In part 1 of Lovelady’s HSCA interview (originally posted by Richard Gilbride at the ROKC website) we skip to around the 24:50 mark where the talk is about the front steps of the TSBD, its occupants (he names Frazier, Shelley and Stanton and some ladies from the offices inside the building).
His position was the 2nd or 3rd step sitting and eating his lunch and having a coke (which he purchased in the second floor lunchroom).
He is asked whether he saw Oswald on those steps and he answers this with a “No.”.
The follow-up question whether it could have been possible that Oswald could have been on those steps and him not noticing is answered with: “Could have.”
Just after the 29:00 mark he talks about a lady who ran up to them (without any indication as to where “they” were-B.K.) and say that The President had been hit and he identifies her as Gloria Calvery. He then says after Gloria Calvery says that The President had been hit they leave for the rail road yard and then make their way back in through one of the side entrances of the TSBD.
Then he describes the situation inside the building after they got back in (31:20) wondering whether they should go back to work. And at 31:40 the roll call is discussed.
In part 2 (better quality audio) Lovelady describes at first that Truly and the police officer (Baker) had run up the steps, and connects this with shots being fired from the 6th floor and those two on their way investigating this. He does declare that he did nit know the reason for their ascend at that time, only later. Then Secret Service and others come in and want to get up to the top floor so Lovelady takes about ten to fifteen of them up in one of the freight elevators.
After taking them the 7th and the 5th floor he takes them to the 6th floor and while he is standing near the freight elevator he states he was present when they found the shells. He did not see them, he also states that he saw the rifle being found from about a distance of 50 feet. It did have a sling attached to it. He times these finds at about 20-25 minutes after his arrival back inside the TSBD.
Around the 08:20 mark he states that the first time he spoke with a law enforcement official and had his primary statement taken was at 13:30, one hour after the assassination. The second time is in the evening and he confirms it’s him in Altgens6 when FBI agents show up at his house at 18:00.
After that he is shown a still of him on the front steps of the Martin film, with his 5 o’clock shadow and he confirms it is him. A voice in the background (Robert Groden.) says that this was shot between 8-15 minutes after the assassination. Lovelady sees this image for the first time. Lovelady’s wife is present as well and recognises him in that image. This part is interesting due to the interaction of the interviewer and Lovelady. Sean Murphy posts about Billy Lovelady at the Education Forum in 2013 (Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, Chapter 9):
In the first part of his HSCA interview Billy Lovelady Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 15 minutes post-assassination. Lovelady identifies himself immediately.
HSCA: If a movie camera showed you farther in the center of the doorway than that person there [i.e. Lovelady in Altgens, who appears, due to the deceptive angle, to be well over to the left/west of the entrance] would you still identify that person as being yourself?
LOVELADY: Sure would. I would say the other picture was not taken at the split second as the one to the left is.
HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?
LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
Whether knowingly (i.e., with knowledge of the Prayer Man figure in Wiegman) or unknowingly (i.e., by pure speculation), the HSCA interviewer noticed Two Lovelady-resembling men caught on film at the time of the assassination, one over on the west (“left”) side of the entrance and the other more towards the center.
The interviewer could have been getting some information from Richard E. Sprague regarding this discovery, since he was already well informed on the sighting of that man on the west side of the TSBD steps in the shadow.
From thereon the convo steers into the shirt matter, when the FBI ask him to come so he can be photographed as a comparison to Altgens6. No one tells him to wear the same shirt so he does NOT wear it while his pix are taken.
Lovelady also mentions that Joseph Ball contacted him before he was to testify in front of the Warren Commission (27:10). Ball discusses that he will be interviewing him about the actions around the assassination about him around the building. He is also asked whether he was coached by Ball or if anyone else from any agency tried anything, and to both he replies “No.”
But the biggest revelation is saved to the very last, at 29:20 when he says that it took 20-25 minutes before he got back in the building, so while captured by Martin and Hughes he still had not regained entry back into the building, which makes you wonder how he got back in through the side of the TSBD along with Shelley?
This Roy Truly interview was done by Will Lang for Dolores Kraich and sent to Holland McCombs, who was bureau chief for TIME and LIFE magazine in Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Mexico City, and Dallas.
