REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

To follow up on Helen Markham's bus I would need the route tables for the buses she would have taken.
Those buses are:

Sunset Bus #10
Hampton Bus #11

No doubt she wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Still an outside chance she watched her son shoot Tippit.

Like its predecessor on the Education Forum, this is an absolutely fascinating thread. Well done, to all those who have contributed.

The situation as I see it can be summarised as follows:

Mary Bledose didn't get on the bus until after it had crossed the Trinity into Oak Cliff. Her hazy recollections (she seems to have been mentally impaired) refer to Roy Milton Jones's 'grinning' and observations of Dealey Plaza after the bus had turned round and headed back through central Dallas. The problems with her identification of the torn shirt are self-evident.

Cecil McWatters initially believed Roy Milton Jones was the suspect DPD were interested in. Even when giving his testimony months later, he seems fixated on Jones when it is clear he is being asked to talk about Oswald. The confusion in his mind doesn't seem to have been cleared up until well into the hearing.

The key issue is, of course, the bus transfer. Ostensibly, it is the only hard evidence supporting an unassisted Oswald getaway. Yet, although supposedly sealed in an evidence envelope at 4.05 pm, McWatters identified it hours later as one he had handed out at lunch-time.

The obvious conclusion is that the bus transfer was planted. There is a natural temptation to deduce that this would have involved coercing McWatters into punching a fake bus transfer on the evening of November 22nd.

However, I am intrigued by the photographs taken by Stuart L. Reed. Using Google Earth, both pictures of buses on Elm Street appear to have been taken from roughly the same spot (between Record and Market). It shows remarkable presence of mind to stand a couple of hundred yards from the scene where the US president had been assassinated and take pictures of traffic for several minutes. It is even more remarkable that Mr. Reed was present at the Texas Theater to capture an iconic photograph of Oswald's arrest barely one hour later.

I am somewhat perplexed by the concept of 'bus transfers'. In the UK, should a bus be stuck in traffic and you wish to get off, there is no refund or transfer and never has been. Regardless, if we take Cecil McWatters' words at face value, just how would Dallas Police know by looking at 004459 that it was issued at Lamar Street? That is, unless they were assured previously that it had been.

What if McWatters was telling the truth about his issue of bus transfers (even although the procedures seem rather strange) and that 004459 was a crucial part of the plot to frame Oswald?

In other words, a young man who could plausibly be mistaken for Oswald was instructed to get on a bus heading to Oak Cliff shortly after the assassination. He got off a couple of blocks later making sure he had the transfer, which subsequently (and probably quickly) found its way into police hands.

That's a pretty neat summation, Redfern.

There is still fertile ground to be ploughed on this issue. To use a phrase that John used to describe the transfer system the spokes of the wheel certainly protrude out from the bus and taxi journey into other areas of the case. The dominoes continue to fall.

I have some key areas that I believe need some focus and attention.

Was there a concerted effort to make it appear Oswald was aboard a bus by instructing certain individuals to be in place so that "evidence" was available or was this story made up on the hop after information was provided to the DPD through an incident of mistaken identity?

Where was Oswald living on 11/22? I am absolutley convinced that he did not live at, or ever step foot inside, 1026 North Beckley and, therefore, his accomodation during this period of time is currently unknown. Greg has a hunch that he was actually living at the Paine house throughout the entire period in question which is plausible. We also have to leave on the table the possibility that he was living at 621 North Marsalis with Mary Bledsoe during this entire period and he did not leave his rented room at this property less than a week after moving in. Another possibility is that he was living at the West Neely house in the lead up to the assassination because, after the hard work that Greg and others have put into looking at the evidence relating to this residence, we certainly know that something dodgy was going on concerning its occupants. The balance of evidence strongly suggests the Oswald's did not live there in late '62 and early '63. The William Whaley taxi ride certainly marries up to a drop off point much closer to Neely Street than any of the other properties in the Oak Cliff area and some of the Secret Service timing exercises used Neely Street as a fixed point when timing the taxi journey. The question is why?

