REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 5:59 AM

I have a niggle. Might be nothing more than a genuine error made based upon the fallibility of human memory but it could be something quite different...

 

...because I've just re-read Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement and he states the bus he was on that afternoon "...arrived at approximately 12:10PM or 12:15PM."

McWatters bus allegedly arrived at Milton Jones' bus stop outside the Capri Theater at 12:36PM. That's a big time difference when waiting for a bus. There was a bus due at the same stop just before 12:10PM that day which would get to Houston & Elm prior to 12:15PM (the spot where McWatters originally said Jones got on the bus!!!!!

 

Somewhat interesting.

 

Did McWatters bus initially get stopped on Elm Street because of the shooting or simply because of the parade itself? Was he really driving the 12:40PM LAMAR to MARSALIS BUS or what are the chances he was driving the 12:10PM LAMAR to MARSALIS bus?

 

If it's the second one what does that do to our new narrative? Does it stay the same or does it change anything? Pre-stamped transfers?

Good show Lee!!

Lets see what I can offer.

Jones got to the theater and he was waiting for the bus.
He said about 12:15  Cecil showed up.

But Cecil would wait here as usual if early.

He would KILL A MINUTE until about 12:35 and drive the half-block to St.Paul and Elm  where the bus dispatcher was timing him.

Mr. BALL - Were you ahead of your schedule?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I stopped about a block before now, just a block before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute.

Mr. BALL - What did you do this day?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.

Mr. BALL - After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.

Mr. BALL - Well then, back to *the question, what time did you leave that day, leave Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.

Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.

He kills time at the Theater with the other early drivers if they are at the theater too 'killing a minute.'
He would need to be back on the bus and heading to St Paul by 12:35. But we don't know whom the dispatcher was and if he marked up Cecil for being early or late. Evidence submitted, On Time.
Passengers would sit and wait.
Passengers would be able to board but would not need to pay fare to Cecil, in his presence, but the money better be in the receptical if you boarded and driver was off the bus. He can see number of passengers whom boarded and your two dimes and three pennies would be proof of payment.
If your Milton Jones and the bus is empty of even a driver you could enter the bus, pay the fare and take a seat. driver would board check the receptical for the right amount of change and let it drop into the collection bin and pull onto Elm from the theater toward St.Paul and the waiting dispatcher.

Mr. BALL - Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your record.

Mr. BALL - In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Could Milton's times be off by 10 minutes. Yes it is likely.

Could Elmer S. Blackmon be this dispatcher? https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11640&relPageId=222

Blackmon clan deserves a whole thread.  Thanks to Kimbrough!

Anyways ...Milton would get on Cecils parked bus....and wait.

Cecil could take a smoke break or use a restroom nearby, chat it up with the other drivers for a bit.

What did Jones say?
"He said that upon entering the bus he sat in the first seat, facing forward on the curb side of the bus and was alone."

No one, not even the driver? He was alone? No other passengers on the bus or was he alone in his seat?

To me he is ALONE on a parked bus.

Cecil after his break would drive to St.Paul and then about four blocks from Houston get stopped completely in traffic.

Cecil is asked:

Mr. BALL - Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.

He is not asked when and where he did hear sirens...thanks Ball.

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.

In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus and he got on.

Mr. BALL - You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic.

Mr. BALL - And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks.

Lee is correct, this stoppage is due to the motorcade coming through, and before 12:30 the lanes on Elm would be stopped.
The whole motorcade, press buses, etc would go through houston intersection after the shots were fired.
For Cecil traffic would begin to back up and by 12:36 he would be pulling out into Elm street traffic which has been stopped for several minutes pre-and -post motorcade. Some of this traffic was stopped previously at Harwood and Elm till the motorcade went by. It would be piled up again down Elm street before Houston.

Besides that the WC timing is suspect to walk seven blocks after 12:35 (WC used 3 minutes after assassination? oy vey Vickie Adams and Baker) and be where and when Cecil would need to be at that juncture in his trip/schedule to pick up Oswald.
7 blocks in less than five minutes. WC used 6 1/2 averaged minutes for the seven block 'walk'.

I see DPD directing traffic, Barnett, Smith and Smith? Intersection looks pretty messed up....


The intersection East of Elm and Houston was vehicle free. No cars waiting behind the parade watchers strung across the Elm St. intersection.

