REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of. McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back. Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit the Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil McWatters the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed.

The only way we "know" what booklet it is from is due to 004459 having a punch at Lakewood.

Sans Cecil punching a blank transfer for the authorities in the right spots to "show" them how it worked, we must accept Cecil had his punch on him and was not asked to give the punch to anyone that we know of.
Unless Cecil as he said pre-punched that book.
Therefore a transfer from that booklet is meaningless. It 'could' be torn or to show 1:00 at anytime, by anyone.
Only the tear at 1:00 is indicative of it being capable of being issued to LHO, he sure didn't ride the bus in from Lakewood center going to Marsalis.


I agree John:
" I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right,"
That is why Cecil calls it a ""Bus Schedule"" since it when he is scheduled into and out of stops not exactly a published bus schedule from Dallas Transit.
So at 11:52 is he is running up to Anita and spends 19 minutes driving through the area below Mockingbird, before he Lv's Lakewood at 12:11?

Ed Ledoux at February 5, 2015 at 5:13 AM

The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of. McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back. Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit the Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil McWatters the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed.

The only way we "know" what booklet it is from is due to 004459 having a punch at Lakewood.

Sans Cecil punching a blank transfer for the authorities in the right spots to "show" them how it worked, we must accept Cecil had his punch on him and was not asked to give the punch to anyone that we know of.
Unless Cecil as he said pre-punched that book.
Therefore a transfer from that booklet is meaningless. It 'could' be torn or to show 1:00 at anytime, by anyone.
Only the tear at 1:00 is indicative of it being capable of being issued to LHO, he sure didn't ride the bus in from Lakewood center going to Marsalis.


I agree John:
" I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right,"
That is why Cecil calls it a ""Bus Schedule"" since it when he is scheduled into and out of stops not exactly a published bus schedule from Dallas Transit.
So at 11:52 is he is running up to Anita and spends 19 minutes driving through the area below Mockingbird, before he Lv's Lakewood at 12:11?

Ed,

Looking at the words Cecil used during his testimony concerning this "schedule" I find it somewhat odd.

When he hands over CE 378 to Joseph Ball he says:

Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.

The matter of what it was, when it was from, and how it was used was not broached. "I will just say it is a bus schedule." Why use this phrase? Why does he "just say" it is a bus schedule? What else couldhe have said it was? Just an interesting turn of phrase for me...

In addition, not a single exhibit during McWatters testimony was deemed a McWATTERS EXHIBIT. Each one designated a CE number but not specifically identified to his testimony like many of the exhibits from other witnesses throughout their testimony.

Greg is right about one thing. We're trying to further prove something didn't happen that we know didn't happen but there is so much in the testimony that still has rich pickings as far as I'm concerned. For sure, the more I read McWatters' testimony the more I feel sorry for him because he is just talking shit due to the fact that he is just making stuff up out of thin air. They certainly had him over a barrel. Only Senator Cooper comes out of this pile of excrement with any part of his dignity intact because if it wasn't for his aggressive questioning we certainly wouldn't have Milton Jones being named during the debacle.

Joseph Ball is a fucking disgrace of human being.

Ed Ledoux at February 5, 2015 at 4:50 AM

Lee Farley at February 3, 2015 at 4:10 PM

You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.  Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was much further east than Munger.  This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.  

This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane.
I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map. Last street is Anita.
He say's so in his testimony.
Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered.
Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita.
This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town into the neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track back to the Lakewood shopping center.
Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he does his sign changes/punches, etc.
So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird?
Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before that if you hopped on at Anita if that is a stop.

I'm gonna get my damn diploma if it damn well kills me.

What are the numbers referring to in the mileage section? A.M. has him travelling 35.8 miles. Bullshit if he only made one run from LAKEWOOD to MARSALIS before 1PM. The distance from ANITA @ CAMBRIA in LAKEWOOD to PENTAGON @ MARSALIS in OAK CLIFF is approximately 15 miles following his route give or take the odd mile. They have his P.M. mileage down as 73.4 miles. Fuck that. There is no way these numbers make any sense to me. I'm sure you can help me out here but I'm lost on his PAY HOURS too.

WTF are 800 PAY HOURS?

It means an 8 hour day. 8 hours 00 minutes.

