REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

So drivers are issued booklets exactly like my booklet.
The lack of forthcoming information about the other transfer boklets issued to Cecil and Bal and Belin failure to ask the important question of where in a book or The book did 004459 come?
Did it come from the top 10 transfers in a booklet starting 004451?
Or did both 004451 and 004459 come from farther down in the booklet?
We have to assume it was 004451 that represents an official receipt for book of transfers used by McWatters 11/22

Where does this leave 004459?

It is from farther down in a booklet than the number of transfers issued by Cecil.
If he issued two transfers, 004452 and 004453 should logically be missing if issued by Cecil but not redeemed by passenger it was issued to.
Then there are 47 more transfers in that booklet unused at the end of his run and that would include 004459.
Now Cecil said he took two booklets. Booklets of 50 transfers each or 100 transfers.
That is a lot of transfers! Especially when he may have given out two.
Would it make sense he takes this many?
Especially when he can pre-punch them all PM. I'm guessing if something happens to the bus he would need to issue transfers to ALL passengers on the bus. And if the bus was at capacity...yeah he may need them.

Transfers are numbered in sequence starting from 1 through 50, then from 51 through 00.
The booklet I have is the same type sequence. 51 -00 as the one issued to Cecil.

Map shows Roy Milton Jones would have boarded at the Capri Theater area where Cecil would park an kill time if early rather than be early at St. Paul and get a warning from the Bus Nazi'
So it seems Cecil was early that day and arrived after 12:15 according to Jones and if that is correct then Cecil would wait there till 12:35 and be at St.paul in a minute at 12:36.
 

Looking at the map CE 376 his route goes just shy of Mockingbird Ln. on Anita.

Gaston to Brendenwood drive where he can loop around Lakewood to Cambria Blvd then Back to town on Gaston.

But he says Ellesworth - Anita and CE 376 shows route going Gaston -Brendenwood Dr-Lakewood Blvd-Wendover Rd-Sperry St- (Ellesworth - Hillside Dr- Anita St. or reverse) and back down Sperry Street.

None of which is on his 6-4-1962 schedule. Was this added to this route?
Did he have to stop at Paulus, Peak and Hall for passenger pick ups on 11/22?
We are not told but Cecil says maybe 5 passengers were inbound from Lakewood.
If they all got transfers and also a working man and a lady with suitcase at Griffin that would leave 004459 on top of book.
1 receipt, 5 passengers, the Man and the lady = 8 transfers leaving 4459 on top!!!

Munger has always bugged me as it is skipped. It is not in the bus runs.
15 Ramona, 42 Elmwood, 30 Marsalis, 22 Beckley, etc etc etc, the runs are all shown with maps and schedules in the WC volumes. But NO MUNGER run.  Was it forgotten, discontinued? What would be the reverse of the Munger Run,

See this gem:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_1978.pdf
Map is newly printed yet out of date as to the scheduled runs route.

and some routes stay the same for years
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/wh26_ce_2694.pdf

A better copy of the map would help
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0012a.htm

Are the bus stops all Southbound?
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0226a.htm
Shitty drawing makes it look like all the circles and dots are only dots thus Southbound Beckley Bus Stops...on both sides of the street no less. oy veh

Craig knows nothing about a transfer
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Rackley.pdf

McWatters was at the 6:20 show up!
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Brown.pdf

Detective Dhority showed Cecil the transfer with the punch marks...but Brown mentions another officer there with
"this stub"  WTH? Is it Sims or Boyd?
Brown : Yes McWatters said  "Yes he is the one that got on the bus I gave him a transfer"
This about his ID of the number two person in the line-up, yet Cecil thought it was Milton???
Did he give a man whom did not remind him of Milton Jones a transfer?
The man whom knocked on the door and got off.
Or did Cecil think he gave a transfer to Milton Jones and that was him, Milton, in the lineup? He said to Milton on a later ride he did think it was Milton whom was number 2 and in trouble. But Milton got off in Oak Cliff at Brownlee and rode the bus often. He would not need a transfer unless he decided to get off the bus that day when it was stuck in traffic
Seems odd.

0488d 3/10/64 Results of interview with J.T. Hurry, Superintendent of Maintenance, Dallas Transit System

0488e 3/10/64 Results of interview with C.W. Eltrich, City Transportation Company

The Blue Front Cafe had two Dallas Transit buses infront on Elm at the time Cecil was there.  (Mrs SF)


Fritz has LHO heading from rooming house where LHO changed clothes to movies and encounters Tippit along the way?!?
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2155.pdf
Quick thinking reporter asks if he had the bus transfer in his pocket right after Fritz says LHO changed clothes. Nice.

