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Jim Leavelle DPD

Important to Hold That Man by Jerry D. Rose May 1986

Important to Hold That Man by Jerry D. Rose May 1986

 

Once in a blue moon you come across a great article. From The Third Decade; a magazine that has published some of the finest articles in JFK Assassination research. This article below by publisher Jerry D. Rose is no exception. And the reason for me to bring this up is because it falls nicely inside my remit but it is also a great way to compare it with my own work. And Rose does a terrific job. The parts where Truly had stated to the WC he had not seen Oswald after the assassination which of course makes no sense when the second floor lunch room encounter allegedly happened within 90 seconds after the shots had been fired. Rose’s remarks following up on Bill Shelley stating to Roy Truly that he did not see Lee Oswald are simply priceless.

Fritz’s movements and actions from the T.S.B.D. and to the D.P.D. are thoroughly questioned, but his pit stop at Bill Decker’s office is sadly missing from those paragraphs. All this makes Will Fritz look even more suspicious

Oswald being paraded past his fellow employees had more of an effect than Rose describes. He notes discrepancies from a procedural p.o.v. But add on that those fellow employees were told that Oswald had killed a cop at that time which of course meant that these people were distancing themselves from Oswald as much as they possibly could.

A perfect example of someone being too close is Buell Frazier who got it in the neck from early evening onwards from the D.P.D. that day. Joe Molina a worthy second.

The yellow marker (grey on these pages) and pen annotations are from Harry Livingstone whose archive I have been digitising this past year and a bit.

Do read!

Click to enlarge.

Click to enlarge.

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The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

 

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.

 

Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.

A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.

By: Bart Kamp.

  • The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
  • Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
  • Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly in different locations. Pages 24-25.
  • Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
  • In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
  • Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
  • Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
  • Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
  • In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states they saw no one there” Page 46.
  • Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
  • Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up as is stated. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
  • Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
  • Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
  • Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
  • Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
  • Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
  • Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
  • Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
  • While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
  • Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
  • Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
  • The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
  • The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
  • During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
  • The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
  • Mrs Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
  • Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
  • Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
  • Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
  • The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B.D. much later.  Pages 112-113.
  • Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
  • Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
  • The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press on Nov 23rd is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
  • Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
  • Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. In a new found document, a draft document by James Hosty, states that Oswald had a coke for his lunch and then went outside the watch the P. parade.  Pages 136-146.
  • The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening outside and inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.

 

COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.

Tippit

Dealey Plaza UK had one of its meets at The Flying Horse again, and we had a jolly good time beers flowed and the subject was Tippit.

Funny how things go. Joseph McBride’s book Into The Nightmare is the best book on this subject and I read it 3-4 years ago, but what I had forgotten about is that McBride had interviewed Jim Leavelle and what he said is most interesting and naturally I will add these quotes to the 2nd paper Anatomy Of Oswald’s Interrogations. Leavelle is sinking deeper and deeper if you read what is below and in my paper.

When asked by McBride why Oswald was not arraigned for the killing of J.F.K. Leavelle replied:

“Now the thing was, the Captain (Will Fritz, the Head of Homicide, who was running the interrogation of Oswald) asked me if I had enough to make a case on him for the Tippit killing. And I said, ”Oh yeah. I got plenty on that.” I had him identified by about three or four people. And so Cap said, “Well go ahead and make a tight case on him in case we have trouble making this one on the presidential shooting.” “So that was one reason he was arraigned early on the Tippit shooting. But I was thinking that we also arraigned him somewhere down the line on the shooting of the president. But I wouldn’t swear to that offhand.”  (P.235/236).

When asked how his department had reacted to the shooting of the president Leavelle said: “As the old saying goes back then, “it was no different than a South Dallas nigger killin’” When you get right down to it – because it was just another murder inside the city lines of Dallas that we could handle. It was just another murder to me. And I have handled hundreds of ‘em. So it wasn’t no big deal.” (P 240).

 

A chat with Ian Griggs


Yesterday I met up with Ian Griggs, author of No Case To Answer.

He has been researching this case for decades and he has visited Dallas many many times (he has lost count). A former police officer himself he has dug into the Dallas Police Department more than anyone else. In the DPD section I show a brief summary of how the DPD was organised. This is all thanks to him and his  tenacious efforts in compiling this.

Obviously we discussed mostly Dallas Police related matters, and we went down his memory lane while he showed me around in his house of which one room was a mini museum with his collection, of which I post a few shots down below. I hope to do a proper interview in the near future.

Ian has interviewed quite a few people such as Beverly Oliver, James Tague, Jim Leavelle, Warren Caster to name a few, but his specialty lies with the DPD, of which he is writing another book which hopefully will be published later this year.

Some of our discussions:

  • After his article on Postal Inspector Harry Dean Holmes called The Four Faces Of Harry Dean Holmes, he was contacted by family members of Holmes and they were less than pleased with his assessment. Well they better not look at my page then ;)
  • He has been acquainted with Marina Oswald-Porter on a talk panel and she even bought him a massive plaque  of JFK. He said she asked him if he wanted some thing from an antique shop to which he replied your country is not old enough to have an antiques shop (which is a joke in case you missed it, although it has some truth to it). She went into the shop and bought it for him for about $ 25.00. Some researchers’burned’ Marina Porter, not much later and now she will not talk to anyone, which is a real shame as I and a few other scholars would love to talk to her.

JFK Plaque gifted by Marina Oswald-Porter to Ian Griggs. Pic: Barto.

  • He has tried to contact Harry Olson’s former missus Kay Coleman a few years back, but was warned not to pursue this any further. Kay Coleman remarried and lives in Ca.

Kay Coleman on the right with Jack Ruby.

  • Will Fritz bred horses.
  • The so called recording room right opposite Will Fritz’s Homicide and Robbery Division office, was not wired for sound.

Dallas Police Department Floor plan. Courtesy of No Case To Answer by Ian Griggs

 

  • Ian Griggs had a decommissioned Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. I had no measuring tape so could not say how long it was, but the rifle was broken apart, so I just held the wooden part of it and I can tell you now that there is no way that rifle could be inside the paper bag since this piece is way too long. I could not cup this underneath my shoulder and inside the palm of my hand.

Holding a Mannlicher-Carcano, which is way too long for cupping it. Pic: Barto

 

Colony Club flyer signed by Beverly Oliver

Colony Club flyer signed by Beverly Oliver. Pic: Barto

 

Dallas Police Buckle. Pic. Barto

Dallas Police Buckle. Pic. Barto

 

Jim Leavelle and RC Graves autographed phoptograph of Ruby shooting Oswald

Jim Leavelle and R.C. Graves autographed photograph of Ruby shooting Oswald.

 

  • Ian also had a nice collection of newspapers from that period, I produce two here with some interesting bits related to ‘our’ case, I hope to be able to reproduce more in the future.

Kingsport Times Nov 22nd 1963. Pic: Barto

 

Kingsport News Nov 23rd 1963. Pic Barto

 

  • Last but not least a time sheet of some major Dallas Police Department Officers from Nov 1963.
Dallas Police Department Time Sheet Nov 1963

Dallas Police Department Time Sheet Nov 1963

I hope to see Ian again at the Dealey Plaza UK Canterbury conference on April 23rd/24th where I will present a Prayer Man talk and also will be doing a Q&A with Malcolm Blunt.

I have also been notified that my chat with Rob Clark of the Lone Gunman Podcast has become the highest listened to show so far, not bad indeed! Thank you Robbo!!!