Did DPD stop traffic before Houston on Elm? Its just odd to to see no vehcles behind the people! Seems like they could stop traffic from coming across Record.
Food for thought.


So it is for both reasons of the Parade and Shooting Cecil would be tied up in traffic...and at Houston and Elm the Parade and Shooting were synonymous.

I don't see how we can put Jones on an earlier bus and it be Cecil's 1213 also. Too much doesn't fit.
Posting this so its not lost by bad keystroke or power outage and I will continue reply.

Question:

In Cecil's showup did they have each man step forward and say "Transfer Please"???? 

Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 6:57 AM

Addendum to Scenario #1:

McWatters was kept at City Hall until after midnight on 11/22 while the DPD went and secured Roy Milton Jones and the transfer.

We can see that when he was being interviewed McWatters was telling Detective C. N. Dhority that he had let the guy off on Marsalis because it is in his hadnwritten affidavit BUT IS CROSSED OUT:

WHY IS 004459 crossed out?

Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.

Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again... nothing seems to match up.

Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald" leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work? Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?

And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone? The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in reference to any getting on board and questioning people.

Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been merged to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.

Or something like that.

Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 7:08 AM

Scenario #1 Variation.

McWatters was driving the 12:10PM bus that Jones was on, before JONES quickly departed asking for a transfer.  Twenty minutes later he got back on the same bus after the parade/shooting because the bus was sat in the same spot (or had moved a block or two) for at least 20 minutes.

With this scenario variation the Lee Harvey Oswald character IS ALL Roy Milton Jones.  JONES got on the bus.  Stayed on the bus for a few blocks. Asked for a transfer and got off the bus.  But the difference is JONES reboarded the exact same bus after the parade.

McWatters himself said he was caught in traffic on Elm Street for 15-20 minutes but this delay was always framed around the aftermath of the shooting when the reality was he was possibly caught in the traffic for 15-20 minutes by the parade.

In this scenario Cecil would have possesion of the transfer he gave to Jones and Jones gave back to cecil. (in pristine condition)

Cecil and that transfer would be pretty familiar with each other by then. 

We do not know from evidence presented what would happen with a transfer given to a driver.
He should logically keep it and turn it in to the office, perhaps with that days/weeks timesheet.
I think he would have to turn it in sooner than later, his supervisor needing the transfers if there were a complaint called in. I think at end of run/s @ 3:30ish.

Question: Could officers have gotten a transfer from the shirt LHO changed out of at time of Beckley search at 3pm? (If LHO did change shirts his transfer could be there at Beckley, in the drawer in the shirt pocket just as LHO said, and would back up LHO's story of a bus ride home and changed clothes)

At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report (Box 2, Folder# 9, Item# 32) http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm that after he finished taking some affidavits, Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and they arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM.

Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report (Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they arrived at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM.

Anyways,,,,the transfer would be given to a driver and logically turned in by the driver at the Transit office afterward.

But if Jones was on Cecils bus for the 12:40 Marsalis run, that run was 'stopped about 4 blocks from Houston' according to Jones.
It was completely stopped by traffic backed up in this area.

“I remember the night before and the morning too, I asked my dad if we could go downtown to the Triple Underpass because we could walk out on the tracks and watch the motorcade go right under us,” Siddons said. “… My dad said no because the traffic would be heavy, and he didn’t know if he could get me back to school in time. https://www.liberty.edu/champion/2013/11/looking-back-on-jfk/

We know James Tague was stopped from heading the opposite direction.
"It was an accident I was there, it was un-planned, I just happened to get stopped in traffic."

The spot where Jones says is the stoppage, Four Blocks is repeated by Cecil.

Mr. McWATTERS - Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.

Mr. BALL - At that point.

What course did you take after that?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.


But eventually Cecil is able to get through the last couple blocks.

....When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which would be south--

Mr. BALL - You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.

Mr. BALL - Was traffic still heavy along there?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.

In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other words, north and south.

Mr. BALL - You went on down to Houston viaduct then?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.

So not only were other buses, which could be transfered to but why, were also tied up there. Beckley bus should be one of those 'buses.'
But traffic was being diverted or detoured off Elm St. before Record.



Concerning Lee's question of CE NUMBER Items used for Mcwatters testimony and that no items were maked as being a Mcwatter's Exhibit is odd seing he brought in the "bus schedule" :

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2050/62-109060-50B.pdf

These items were to be made available for the Cab driver and Bus drivers testimony!
Why was Cecil not shown item number 4., the receipt or 004451?   