Here Kelley reports Oswald told Fritz he left by bus from TSBD, secured a transfer when he got on the bus and transferred  to other buses to get to his destination.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/pdf/WH20_Kelley_Ex_A.pdf
Says this was LHO's first time in a cab as buses are always available. Paid 85cents fare.    (87c+23c+85c=1.95 in change Lee would need for these cab/bus rides plus change he had at time of arrest...would he have to get change from Hine for a soda if he supposedly had almost two dollars in change on him, maybe he drank a lot of soda or really like Hine)

QUESTION:     http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0190-001.gif
I see the transfer listed among Lee's personal property. Personal property that was in the evidence locker till the 30th with a tag date of 11/23 as Lee was not officially taken to jail/booked till 12:20am Sat. 23rd. and items would be entered then.  http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/the-life-and-death-of-lee-harvey-oswald/
Question is why is the transfer in with LHO's property?
Why not with other 'evidence' like the shells?
Would the transfer being locked up in the property locker prohibit its flight to Washington DC with Drain?
Hmmm what do you think??

Apparently, the transfers were not cut on a diagonal, or with scizzors or anything like that.

I remembered using the DC transportation a lot when I was younger and remembered a mechanism the driver used to tear off a transfer. With the touch of a simple mechanism, the transfer booklet would be advanced to the new time position.

An example of the cutter. http://globeticket.mybigcommerce.com/transfer-cutter-2-notcher/

Nice, Terry. I could well imagine that sometimes tickets didn't cut cleanly. If pulled the wrong way, you would end up with a tear instread of a cut.

Dale K. Myers said... (FWIW)

Michael - As far as I know, the bus station (do you mean stop?) you described was not there in 1963. If you mean a bus stop, yes, there was one there in 1963. However, as pointed out in With Malice [pp.358-59], Oswald had a bus transfer on him that was good for only one bus stop - the one at Marsalis and Jefferson. Had he taken that bus south he could have made connections to Mexico via the Greyhound bus line through Laredo, Texas. The Warren Commission figured Oswald had just enough money on him to reach Mexico and might have been able to use his pistol to acquire more. This escape scenario made it to the August 7 draft of the final report but was cut for being speculative rather than factual. No doubt the Commission was anxious to dodge the international implications as well.

March 24, 2012 at 9:57 AM

Boyd finds Five shells, and Sims finds Transfer. LHO takes off Marine Corp ring and hands it to Sims. (...Bracelet?)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Sims_Ex_A.pdf

Cecil Mcwatters drove a bus manufactured by White and it was a 44 passenger bus, so at capicty he would need at least 44 transfers if the need arose.

It takes 6 1/2 inutes to walk to Elm and Murphy and is Seven blocks. In heavy traffic it took the bus 4 minutes to make it two blocks to Poydras and Elm.

Dale K. Myers said...  FWIW

Michael - As far as I know, the bus station (do you mean stop?) you described was not there in 1963. If you mean a bus stop, yes, there was one there in 1963. However, as pointed out in With Malice [pp.358-59], Oswald had a bus transfer on him that was good for only one bus stop - the one at Marsalis and Jefferson. Had he taken that bus south he could have made connections to Mexico via the Greyhound bus line through Laredo, Texas. The Warren Commission figured Oswald had just enough money on him to reach Mexico and might have been able to use his pistol to acquire more. This escape scenario made it to the August 7 draft of the final report but was cut for being speculative rather than factual. No doubt the Commission was anxious to dodge the international implications as well.

March 24, 2012 at 9:57 AM

page 15
214 Neely St would be on the Bishop Bus Run No. 4
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/wh23_ce_1953.pdf
VC Snider...."after paying the fare a transfer can be asked for which entitles him to board any bus destined for the Oak Cliff area at any of the may transfer points in the downtown area . This would be necessary only if the original bus was not destined for a desired destination point in the Oak Cliff area."