It deals with Truly’s recollections of Oswald’s job application, the day of the assassination, the second floor lunch room encounter, but also delves into the whole Doorway man matter.
- Truly, on page 2 describes Oswald as an ‘undetected paranoiac’
- Page 3, he states that Oswald could not have known about the motorcade passing by the TSBD until 72 hrs beforehand. And starts to speculate about and eventually condemns Oswald heavily “But as I suppose we all now realize, he had to shoot somebody or do something big. He probably would have shot anybody who was big enough if he had the chance or could make the chance”.
- Page 4 digs into the doorway-man Lovelady vs Oswald saga.
- Page 5, he discusses the day JFK got shot. He mentions Lovelady and being outside on the steps, and himself standing in front of those steps near the curb of Elm. What is downright rubbish is his description of a wave of people making their way back and that Baker had to push his way though the crowd. The Couch and Darnell films show that Baker had a clear run towards the TSBD building.
- On page 8 he contradicts himself regarding this wave of people. “there were not so many people out there in front of this building when the President’s car passed here”
- Page 9 shows that the author(s) forwarded a copy to Hugh Aynesworth in 1967.
Overall a well rehearsed interview, a puff piece by the looks of it, but Truly makes the same mistake again like he did with his statements, testimony and newspaper reports, he always adds info that makes one question his claims.
In a small section of the Couch film researcher Gerda Duncke found Lovelady and Shelley in the Couch film, which also partially captured Baker’s dash towards the TSBD.
Gerda Dunckel pointed them (Shelley and Lovelady) out in 2012.
Here are videos of her Gifs
There have been some doubts about the identity of them but I was sold on it back then and even more now.
This ROKC scan of a Couch print from the archives (Richard E. Sprague collection) at first sight did not offer much detail overall, but all the more with regards the two persons who we thought were Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Well this shot and especially its close-ups seals it.And is also conform their initial statements. And this visual clincher shows that they both lied about their presence on the steps during their WC testimony.
I have had the pleasure to talk with Rob Clark for the Lone Gunman Podcast.
So far it has been the top listened to show of all 104 eps in the first 24 hours.
It was good fun and in a few months there will be some sort of follow-up with all the progress.
This post has been amended on Jan 29th, Feb 14th, Feb 16th and Oct. 14th 2016.
I am going to put an end to this debate whether Lovelady and Shelly stayed on the steps as they claimed in their Warren Commission testimonies and to which certain people subscribe to for some obscure reason, there is just plenty to refute this rubbish assertion.
For starters, take a look at the Gerda Dunckel gifs below and check Lovelady’s shirt in the very first few frames and also check out the large still I snagged from PBS Breaking The News, click to enlarge, yes that shirt is checkered, compare it to other garments of a lighter colour or the polka dot coat which do not smudge due to motion and quality loss. Then look at Shelly, with his black suit and his facial and hair features. For reference of who we are talking about I suggest you check out Billy Lovelady’s and Bill Shelley’s pages I have made which contain plenty of photographs of these two individuals. Both pages are still under construction but there is plenty to see from a visual point of view.
Upon looking at the image by Couch we see that Shelly wears a black jacket and that Lovelady’s shirt has black horizontal stripes in it. I will place a close-up below. This is not the end result of sharpening and cannot be construed as a digital artefact. Click to enlarge the shot above and you will see that these stripes are nowhere else to be seen on this image. The polka dot coat stays as is, the camouflage/dot coat as well. And even in the light toned skirts/coats there are no such markings to be seen.
Here is a collage of Lovelady’s shirt in many settings, and with motion blur applied, the black stripes become a feature once motion blur gets into the picture.
Add on photographs Oct 14th 2016.
This ROKC Scan of a Couch film still at first looks very harsh and doesn’t overall have much information, but it does happen to show a lot regarding our illustrious duo. This print comes from the Richard E. Sprague Collection from the National Archives.
I applied various ways of sharpening with overall decent results to be absolutely positive that these two are Shelley and Lovelady. Lovelady’s shirt is a dead give away and so is the shape of Shelley, compare that with the collage below.