On the face of things it seems as Jones story and Cecils make sense a man and a woman got transfers when the bus was

Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 5:12 PM

Bus numbers are printed on the transfer next to the bus route. #30 is the Marsalis bus and #23 is the Lakewood bus.

I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this but I'm still confused as fuck. 

It's usually procedural stuff like this, cuturally different to my own experiences, that screws with my brain.

And I go back to my question; if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM why the hell would I be given a transfer suggesting I'd been on the #23 bus (LAKEWOOD) when I hadn't?

Answer:

When the bus left Anita and Cambria it was showing a sign MARSALIS 30

The bus had transfers available, they were punched PM and LAKEWOOD.

Passengers whom asked for a transfer would be torn a transfer from the top of the Lakewood booklet.

Passengers on that particular bus whom asked for a transfer anywhere downtown would get a LAKEWOOD transfer.

Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.

Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS.

"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus. Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. "

I don't think transfer would normally be handed out on that route after Lamar.

The idea of transfers is that you change bus in central Dallas... in and out... like the spokes of a wheel.

That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus (presumably nearby in the central hub).,

Greg at February 7, 2015 at 1:07 AM

Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.

Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again... nothing seems to match up.

Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald" leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work? Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?

And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone? The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in reference to any getting on board and questioning people.

Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been merged to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.

Or something like that.

 

Jones' 15 would be outbound passengers.

Jones was alone when he got on. Whatever that means. He was not with anyone? Or no other person was on the parked bus? Answer that...

Jones and Cecil both have the two passengers whom board at the same time get off at the same time.

Is that there any other reason given than to re-board Cecil's bus that the Suitcase Lady, asks for or is given, a transfer by Cecil. Same with the man.
What other use could it serve? reduce the number of transfers in his book? 
Hmmm. Could Jones be right and the Lady got off and only the man got a transfer, ....or the man got off the rear. and the Lady whom had to drag on her suitcase would not go towards the back of the bus?
I think she would have been very close to the front if their was room available there with 15 others.
She was a Blonde with Baggage.

Mr. McWATTERS - "The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town,..."
They could be looking for Givens if they did board the bus.
Why no other claims of being TSA'd by DPD on 11/22 by some fifteen other passengers?   (TSA'd = frisked)
I don't think it happened that way no matter what is in the FBI report of what Jones said.

Jones' claims of two frisky policemen is at odds with everything. No other reports of buses being searched by media. No witnesses to searches telling their story of 11/22.

Maybe we should ask Hugh!!

“Oswald caught a city bus here,” Hugh Aynesworth is telling his visitor as the two of them cross Griffin Street on their way down Elm. “He only rode it a few blocks and then got tied up in the traffic jam around Dealey Plaza.”

“I wonder why he took a bus back toward the School Book Depository?” the visitor asks. “It seems he would want to go the other way.”

“Yeah, it does,” Aynesworth says, as the two proceed down Elm, jostled by the pre-Christmas crowds on their way to Sangers and Neimans and Brooks Brothers. It is a bitterly cold day, but Aynesworth seems oblivious to it. “But, ” he adds, with a soft smile, “That‘s what he did. He got off the bus here”—the two cross the corner of Elm and Lamar—“and ran over to the Greyhound Bus Station, where he caught a cab.”

"Aynesworth should know. He broke the story of Oswald’s escape route," 

Senator COOPER - Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.

Senator COOPER - Who didn't tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS - The police didn't.

The police needed to tell Cecil that his passenger, whom must have had a transfer, was the same one whom said the president was shot in the temple. Sounds like Police had Cecil on an accessory after the fact charge if he didn't help out.
Besides if it was Oswald how would he know JFK was shot in the temple? Was he also shooting from the knoll?
Could he learn this from Reed or other workers before his seven block dash?.,,, if it was LHO whom was on a bus and said this.

. A follow-up question asked: “Can you say where the bullet entered his head, Mac?” To this Kilduff replied: “It is my understanding that it entered in the temple, the right temple.” Later that day, Chet Huntley repeated this: “President Kennedy, we are now informed, was shot in the right temple'It was a simple matter of a bullet right through the head,' said Dr. George Burkley, the White House medical officer." [NBC video, 11/22/63, 1:47 p.m. CST; (See JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference, by Vincent Palamara, p. 44.)
This is following a UPI wire service story at 1:47 cst. stating the same.