Page 55 Dhority takes Cecils affidavit "also made identification of transfer defendant had in his pocket."
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/wh24_ce_2003.pdf


Okay some would say the transfer has to mean LHO rode a bus.
Not exactly. It could be a plant. I say that because of the lack of chain of evidence surrounding the booklet and receipt and other transfers in the booklet.
The booklet would show how many transfers were issued and at what time they were issued for, booklet stubs would tell the story.
The booklet would show that Cecil punched the transfers at the end of the line or "set the transfers for downtown."
A transfer in LHO pocket....Hmm when questioned would Lee say look in my pocket, there is a transfer, I took a bus to the movies.
Frizt may say that the transfer means Lee got off the bus immediately.
NOT SO!
You can ask for a transfer upon boarding.
Does not have to be a shoppers transfer. You may want/need to switch buses downtown. So you can ask for a regular bus transfer or just a Transfer at any time, even if you do not get off that bus.(immediately)  Perhaps you thought the bus was stuck in traffic and asked you for a transfer. Then the cops open a lane for buses so you decide to stay on the bus as traffic seems to be moving again. You stay on the bus, ride to Marsalis, walk six blocks to 1026 N Beckley, if you can get off on E. 5th or E. 6th Streets, or Jefferson Blvd for seven and a half block walk to Theater.

Why does Cecil pre-punch transfers at the end of the run or 'sets them for downtown' is because a passenger may enter his bus at anytime on the way to downtown. Upon entering they would pay the fare and may ask for either a bus transfer or a shoppers transfer.
Thus Cecil was prepared for this by pre-punching.
All his transfers were pre-punched PM and either Marsalis or Lakewood. (All except 004451 the receipt which was torn from front of booklet and Cecil placed his badge number on the reverse....Seems a punch mark would be equal to or superior to a badge number wrote on the back for ID purposes)


Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show.

Does Fritz talk with or send someone to speak with someone about the Beckley Bus Run No. 22, like the driver?

Fritz can't know about a transfer till after its 'found' at 4:05pm. Why doesn't LHO offer up the transfer in his pocket as proof?

There is no Cab ride until there is a bus transfer found at 4:05pm. But LHO supposedly says he transfers to other buses to get to Beckley.
Maybe he did transfer buses. Just as he said. Went ahead of Cecils bus to the Beckley bus? But that bus as I've pointed out has to stay in the right lane to make a stop at Houston and Elm. It then goes through the madhouse infront of TSBD.
Where as Cecil turns onto Houston to the viaduct. Gets as close as 6 blocks from 1026 N. Beckley and gets there faster.
Or you can catch a cab and have it drop you 5 blocks away, and have to walk six minutes back to 1026!!! WHT?
LHO did not take cabs or pay extra to drivers for driving past the address and adding cost to his travels. He did not take cabs. If he did then why not hail a cab anywhere along his route? Yes the only place to find a cab in downtown Dallas around noon is the cab stand at Greyhound Station four blocks and three minutes walk away at Lamar and Jackson..... oy vey
(Gives Whaley $1 for 95c fare so no change to add to our running total of change in Lee's pocket. Didn't some say Oswald claimed 85c? fare, close guess for never having riden in a cab)
But we all know, as Mr. Farley has pointed out, the cab logs don't jive. Whaley may have had a passenger to Beckley that day but he was back at the station before Oswald left the TSBD. 
So the cab is sunk before it leaves!
The bus is no better, because the rider supposedly gets off.
So how does a guy get to the Theater if he did not go by bus, cab, or trolley car, billy goat, or roller skate?
Craig tried to help the DPD out on this one. LOL!!
He may have rode a bus to Oak Cliff, his normal procedure. Was it the Beckley Bus?

"he told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley"

Terry Martin at February 2, 2015 at 3:34 PM

Apparently, the transfers were not cut on a diagonal, or with scizzors or anything like that.

I remembered using the DC transportation a lot when I was younger and remembered a mechanism the driver used to tear off a transfer. With the touch of a simple mechanism, the transfer booklet would be advanced to the new time position.

An example of the cutter. http://globeticket.mybigcommerce.com/transfer-cutter-2-notcher/

AWESOME TERRY!!!

I wonder if this is the regular cutter he was talkng to Ball about
http://globeticket.mybigcommerce.com/transfer-cutter-w-o-notcher/


Neither cutter works with a booklet upside down or in reverse,,,, sorry Cecil we can see the forest for the Lifton Trees.
Yes the cutters are exactly the evidence the WC did not want entered into the record, or the sample cut by Cecil for Ball.
So no ANGLED CUTS.
SO HOW DID CECIL MAKE A TRANSFER FOR 10:30?
It seems cutters would make a 10:15 transfer.
Maybe time to talk to a Globe rep.

