Sep
29
Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton on the steps of the T.S.B.D.
There are a couple of things that I recently came across and am pretty sure the riddle of Sanders and Stanton step positions is solved. But first the statements by Pauline Sanders.
F.B.I. statement by Pauline Sanders, Nov 24th 1963. Click to enlarge.
Is it not odd that she states in her Nov 24th statement that she did not see Oswald in the lobby that remarkis as significant as Sean Murphy’s find of Roy Truly saying in his Nov 22nd F.B.I. statement “They saw no one there” once allegedly arriving with Baker in the vestibule/lobby, when at the same time we can see in Darnell several people preceding them going up those stairs. The only reason for putting this in their statements is trying to refute Prayer Man’s or better yet Oswald’s presence, near the front door. Take Carolyn Arnold’s first F.B.I. statement, the one that got deep sixed, into consideration as well!
CE 1381. F.B.I. statement by Pauline Sanders March 18th 1964. Click to enlarge.
According to Sanders’ statements on Nov 24th 1963 and March 18th 1964 she said that she stood nearest the door and on the top step, but that is only partially true.
The top landing would have been way to cramped with Shelley and Molina occupying that eastern side already. Plus we know Frazier and Lewis stood inside the doorway. And I doubt she would stand behind Shelley and Molina, same goes for Sarah Stanton. The width of the eastern or the western side of the steps would allow for two people to stand next to each other and not more. There was no reason to cram next to each other as there was plenty of room to spread out. Here is a picture from the W.C. and two drawings taken by the F.B.I. shortly after the assassination for comparison.
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- Front steps T.S.B.D. Click to enlarge. Source: Mary Ferrell
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- T.S.B.D. front steps drawing 1963. Thanks to Gary Murr. Click to enlarge.
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- T.S.B.D. building and front steps drawing. Dec. 1963. Thanks to Gary Murr. Click to elnarge
Let’s move on to the Wiegman and Darnell films, we know who said that they stood on the steps. The following women were there: Maddie Reese, Ruth Dean, Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton. Dean and Reese have been identified.
We find Pauline Sanders in Wiegman she stands on the 3rd or 4th step. I posted this shot at the Education forum in August 2018.
Pauline Sanders in the Dave Wiegman film. Click to enlarge. Thanks to John Woods.
Careful study of the Wiegman frame shows that next to Sanders is someone with blond hair and a white (or any other light coloured) outfit, you can barely see her but she cuts into Sanders on her left side, so for us that is on the right side. She is partially hidden by the east end of the wall and due to the angle Wiegman is filming from, he is not filming the steps straight on.
Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton in the Dave Wiegman film (Kamp/Ledoux version). Click to enlarge.
Pauline Sanders also said in her statements she stood next to Sarah Stanton, she made no mention of anyone else. That gives us an even better idea who to look for in these pix.
In the time period between Wiegman and Darnell (10-15 seconds) Sarah Stanton moved slightly more inwards and Pauline Sanders has moved up to the landing. This is because of Lovelady and Shelley leaving the steps right after the final shot. Otis Williams went inside and Joe Molina moving more centre on the landing therefor creating a gap on the east end of the steps/landing. Sanders could have wanted to get a better view down Elm St. after the shooting and going up a few steps would have helped a bit.
Also consider Buell Frazier who only appears in Darnell and cannot be seen at all in Wiegman, and even Roy Lewis who is starting to appear behind Frazier, again no sign of him in Wiegman.
In Darnell, 10-15 seconds after the shooting she is seen on the landing. Andrej Stancak found her, but that section of the film shows her only in or or two frames. She went more upstairs compared to the Wiegman sequence and that could be because she stepped up to get a better view down Elm.
Darnell frame of the TSBD steps occupants. Sarah Stanton a short heavy set blonde woman is pointed out as such. Click to enlarge.
The women on the steps in the Wiegman and Darnell films are now all accounted for. Sarah Stanton is exactly standing where she said she was and all this was confirmed by Frazier.
Buell Wesley Frazier also confirms in some videos that Sarah Stanton was standing to his left, as per her own statement on the East side of the steps along with Pauline Sanders.
At 18:25.
At 53:30 Gary Mack, in a 2002 interview with Buell Wesley Frazier for the Sixth Floor Museum, specifically asks him, to his right or left and he points and says left!
In another interview at 06:02, Frazier who uses both his hands indicates only with his left hand outwards.
At 53:00 in the Gary Mack interview of Buell Frazier he refers to a lady (most likely Stanton, standing to his left, meaning East on the top of the steps.
And then in a third interview at 18:25.
And now we have a slightly better copy of te Darnell film, which shows the only short, heavy set blonde woman to Frazier’s left and it is game over and the Death of Prayer Woman. Doyle will foam at his mouth and will try and lie his way out of this, but Prayer Woman is dead….
Sarah Stanton about 4 ft away from Buell Frazier. Click to enlarge.
Updated Dec 16 2021.
More: Sarah Stanton.
Sep
08
Nat Pinkston and the snack room encounter
Nat Pinkston from the F.B.I. took a statement of Roy Truly on Nov 22nd 1963. Pinkston can be seen as the co-creator of the Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter fakery.
In this document it shows that Pinkston is aware of Oswald’s statement that the only rifles he saw in the building were two days prior when Warren Caster popped round and showed the two rifles to Roy Truly and others. This matter was discussed during the first interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald.
What was also discussed is that Oswald got a coke for his lunch, and not after, but that got twisted somehow with the fairy tale below.
In my opinion the first and real attempt on making Oswald look guilty.
Nat Pinkston Nov 22 1963 FBI Report. Click to enlarge.
This and Roy Truly’s statement dictated on the 22nd and typed up on the 23rd are the first official statements attesting to an encounter in the snack room.
Roy Truly FBI Report Nov 22-23 1963. Click to enlarge.
There are a few more bits on Nat Pinkston at his page.
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for the Pinkston document.
Roy Truly document from NARA.
Sep
03
The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.
Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.
Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.
A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.
By: Bart Kamp.
- The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
- Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
- Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly in different locations. Pages 24-25.
- Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
- In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
- Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
- Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
- Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
- In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states “they saw no one there” Page 46.
- Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
- Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up as is stated. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
- Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
- Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
- Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
- Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
- Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
- Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
- Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
- While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
- Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
- Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
- The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
- The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
- During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
- The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
- Mrs Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
- Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
- Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
- Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
- The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B.D. much later. Pages 112-113.
- Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
- Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
- The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press on Nov 23rd is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
- Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
- Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. In a new found document, a draft document by James Hosty, states that Oswald had a coke for his lunch and then went outside the watch the P. parade. Pages 136-146.
- The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening outside and inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.
COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.