As strong as this looks it could be dismissed as an interpretation of a few photographs. So let’s have a look at the paperwork with Lovelady’s and Shelley’s statements and testimonies.
Lovelady’s very first handwritten statement on Nov 22nd 1963 makes no mention of Oswald even after he is paraded past him.
But that very same statement also makes no mention of them (him and Shelley) leaving the steps either. He actually states: ”After it was over we went back into the building and went to work” With the ‘went to work’ bit stricken through. This bit is omitted from the typed up and signed report. See the first two documents below.
But then Billy Lovelady states in the FBI report by Robert M. Barrett from the same day as his affidavit to the DPD: ”immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelly started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building”. During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw no suspicious individuals.
Lovelady also mentions in document CE 1381 the following: “I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy’s car had stopped William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building”.
In all fairness I have to add that overall CE 1381 needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, since 73 employees of the TSBD were asked a specific set of questions compiled by the Commission via Hoover to answer to. Something Harold Weisberg pointed out very early on with the “At that time” question.
Shelly (trying to enter the police vehicle) leaves for the DPD station at 13:30 with Danny Arce Garcia and Bonnie Ray Williams as seen below.
He states in his very first affidavit on Nov. 22nd “I ran across the street to a corner of the park. I ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery. Who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened.” This first statement, like Lovelady’s, contains no reference to Lee Harvey Oswald either. I also value this first statement for the inclusion of him running across after the shots were fired.
FBI Statement of Bill Shelly March 18th 1964 CE 1381: “Immediately following the shooting Billy Lovelady and I left…….”
The primary statements of these two contradict their WC testimony which no one bothered to ask about while they were giving their testimony.
Warren Commission Testimonies.
Now the only thing that I find true of their WC testimonies is the fact that they left the steps together.
In Shelly’s WC testimony things are given a nice twist, they stay there for a minute, they have Gloria Calvery coming up the steps doing her bit which contradicts his first statement. The island gets a mention here. Truly and Baker are seen after 3 or 4 minutes! And then they leave and then are re-entering through the back of the building.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said “The President has been shot” and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL. Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY. That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY. There’s concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn’t it?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, that’s also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL. You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL. How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL. The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. FALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHFZLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The Vice President hadn’t gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY. I don’t know. I didn’t recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL. And Truly? Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building7
Mr. SHELLEY. So; we didn’t watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin’ to go in.
Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BAL.L. Were they running?
Xr. SHELLEY. That, I couldn’t swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL. What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the flrst railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes ; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY. He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL. Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who else did you see?
Nr. SHELLEY. That’s all we saw immediately.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw her that day but I don’t remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL. You don’t remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL. You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Nr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr. BALL. Now, did the police come into the building?
Illr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir ; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL. Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don’t know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Billy Lovelady fantasises even some more.
I have added some notes in bold.
Mr. BALL – Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yeah.
Mr. BALL – When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY – Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or–she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn’t know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL – First of all, let’s get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY – Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL – Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY – Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes—
Mr. BALL – You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY – No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL – That’s all?
Mr. LOVELADY – And hollerin.
Mr. BALL – How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY – I don’t know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess—
Mr. BALL – They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY – Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL – By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY – As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL – How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY – Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL – Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes. At no time in the Couch film is Lovelady seen looking back.
Mr. BALL – Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY – Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL – Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY – Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL – And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL – You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY – Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL – Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes, it’s—I say approximately; I can’t say because I don’t have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL – Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY – Well, I couldn’t say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn’t looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps–see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL – Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY – Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL – A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes.
Mr. BALL – How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY – Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL – You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY – Yes. Again at no time in the Couch film is Lovelady seen looking back or responding to any hollering.
Lovelady then also destroys Vicky Adams’ testimony from a time perspective with his WC testimony, so the Commission can claim she was wrong.
It has become obvious that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were lying while being interviewed by Joseph Ball all to mess with the timings perspective with regards Oswald and them going back to one of the rear entrances since that would also show how long it took before the building was actually secured. The TSBD exits after the shooting resembled Swiss cheese for many minutes after the shooting.