So what's doing at all those other forums? 

Oh yeah. Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey... or if the limo came to a stop.... or what color lipstick the Babushka Lady wore... and how many pixels a lovelady must have before you can call him a man... (I reserve the right to randomly go Dylan on the reservation...) 

This has been a fascinating thread and I think I have got me head around most of it now.

My understanding is that the "receipt" for 004451 was torn off by McWatters, signed with his badge number and handed in before he started driving the bus. This explains why it is unpunched and whole.The "receipt" was kept by an employee of the bus company as a souvenir.

Some thoughts.

The "cutter" is really a "ripper". I actually think it would be capable of angled cuts. In fact it must have for the numbers on the ticket to work. How would you indicate 1.45 for instance?

I don't think Oswald had the ticket on him at the time of arrest. He was searched. Also he supposedly changed his clothes. Why would he keep a useless bus ticket?

The ticket looks in remarkable condtion for me, is it creased in any way? It and the shirt had been through quite a scuffle at the Theatre.

Did McWatters issue seven transfers for 004452 to 004458 before giving one to Oswald? Were there that many people on the bus would wanted to transfer?

If you didn't want to transfer I presume you just paid and sat down - no ticket?

Bookout says transfer was taken from Oswald at time of arrest. How does Bookout know this? Oswald told him.

So if HIS transfer was removed upon arrest at the theater then it would clear up why LHO said he left the TSBD and rode to his residence and asked for a transfer upon departure from the bus. And that officers at the time of arresting him took his transfer out of his pocket.

This would be correct for Fritz and LHO to discuss his bus trip as Fritz would know from arresting officers he had a transfer in his pocket. (Beckley)

Along the 'route' is there a need to swap LHO over to the Marsalis bus?
Was there a problem with the Beckley bus?
Were all the transfers gone? Haha
Would not the Beckley bus be the first bus to enter ones head when an address on Beckley comes up....or ...was there a timing problem there? There seemed to be no f'in hurry to get to Oak Cliff by LHO even if he did jump on and off of buses and into cabs. It cost time at every juncture. Walking up and down Elm when your a wanted KILLER! Yeah I don't think they thought this out very well down at the WC headquarters. No wait he would blend in with all the other average white males. No wait he would stand out with his manic look, ripped shirt, wild hair. No wait he would blend in with every bum on every bus in Dallas.
Short of a large package or a rifle no one would know LHO from Joe Blow. No one but Mary. Mary B., Bledsoe and Bledsoe.

Question for Lee Farley,
upon searching Oswald at the theater, his pockets would be felt, rummaged through, turned inside out.
That is how a search is conducted especially a cop killer, yes as said by Lee Farley no razor blades would escape such a search.
If one did, it would be bad for business, and you may end up getting another cop killed, or aiding the suspect to kill himself with a razor.
So yes the first thing is to frisk and pull out pockets. Check them before putting a suspect in a car.
Questions are who held the items from the intensive suspect search at the theater?... What were they?

Greg at February 3, 2015 at 3:13 AM

So what's doing at all those other forums? 

Oh yeah. Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey... or if the limo came to a stop.... or what color lipstick the Babushka Lady wore... and how many pixels a lovelady must have before you can call him a man... (I reserve the right to randomly go Dylan on the reservation...) 

Greg,

I was thinking precisely the same thing while I was reading this and the Purdy thread on BWF. Everyone keeps arguing the same things that have been argued for fifty years, it seems.

And yet, at this one lone little place, some sanity seems to permeate the proceedings.

I love this place!

Terry Martin at February 3, 2015 at 6:10 AM

Greg at February 3, 2015 at 3:13 AM

So what's doing at all those other forums? 

Oh yeah. Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey... or if the limo came to a stop.... or what color lipstick the Babushka Lady wore... and how many pixels a lovelady must have before you can call him a man... (I reserve the right to randomly go Dylan on the reservation...) 

Greg,

I was thinking precisely the same thing while I was reading this and the Purdy thread on BWF. Everyone keeps arguing the same things that have been argued for fifty years, it seems.

And yet, at this one lone little place, some sanity seems to permeate the proceedings.

I love this place!

The Group W Bench comes through - always!

From Curry interview in the PM Saturday (exact time not known)

From Fritz interview, PM Saturday (exact time unknown but probably after the Curry i/v above)

Boyd says some interesting things about the property. Page 8 the search
http//www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Boyd.pdf

A drawer with 'other stuff'.  Oh that is rich!!