Colin Crow at February 5, 2015 at 8:13 AM

It means an 8 hour day. 8 hours 00 minutes.

Cheers, Colin. Simple. However, he did not work 8.00 hours on this route. The more I look at this 1213 "bus schedule" the more concerns I have.

We do still have the issue with the mileage because if McWatters finished on this bus route at 2:11PM then he most certainly did not do 73.4 miles during that afternoon and during his shift between 11:52 and 12:58 (let's say this was his AM shift seeing as how he says everything on a transfer up until 1:00PM was AM) he most certainly did not complete 35.8 miles during ONE run from LAKEWOOD to the end of MARSALIS.

We could try and short-circuit years of intense study be going to the Dallas Transit Company and asking them if they can shed any light on the evidence taken by the commssion?

I have asked the two bus drivers I know. Unfortunately they both drive school buses and don't do these types of runs. One did say he'll see what he can find out for me, but I think he was talking about trying to get hold of company policies and manuals, which probably won't help much here.

Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 10:33 AM

 

Is the above document confusing anybody else?

Confusing no.
Annoying YES.

It is the 23. LAKEWOOD and 30. MARSALIS run.

There is a street it crosses called N. Munger Blvd.  (Munger Ave in downtown runs paralel to the route. Munger ave nearly intersects Munger Blvd)
Munger is not a published run.
There is no reverse to a MUNGER run.
Marsalis is the reverse of Lakewood.
The reverse of all the other runs are listed.
Munger is not.
The only place Munger as a run exists is the timesheet Cecil provided.
V C Snider says it, the Munger run, is identical to the 30 Marsalis run.
On Cecils sheet it shows "Marsalis-Ramona" and Elmwood-Munger"
So coud Elmwood and Munger must be reverse. Not so, I found Elmwood map and it has no reverse run like all the others.
Munger is an fictitious run name, in that the Lakewood-Marsalis run goes to the Munger Place district around Munger Blvd between Gaston and Columbia.     http://mungerplace.com/

Lee Farley at February 3, 2015 at 5:15 PM

John Mooney at February 3, 2015 at 4:41 PM

Lee Farley at February 3, 2015 at 4:10 PM

You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.  Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was much further east than Munger.  This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.  

No problem Lee.

 

I don't think Oswald had a transfer on him when arrested.

 

But there's a million holes in the official story.

Looking back over the time sheet and I'm sat scratching my head completely confused.  Anyone know what this thing is?  What is it for?  Who fills it in?  Why?  

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)

Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.

Mr. BALL - That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is correct.

Before describing this as "just...a bus schedule" Cecil said "...that number there is my run number right here on my card."

This is a timesheet Cecil would fill out and hand in.

Does the mileage work out....lets see?

He drives Lamar to BRENDENWOOD (not Endenwood, no such st.) 5.2 miles and 15min
Proceeds to Wendover,  2.3 miles
To Ellsworth 1.5 miles
WEST (not East) to Cambria .4miles
North to Anita  and back to Sperry .3 miles 
Sperry to Gaston 1.9 miles
Lakewood to Lamar 4.8 miles

about 17 miles for the trip.

He calls it 35 miles....which is exactly double! So he drives it twice?

He then does his PM routes from Lakewood Shopping Center to downtown and then south to Pentagon St. and back to Lakewood center.

He writes down 75 miles.

Let me guess, the actual mileage is half of 75......


What does that mean other than the bus goes for another complete trip....but that is not on his timesheet? His last stop was Paulus at 2:20 on the way back in from Lakewood. Looks like an 'express' back, where he is not picking up passengers along the way, except at the one stop.
Is this sheet filled out COMPLETELY for all his runs? Or does the run continue same as prevoius columns in the timesheet. 2:20 is two hours from 12:20 his first stop at Paulus.
Did the timesheet keep going after 2:20 Paulus?
Where did he go from Paulus?
Did Cecil kick everyone off at St.Paul and drive 1213 to the depot/bus garage?

He says he does another run on another bus.

McWatters finished his Marsalis St. bus run after 3:30 p.m., returning to his starting point in Lakewood by the same route in which he left. He went home and spent some time watching TV. It was at this time that he saw the face of Oswald broadcast. If Oswald was on the bus, he was not then recognized by McWatters.

Towards the end of the afternoon he goes back to work - this time driving the Piedmont line. The sun had already set when he came to the bus stop at Dallas police headquarters at 6:10 p.m November 22, 1963.

