or not regarding Baker measuring out with Belin his distance after he heard the first shot.

What can be derived from this part of the episode is that from a distance p.o.v. there is not much to play with regarding observing pigeons coming over/of the roof of the TSBD and then the so called revving up to park the bike just on Elm near the side walk.