Heck the first national news bulletin of the 'shooting' came over the ABC Radio Network at 12:36 pm CST/1:36 pm EST.
UPI had a 12:38 report.  http://smallnotes.library.virginia.edu/2013/11/20/this-just-in-upi-wire/

It would be a long time to wait in traffic on a bus for news to announce the Temple Shot at 12:47
this would work for Cecil, and the man in the car would hear the radio news and tell Cecil and thusly Jones.

Of course Cooper is the one whom sees through all of the loose talk and rumor mongering and wants facts.

Senator COOPER - Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near Murphy Street.

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Is he the same man who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.

Senator COOPER - Who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS - A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me.

Senator COOPER - Told you what?

Mr. McWATTERS - That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the President had been shot.

Senator COOPER - I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS - Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.

Senator COOPER - It was the teenage boy who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one. That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.

But Jones doesn't know anything about the president being shot in the Temple. No recollection at all of the Temple Shot.

Then we get this gem!!

Mr. BALL - We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.

Mr. BALL - And the teenager was where?

Mr. McWATTERS - He was sitting right here.

Mr. BALL - At the place "O", is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, at the place "O".

Mr. BALL - I see--

Mr. McWATTERS - That is where the conversation was going on.

A bit of steering by Ball to get the teenager back on the bus for the Lady, just hopping on and paying her fare, to have this conversation!


Yes Greg The BUS is one PaRt TwiLiGHt ZoNe one part Disney! 

John Mooney at February 7, 2015 at 2:59 AM

"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus. Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. "

 

 

I don't think transfer would normally be handed out on that route after Lamar.

The idea of transfers is that you change bus in central Dallas... in and out... like the spokes of a wheel.

That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus (presumably nearby in the central hub).,

Not entirely true,

You could transfer at Jefferson and Marsalis with the 004459 transfer.

Transfer point 7 I believe on the list.

Cecil only took two booklets.
They changed at the end of the run.
Not in the middle. Not dowtown.
At the end of the runs, farthest points, on the maps with arrows! At Anita and at Pentagon were where the changes occured.

Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 12:21 PM

Terry Martin at February 4, 2015 at 11:07 AM

Not really, although it would be easier to follow if I used a map.

 

The only confusion I found was in the middle of the second paragraph "...Market and Elm and Record and Elm." This should have ended the description of the downtown stops and started another paragraph with "This bus then turns south on Houston..."

 

At the end it returns to its starting point at Main and Lamar and starts over from the top.

 

At least that how it seems to me. (a frequent over-looker of the obvious)

Maybe I've been at this too long, Terry. The amount of time we have to spend to work out how a bleedin' transfer works and how it was cut is something new researchers should take into account before letting this case suck them in.

 

Are we saying this bus had three separate routes?

  

Route One - LAMAR STREET & MAIN STREET to CAMBRIA & ANITA - Route ends and bus starts route two

 

Route Two - CAMBRIA & ANITA to PENTAGON & MARSALIS Route ends and bus starts route three

 

Route Three - PENTAGON & MARSALIS to LAMAR STREET End of route three and begins route one again

 

 

 

Route, run potato, potato


Yes Route had an AM run, route one.


and two PM routes, route 2 and 3 by your submission.


Transfers changed at end of route, start of route two. Signs change. If not already a Marsalis 30 Bus
Transfers change again at start of route three. Signs change to lakewood 23 bus.

Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 4:48 PM

My main question is quite simple.  Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR.  When he got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.

So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.

This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus?  If the answer is YES, I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things, if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?

Thank you Lee for finding these maps/routes!


URL please!

Please give website address for these.

Greg at February 7, 2015 at 1:07 AM

Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.

Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again... nothing seems to match up.

Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald" leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work? Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?

And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone? The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in reference to any getting on board and questioning people.

Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been merged to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.

Or something like that.

 

This is all falling into place for me, Greg, and it is what I love about collaborative research.  Something in short supply elsewhere.  

What is self-explanatory, upon reading McWatters' testimony, is that Roy Milton Jones and the "other man" who McWatters said boarded the bus are one and the same person.  Two men were made from one man and that one man WAS Roy Milton Jones.  No doubt about it.  

There are slips throughout McWatters testimony, prior to Cooper taking over and the wheels falling off the ID, that point blank tell us that poor old Cecil was struggling to give the two different men different identities because they were one and the same:

Mr. BALL - And a man got on. Was it the same man?