These statements and the Warren Commission testimonies by Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady show plenty that they did leave the steps almost immediately after the shooting and that they cannot be accounted on the steps for in the Jimmy Darnell film, besides walking westwards and being seen doing so in a better capture in the Malcolm Couch film.
Shelly was Oswald’s supervisor and worked directly under Roy Truly.
Lovelady had a weapons charge dangling of which Ochus Campbell (Roy Truly’s boss) paid off the remainder of Lovelady’s fine as he was being re-arrested for non-payment.
You wonder where these men’s loyalties lie? Not with someone who only joined a month before the big event and who later on it turned out to be living in Russia for almost three years
There is quite a bit pointing to that Shelly and Lovelady left the steps to go west of the TSBD almost within 15/20 seconds after the last shot.
Listening to it, and considering it is a year old it is missing a few bits of research. I will try and straighten a few things out if you intend to listen to it.
Prayer Man was captured by Dave Weigman and Jimmy Darnell, and not by Malcolm Couch, his swerve to the right with his camera did not go as far as the TSBD steps, but the Couch film is an asset nevertheless as it shows William Hoyt Shelley and Billy Nolan Lovelady walking away towards the parking lot behind the knoll. This is an important fact to know as it helps reduce the possible candidates of who Prayer Man actually is.
Sean Murphy deserves the large part of the credit of creating Prayer Man, but the exact moment of discovery at this time, is hard to ascertain, that is because the JFK Lancer forum where this possibly happened has gone offline, the Education Forum hopes to reinstate it later, Summer 2016, so they say. It was supposed to be sorted in November this year but they have added at least 6 months on top of it.
The real discoverer of Prayer Man is Richard E Sprague (more about him when my essay is out) who mentioned the man hidden in the shadows, when he saw Dave Weigman’s film. He mentioned it in the late 60’s already. His correspondence with Harold Weisberg and Richard Benarbei shows this.
Rob Clark makes good mention of the basic issues such as the first day affidavits of Baker, Lovelady and Shelly which do not correspond with the Warren Commission testimony.
He then talks about Bill Shelley, and the identification of him and the pictures that are around. This is where he is wrong. His identity has been solved with the many pictures and the statements that are available of him. Shelly also said he escorted and was at the police station giving statements with Danny Garcia Arce and Bonnie Ray Williams.
Then he makes the statement that he cannot see Billy Lovelady in Dave Weigman’s film, well here he is Rob :) And that is and Prayer Man and Billy Nolan Lovelady together.
Regarding Will Fritz’s interrogation notes it is not that simple, one needs to add James Bookhout’s and Harry D Holmes reports and testimony into account as well, and a different picture starts to emerge (again this site will show the hows etc in due course).
Jack Dougherty is brought up as well, and rightly so, to this day a very shady character with not much info available about him. His statements were so iffy, and Roy Truly told everyone not to pay too much attention to him as he was mildly retarded, yeah sure Roy. The Warren Commission wanted to grill Jack Dougherty big time as they did not believe what he was saying, well if the W.C. wants to seriously question someone then something is really amiss……
Rob Clark brings up a valid point that all TSBD employees should have been photographed when their testimony was taken, it would have helped of course.
Then Rob cannot believe that Oswald was standing there all that time while the shooting was going on and after and not being seen or recognised or mentioned in any of the testimony. He makes a mention of Lee Harvey Oswald getting change on the 2nd floor as per Robert Groden’s story, which has been disproved the minute it came out in his book. Jim Marrs tried to flog this one as well, but there is no evidence whatsoever that this actually happened. Nor did Oswald ever make a mention of it.
Can Buell Wesley Frazier be believed asks Rob, well no……
Rob is right to doubt the bus ride, the cab ride and the timings involved since they are not possible.
Could it be a stranger he asks, which has been disproved. Nor does it hold 100 employees, 79 at the most. The Warren Commission got 73 statements in the end.
The identification of the African American guy en-profile is not Otis Williams but Carl Edward Jones. Otis Williams and his pot belly stands in the center above Maddie Reese in Altgens 6.
Overall not a bad attempt at discussing this but there is a lot missing, and I mean a lot, and as mentioned I will paste it all here on this site hopefully very soon.