McWatters is taken through the main entrance and up to the third floor. He even sees Oswald in the hallway. (Weston, "Marsalis Bus No. 1213", The Fourth Decade, March 1995 p. 7; paraphrasing an article by Dr. Jerry Rose "Double Agent Unmasked: A reconstruction, The Third Decade, Sept. 1987 p. 13)             http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/24th_Issue/mcwatters.html

Interesting part is where it is written on the timesheet  WATCH OUT FOR KIDS So OakCliff -School    (With Arrow to Marsalis box)   at        2:35   
What is he doing driving by the South Oak Cliff High School on Marsalis at 2:35 when the kids would be getting out of school?

It can not mean 1:11 at Marsalis look out for kids ...at lunch break... too late for that...he is in the area around 1pm from his timesheet.
Did SOCHS classes end at 2:30-2:35?


SO!
At 3:30 he is finishing up AFTER doing another Lakewood Run!!
This fits the TIME and MILEAGE!!!

The timesheet should be filled out for FOUR columns and he Leaves Lakewood at 12:11 is back at Lakewood and leaves again at 2:11 and he would be back at Lakewood at 3:11 !!!

This is the problem with Cecil and his "Bus Schedule"......... Poor dumb Cecil getting played or he is a player....I mean this second run took him to Police Headquarters daily for what 30 years? I'm sure some of the cops would know Cecil by name. Maybe Wells?

Working this backwards in my mind it has to be a call from Porter that gets the DPD thinking of a bus ride


Taking the transfer at face value it can not be LHO's if he got off the bus downtown as it should be torn 12:45.
The transfer supposedly found on LHO was torn 1:00 and good till 1:15
So LHO got his transfer at 1pm simply based on the physical evidence. And that would rule out LHO from the Tippit murder.  He can't be on a bus in town getting a transfer AND shooting a police officer in Oak Cliff.

So there is a problem....authorites need to get Cecil to fudge the meaning of the tear on 004459 at the 1pm mark
Up till 12:45 is AM said Cecil.
Cecil did not say 12:45 WAS AM!
He said up to.
Want me to F'in quote the be-atch!!!!
"we consider up to 12:45 a.m."
SO 12:45 could be torn and his pre punched PM transfers would be just fine!!!!!!!!!


Oh this is a good day tater!

As a famous football coach used to say..."played good... done fine" 

And yes... it should be safe to say that the Porter Bledsoe call... which, unless I've totally lost my way with this after several years worth of discussions on it (possible!), was really just to relay his mother's run in with Milton Jones.  

Prior to that, they had the station wagon as the only lead to the "escape".

In other words, it is before 12:45

If he ran the route twice (and it now seems likely), that could explain why more than two transfers were issued from the ticket book. 004452 and 004453 first run... 004454 to 004458 second run.

I still contend they took the one off the top and called it Oswald's.

The moral of the story is never give up looking at these pieces of evidence.  They hold many secrets and I'm sure there's more to find.

Thanks for reviving this topic, Ed.

Greg at February 6, 2015 at 12:48 AM

As a famous football coach used to say..."played good... done fine" 

And yes... it should be safe to say that the Porter Bledsoe call... which, unless I've totally lost my way with this after several years worth of discussions on it (possible!), was really just to relay his mother's run in with Milton Jones.  

Prior to that, they had the station wagon as the only lead to the "escape".

Thanks Greg!
YES! Reporting Milton Jones whom Mary mistook or mis-something for LHO a supposed former tenant.
Yes can't have accomplices driving LHO away from a murder.
...although someone did drive LHO to the murder scene...


Another thing that bugged me was Cecil saying in the video that it was the DPD that figured out the transfer was from him and his book of transfers...wouldn't Cecil be the one to figure that out.
Seems he is laying any blame for such an id of the transfer being his and Oswalds is solely a matter for the Police to determine.

"Police Identified The Transfer As The One um.., That They Got On Oswald When He Was Arrested"

Cecil is saying the transfer he gave to the Muphy St rider is the one they got on Oswald when he was arrested.
Not that they told him they took it from LHO a couple hours ago in the holding room just before his last showup.