Mr. McWATTERS - That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up, in other words.

Mr. BALL - And the man you gave the transfer to?

Damn straight, Cecil.  We know it was the "same man" because Roy Milton Jones got off the bus and then got back on.

Mr. McWATTERS - The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.

Mr. BALL - And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS - Two blocks was the only distance.

Mr. BALL - How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS - Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to.

Who paid from St. Paul?  Roy Milton Jones paid from St. Paul

The whole testimony is a fraud.  I went through it again last night and lost track of the deception involved due to a completely separate character being created out of Jones and how difficult is was for Cecil to keep up.  Everything that Cecil says the "other man" did is JONES.  

McWatters was ID'ing JONES in the lineup that evening at City Hall because there WAS NO OTHER MAN.

Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.

Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.

Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - At that time you didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup.

It's ALL horseshit.  Other than the fact that Cecil was driving A bus that day we cannot fucking believe anything that comes out of his mouth.  Want to know the depths of the lies that we are facing here?  Want to know why no official time schedules were placed into evidence during Cecil's testimony?

Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.

Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.

Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.

Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.

Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.

So why did McWatters pre-punch?

Mr. McWATTERS - You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS - Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.

BULLSHIT.  Look at the bus schedules I posted.  

Both the 23 LAKEWOOD route and the 30 MARSALIS route had buses running until 1:30 AM.  What the fuck is Cecil talking about that 12:00 PM was really 12:00 AM? What time was a transfer punched if you wanted one in the early hours of the morning having been on the 12:32AM bus and disembarked at LAMAR asking for a transfer?  Would they punch it PM?

This testimony is fiction.  Beginning - middle - end.  FICTION.

Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 4:48 PM

My main question is quite simple.  Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR.  When he got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.

So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.

This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus?  If the answer is YES, I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things, if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?

okay got em
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=364250

These routes also show the Marsalis Run 30
does a PM run at 12:10 and 12:40.

They are listed as PM even though the "company considers up to 12:45 am"

Ed Ledoux at February 7, 2015 at 5:48 AM

Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 4:48 PM

My main question is quite simple.  Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR.  When he got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.

So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.

This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus?  If the answer is YES, I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things, if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?

Thank you Lee for finding these maps/routes!


URL please!

Please give website address for these.

They're a combination of materials from John Armstrong's Baylor folders and Mary Ferrell, Ed.  Don't have URL's to hand.  I have virtually every Armstrong folder on my hard drive in PDF form and I grab documents from MFF for storage and that is where I got them from.  This is material I collected from my first foray into this topic.

I downloaded all of the Baylor folders years ago so someone could put them to good use - - unlike John Armstrong.  

I simply screen grab the document from my MacBook and turn it into a JPEG and upload it to the site.

If I have a chance later I'll see if I can get some URL's.

The stuff about a bail bondsman earler rang a bell... and I was right. With a bit of googling I found one of my posts in Lee;s Ed Forum thread.

EXCERPTS FROM: THE MAN WHO SAW TOO MUCH by William Broyles, Texas Monthly, March, 1976

(Quote marks used where Aynesworth is being quoted)

"That's what he did. He got off the bus here... and ran over to the Greyhound Bus Station where he caught a cab."Aynesworth should know. He broke the story of Oswald's escape route.

The visitor is gripped by a vague growing doubt, the first stages of the incurable disease called Conspiracy Fever, a disease which has inflicted the 80% of the American people who do not believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed John Kennedy. The best cure for Conspiracy Fever is Hugh Aynesworth [I thought it was incurable? GP]

"...Assassins don't jump on buses. Oswald however, didn't know how to drive. He had only three choices. One, someone could drive him away. That didn't check out. [What was done to check it out, and who did it? No one as far as I can tell, but Aynesworth may know better. GP]... The other choices were a bus or a cab. He took the first of those two alternatives that came along. That happened to be a bus, which took him right back to Dealey Plaza. So he jumped off and caught a cab. It may sound strange, but it's what happened."