But shells did not wind up on property inventory sheet that the transfer did.  No recollection of taking the bracelet, Stern asks. Page 18

Boyd slid past issues like what did Oswald say by saying he was right next to Oswald so he did not take notes, but did not listen either.
But did say 1026 N Beckley address was given withing the first five to ten minutes, before Hosty came into Fritz's office

Boyd said Lt. Baker told him the man who shot Tippit is in the interrogation room. (WTH no mention of LHO being a JFK suspect)


Let us not forget Scoggins works for the Dallas Transit Company just as Cecil McWatters does.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/pdf/WH3_Scoggins.pdf

And Whaley works for:
Mr. WHALEY. "City Transportation Company." 

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but all banded together in one cab company.

Page 19 Scoggins says its the same company as Whaley's, same dispatchers, but Whaley works downtown where the main building is 610 Akard and Scoggins is out in Oak Cliff parked by a knocked down sign and a bush as
his office...

Shitty Transport...er I mean CITY Transport was same as Dallas Transit Company.

Dallas Transit was controlled by Weinberg by '60
http://www.hawaii.edu/uhwo/clear/Pubs/RutledgeUnionism.html#P3

Dave Nate and Sydney Weinberg owners of Dallas Transit Company in Jack ruby's Club thanks to Schepps
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0040a.htm

Press asked Wade if this is the first time Dallas Transit Company had ever been used as a getaway car!  classic.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2170.pdf

LHO nearly gets job for Dallas Transit (page 6)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh10/pdf/WH10_Statman.pdf

The horse's mouth and his ticket cutter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCyC1J9G0rE

"The only two transfers I put out coming through town"...........!!!!!!!!!

John Mooney at February 3, 2015 at 3:44 AM

This has been a fascinating thread and I think I have got me head around most of it now.

My understanding is that the "receipt" for 004451 was torn off by McWatters, signed with his badge number and handed in before he started driving the bus. This explains why it is unpunched and whole.The "receipt" was kept by an employee of the bus company as a souvenir.

Some thoughts.

The "cutter" is really a "ripper". I actually think it would be capable of angled cuts. In fact it must have for the numbers on the ticket to work. How would you indicate 1.45 for instance?

I don't think Oswald had the ticket on him at the time of arrest. He was searched. Also he supposedly changed his clothes. Why would he keep a useless bus ticket?

The ticket looks in remarkable condtion for me, is it creased in any way? It and the shirt had been through quite a scuffle at the Theatre.

Did McWatters issue seven transfers for 004452 to 004458 before giving one to Oswald? Were there that many people on the bus would wanted to transfer?

If you didn't want to transfer I presume you just paid and sat down - no ticket?

Yes John! Pay fare and sit down, no transfer included. Or pay fare ask for either a transfer or a shoppers transfer and sit down.
I am asking how Cecil cut a transfer for Ball to show 10:30. 
1:45 is a ski slope. 45* angle...

Hang on.

Urban Dictionary: philadelphia bus transfer

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...bus+transfer

Oh never mind!!

Okay here it is:

Mr Farley was correct and many examples are out there.
It makes sense if it is torn at 1:45 you could not re-tear it to add time....
But if it was torn at 12:45 you could re-tear it to 1:00 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Houston-Transit-Co-transfer-Houston-TX-1948-/371235767012?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566f6042e4&rmvSB=true

Possibility exists LHO was issued a transfer got off Cecils bus went to use transfer on another bus but transfer was not accepted. Therefore he would KEEP the transfer, pay the fare and bring the transfer to the office for reimbursement/correction. See below:

Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey.

You mean you haven't heard, Greg? She did BOTH of them! One Oswald was simply not enough for the horny bitch. 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist not saying that.

John Mooney at February 3, 2015 at 7:11 AM

The horse's mouth and his ticket cutter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCyC1J9G0rE

 

"The only two transfers I put out coming through town"...........!!!!!!!!!

Thank you John!!!!!
OH CECIL!! You poor dumb bastard.


Transfer Booklet is seen in the correct position, front side up.
So if he gave out two transfers as he claims vehemently then either 004452 and 004453 should be "Oswalds" transfer.
(Notice he doesn't punch the transfer!)

Hasan Yusuf at February 3, 2015 at 8:37 AM

Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey.

You mean you haven't heard, Greg? She did BOTH of them! One Oswald was simply not enough for the horny bitch. 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist not saying that.

F'in dying over here!!!