Dallas bus fare 23 cents for three mile radius of downtown
You can add a zone for 5 cents.
There is also a "shoppers bus" just downtown for 5 cents.  (6 cents in summer)            
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1168.pdf


Wish I could find those old route maps? I found them on a long nights search but never bookmarked the tab. Don't know what the heck it was I was searching for when I found them. They were Dallas bus routes showing all the routes listed on the transfer and more!
They are large maps that you have to scroll down to follow the bus run. Seem like they were able to be sized smaller but they had to load each time you adjusted them.... very antiquated map display I'd say from the 1980's
They were old 60's or even '63 route maps.
They showed all the Named routes which did not include Munger. lol
Ramona, Lakewood, Elmwood, Vickery, Beckley, etc. 
Could be helpful. Basically just showed routes by name, what the paired routes were: ie Lakewood Marsalis or the reverse routes and route numbers.

Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 3:01 AM

The moral of the story is never give up looking at these pieces of evidence.  They hold many secrets and I'm sure there's more to find.

Thanks for reviving this topic, Ed.

Thanks Lee!
Good catch on the exhibits.
I agree with our assesment of Cecil's statements, there are more to be gleened

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there and they told me what happened.

Mr. BALL - What did they tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.

Hmmm,
How the heck would they know that, did the DPD run the transfer down to the Dallas Transit Office between 4:05 and 6:15 and get Snider, Routt, Cook to compare the punch and then give them Cecils name and next route. Then they go back to DPD tell Wells whom has Dhority run out and grab Cecil?
Please explain timeline of  the DPD figuring out transfer FOR Cecil , to me,....anyone?
I'm serious how did that part work officially?

Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. MCWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don’t recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.

As you've pointed out this was Meagher's turning point where she knew Cecil did not have Mary Bledsoe on his bus. At least for the earlier run as we now know he made another run through town that day and at that time things would be roped off, conversations would be different, etc as she describes.
She took the later run!!!!
She did take Cecil's bus, but later on, when she heard and saw what she witnessed out the bus window turning on Houston, mixed with TV and news reports even later. She would have boarded at 2:36pm at St. Paul and Elm. and been near TSBD by 2:50
What would have been at Houston and Elm at 2:50+????
photographer William Allen. This image shows Dallas Police officers on the north east corner of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. Police officers have used rope and vehicles to separate the crowd from the building.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184805/

12:51, 190 (Sergeant S.Q. Beliah), We need some ropes here at Main and Houston. We are getting a terrific crowd.
Dispatcher We are going to send a Fire Department Rescue Unit with a lot of rope to that location, 12:54 p.m.



Mrs. BLEDSOE - "Oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off that around where the President was killed, shot, and we were the first car that come around there, and then all of us were talking about the man, and we were looking up to see where he was shot and looking---and then they had one man and taking him already got him in jail, and we got----"Well, I am glad they found him."

This is around 2:50 guaranteed!!

Now wouldn't a old lady like Mary have a shoppers transfer redeemed in a store for a free return ride? A ride she would take free on Marsalis bus at 2:36pm.

I have a niggle. Might be nothing more than a genuine error made based upon the fallibility of human memory but it could be something quite different...

...because I've just re-read Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement and he states the bus he was on that afternoon "...arrived at approximately 12:10PM or 12:15PM."

McWatters bus allegedly arrived at Milton Jones' bus stop outside the Capri Theater at 12:36PM. That's a big time difference when waiting for a bus. There was a bus due at the same stop just before 12:10PM that day which would get to Houston & Elm prior to 12:15PM (the spot where McWatters originally said Jones got on the bus!!!!!

Somewhat interesting.

Did McWatters bus initially get stopped on Elm Street because of the shooting or simply because of the parade itself? Was he really driving the 12:40PM LAMAR to MARSALIS BUS or what are the chances he was driving the 12:10PM LAMAR to MARSALIS bus?

If it's the second one what does that do to our new narrative? Does it stay the same or does it change anything? Pre-stamped transfers?

Okay, slight change of direction.

Hypothetical scenario #1:

Roy Milton Jones gets on the 12:10PM LAMAR to MARSALIS bus at HAWKINS & ELM or St. PAUL & ELM. The bus gets jammed in traffic as it slowly descends ELM St because it has been blocked for the parade. JONES gets off the bus 10 minutes later, realising the Presidential PARADE is taking place, the bus is going nowhere and he decides to see it. He asks for a TRANSFER and he receives one with a LAKEWOOD punch cut to the time of 12:30.