A pained expression came over Hugh Aynesworth's face as he spoke into his office telephone. "Oh no, he's not going to go on the air with that, is he?" He flicked an ash into an ashtray thoughtfully provided by a bail bondsman and started leafing through the stacks and stacks of clippings and documents beneath which one suspected, there lay a desk. "But didn't you tell him Mark Lane has been passing that story around for ten years?" Aynesworth continued to search through his desk while he held the receiver cradled with his shoulder. "No. She's Oswald's landlady. Remember, she told the Commission she saw him get on a bus the day of the assassination. A year or so later she was saying she saw Oswald get into a Dallas police car - car 107. But he can't go on the air with that, Jesus Christ. [Simply awesome. "The Best Cure" just conflated Bledsoe and Roberts and threw his own spice into the mix for good measure.GP]... Damn it, how long am I going to have to keep doing this" [debunk conspiracies-GP].

As the police and Aynesworth gingerly went down the aisle, a thin man leaped up, pointed a pistol at the belly of Nick McDonald and pulled the trigger. The gun clicked, failed to go off.

Aynsworth's list of firsts... begins with breaking the story on how the assassin escaped from the scene. Aynesorth and Larry Grove painstakingly reconstructed the route, resorting to every trick out of 'The Front Page' and a few of their own. It wasn't easy. The FBI had told witnesses not to discuss what they had seen with anyone. The break came when Aynesworth and Grove decided Oswald had to have taken a taxi after he got off the bus at the corner of Lamar and Elm. Groves and Aynesworth starting taking cabs, endless cabs. They'd pile in, give some destination, and then begin loudly discussing "Old what's his name, the guy who gave a ride to that little SOB who shot the President." If the driver didn't rise to the bait, they'd pull him over, pay him and hail another cab. Grove says they drove in enough cabs to drive to Mongolia. Eventually one cab driver looked over his shoulder and said "Oh, you mean Louie." "Yeah, that's right Louie. By the way, where's old Louie now?" "Ah, he's probably over at the Greyhound station in the line." So over to the Greyhound station and, after some smooth persuading of Louie, the escape route was nailed down" [Louie??? Was "William Whaley" such a difficult name to remember? Reminds me of when Wade seemed to refer to him as Daryl Click...did anyone else know that Aynesworth was the person who found William/Louie? I sure didn't know-- GP]

Haven't time to read the rest, so that's all for now. The article can be found in Google Books.

  ---------------------------------------------------

What are the chances this is the same bail bondsman referenced earlier by Ed?

I find it hard to believe that Roy Milton Jones would get his bus mixed up.  He says he got on the bus at 12:10 or 12:15. That is the bus BEFORE McWatters bus.  The 12:10PM LAMAR bus.  McWatters is the 12:40 PM LAMAR bus.

Thirty minutes difference.  Not 5 minutes.  Not 10 minutes.  Not 15 or 20 or 25.  30 minutes.  A completely different bus - - if we all honestly believe that McWatters was driving the 12:40 PM.  I'm not willing to accept he was driving the 12:40 PM bus at this point in time.  

There is so much bullshit to cut through before I'm willing to accept that as fact.  I can see plenty of loose ends in the scenario I have proposed but there are about 90% less loose ends in my scenario that exist in the story Joseph Ball and Cecil McWatters left us with.

John Mooney at February 7, 2015 at 2:59 AM

"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus. Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. "

 

 

I don't think transfer would normally be handed out on that route after Lamar.

The idea of transfers is that you change bus in central Dallas... in and out... like the spokes of a wheel.

That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus (presumably nearby in the central hub).,

LAMAR was the "General Transfer Point" for transferring buses DOWNTOWN.  However, as McWatters says, if we can believe a word he says, a transfer would be accepted anywhere in the downtown section:

Mr. BALL - Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; sure can.

Mr. BALL - Any particular transfer point?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.

Mr. BALL - If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, it sure would.

Mr. BALL - Up to the place where you change courses?

Mr. McWATTERS - It would be accepted; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS - That would be a transfer.

I'm sure there were other transfer points outside the downtown section and I'm convinced there is a document on Mary Ferrell that details them.  I'll give a go trying to find it this evening.

EDIT:

From the bus schedule itself we can see that if you were on an early ABRAMS bus from LAMAR there was a transfer point at ABRAMS & RAVENDALS for the MOCKINGBIRD HILLS bus:

Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.

Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend to your time stretch to 12:15.

Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour aleviate the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday?  If I am confusing issues... ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...

Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.

Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.

Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.

Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.

Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.

So why did McWatters pre-punch?

Because he alway dropped his transfers at Lamar at 12:40 or so.
He would give you an extra 5 minutes and save him from punching individual tickets (pain in the arse)
So he punched the book PM handed you a transfer at Lamar Punched PM and Lakewood after 12:40 and
called it good.