JONES goes to a convenient spot on the route (possibly somewhere on ELM St.) and watches the parade. This is why he knew the President had been shot in the temple and it is from JONES that McWatters later finds out the President had been shot. Remember what McWATTERS said to the elderly lady (written in his earliest affidavit) that if "she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he [Jones] had told me [McWatters] the President had been shot in the temple." This giveaway line would change dramatically during McWatters WC testimony.

Once the parade and the shooting is over, rumours are circulating through the crowd, MILTON JONES heads back to ELM St. and sees CECIL McWATTERS bus. He gets on just before HOUSTON street (as per McWatters' same-day affidavit) and tells him about the President being shot in the head.

Somehow the DPD department found Roy Milton Jones either Friday night or Saturday and secured that transfer. Not difficult if he was a regular on the MARSALIS BUS and McWatters remembered where he dropped him off (BROWNLEE on Marsalis). Sherlock Holmes not required for this one.

Once the DPD has custody of the TRANSFER the quickly and easily change it from a 12:30 TRANSFER to a 1:00PM transfer.

With this new frame read McWatters testimony and see if it enlightens any of it.

Addendum to Scenario #1:

McWatters was kept at City Hall until after midnight on 11/22 while the DPD went and secured Roy Milton Jones and the transfer.

We can see that when he was being interviewed McWatters was telling Detective C. N. Dhority that he had let the guy off on Marsalis because it is in his hadnwritten affidavit BUT IS CROSSED OUT:

Scenario #1 Variation.

McWatters was driving the 12:10PM bus that Jones was on, before JONES quickly departed asking for a transfer.  Twenty minutes later he got back on the same bus after the parade/shooting because the bus was sat in the same spot (or had moved a block or two) for at least 20 minutes.

With this scenario variation the Lee Harvey Oswald character IS ALL Roy Milton Jones.  JONES got on the bus.  Stayed on the bus for a few blocks. Asked for a transfer and got off the bus.  But the difference is JONES reboarded the exact same bus after the parade.

McWatters himself said he was caught in traffic on Elm Street for 15-20 minutes but this delay was always framed around the aftermath of the shooting when the reality was he was possibly caught in the traffic for 15-20 minutes by the parade.

She's Got a Ticket To Ride... but she don't care.  

Could be Cecil mentioned something to another passenger at 2:50, which Mary heard as Cecil drove a guy a few blocks close to Lamar, whom got off and gave him a transfer.

She would not know details.

Mr. BALL - Now, had the bus gone as far as Lamar Street, when Oswald got off?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes. No; I think before we got to Lamar Street.

Mr. BALL - How far?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---

Mr. BALL - Close to Lamar?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, close.

Mr. BALL - How close?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL - Within a half block, or block?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; within a block.

Mr. BALL - About a block from Lamar, you think?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL - It was approaching Lamar, wasn't it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.

Interesting that the lot at 621 N. Marsalis ended up in Bill Knox's hands.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/local-politics/20110628-john-wiley-price-bought-land-from-county_s-most-active-bail-bond-lawyer-while-serving-on-oversight-board.ece
What did Porter do?

Mr. BALL - When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd seen Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - When I got home, first thing I did I went next door and told them the President had been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed."

Known telephone number of Ruby's / Al Schroll at 511 N. Marsalis is close to Mary's

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=521253

March/April 1962 Ruby and George Senator have been living at the Carousel Club since November 1961. They move to 500 South Marsalis apartment, and Senator stays there with Ruby until leaving in August 1962. Senator says that he worked at the Carousel as a doorman from March until August 1962 Vol. 14, p. 188.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/jfk9/hscv9g.htm

Other neighbors of Mary:
Paul M. Knight, Sr. 723 N. Marsalis

Elbert Maurice "Monk" Baker  (DPD)
500 N. Marsalis

I think this thread has a reached a threshold where pinning is warranted. The effort and results from Ed and Lee are outstanding.

Notwithstanding that others before us and beside us have contributed to shredding the official case, the work done by ROKCERs stands alone at the forefront of that body of work.

We have to get it to a wider audience. Pinning threads like this helps, however little that may be. It is through our projects that we can make much bigger pushes.