Now I know that Oswald did not take that cab, and I know that Oswald was not on that bus. This is a categorical certainty that is beyond doubt. If the evidence we have amassed was presented to a jury in a trial there is no way that anyone in their right mind could not see what was really going on. The junior counsellors on the Warren Commission knew this too and, I might add, they knew exactly where the details of the real plot lay. They knew what was really going on. Unfortunately, all the hard graft that the junior guys performing the groundwork resulted in was to provide the more senior lawyers and Commission members to opportunity to block the inquiry at the necessary points and keep a lid on the cover up. How do I know this? Simple. Burt Griffin and Leon Hubbert produced this staff memo for the attention of serial-liars Belin and Ball at the point in time that Whaley, McWatters, Markham and Bledsoe were being prepared for testimony:

What did Belin and Ball do with this information? Fuck all. They took it and they buried it. They prepared their witnesses in such a way as to avoid the uncomfortable questions being raised by the likes of Griffin, Hubert, and Redlich. They hid information. They swerved information. They made testimony over complicated by asking convoluted and bizarre questions. They ignored things.  They didn’t ask the right questions; the simple ones. They stopped witnesses dead in their tracks. They lead them. They readied many of them to perjure themselves. This was the most dishonest investigation that took place in the 20th century and when reading the staff memos the level of fraud slaps you in the face.

Hubert and Griffin knew, absolutely knew, that Crafard was involved in this thing and instead of being treated as a suspect, as per Hubert and Redlich’s allegations, Crafard was instead treated like some sort of star witness against his former boss, Jack Ruby.

Another person of interest who we know very little about is the son of Mary Bledsoe, Porter Bledsoe.  Whenever I think about him my spidey-sense goes haywire.  I'm always wary of witnesses who were completely ignored.  Porter Bledsoe was never officially interviewed by any law enforcement group, yet, he was the one we are led to believe made the phone call to the DPD on the afternoon of 11/22 to tell them about his mother's interaction with a "maniacal" laughing boy.  He also sold "evidence" connected to the case in the form of the calendar page containing Oswald's name when he was a tenant at his mother's house.  The DPD and FBI saw fit to interview the guy Porter sold the calendar to, Mike Neibur, but couldn't find the time to have a chat with Porter himself.  We can have a tendency to think of Porter as a kid given how he is described in Mary's testimony but he was a grown man in his 40's.  There is more to Porter than we'll ever be able to discover.  I also believe the "dilapidated house" that was originally an "estate" that Harry Olsen was protecting could possibly be Mary Bledsoe's house and if true we have a jigsaw puzzle that needs putting together with this in mind.

Lee,

I admit to accepting (perhaps blindly) the official story concerning Oswald residing at 1026 North Beckley. However, the arguments you have presented in recent years mean that there are nagging doubts. I shall have to plough through all the relevant information to re-evaluate just how reliable the Warren narrative is on this issue. There are certainly connections between 1026 and DPD personnel that have been brushed over down the years (as has the story concerning a visit by Ruby).

With regard to any plot to frame Oswald, how essential would it have been to have him residing in Oak Cliff (at least during week-days)?

An other angle that concerns me about Oswald never setting foot in 1026 is that it ramps up the number of people who'd have to lie. Again, I'd have to check, but from memory several people who stayed there described him in detail.

Just how reliable would they turn out to be? Earlene Roberts put her foot in it within days by blurting out the story of the police car at 1 pm. Both her and Gladys Johnson gave affidavits speaking of a further visit by DPD before Oswald was officially identified and well before police supposedly knew of the North Beckley address.

Nevertheless, given the lies elsewhere in the Warren version, nothing can be taken for granted.  

As a possible side-note, I am convinced Oswald changed his trousers. As for his shirt, it is possible he changed this too - he had one that was similar in appearance.

Returning to the getaway, the angle that struck me about McWatters was this exchange:

Mr. BALL - What did they tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.

I don't believe anyone other than the bus driver would have been able to deduce the transfer was punched at Lamar Street.

Certain officers within DPD seemed absolutely positive about this evidence and it was sent to Washington in the early hours. If we are to believe Jesse Curry's words on TV, he wasn't apprised of this information until well into the Saturday.

Larry Crafard is obviously worthy of several threads to himself. While it suited the Warren lawyers to cover up any role he had in the assassination, the sheer length of his testimony raises eyebrows. What on earth was that all about?

I admit to accepting (perhaps blindly) the official story concerning Oswald residing at 1026 North Beckley. However, the arguments you have presented in recent years mean that there are nagging doubts.

I for one am convinced that it was a complete crock. 

Redfern at February 11, 2015 at 7:40 AM

Lee,

I admit to accepting (perhaps blindly) the official story concerning Oswald residing at 1026 North Beckley. However, the arguments you have presented in recent years mean that there are nagging doubts. I shall have to plough through all the relevant information to re-evaluate just how reliable the Warren narrative is on this issue. There are certainly connections between 1026 and DPD personnel that have been brushed over down the years (as has the story concerning a visit by Ruby).

With regard to any plot to frame Oswald, how essential would it have been to have him residing in Oak Cliff (at least during week-days)?

An other angle that concerns me about Oswald never setting foot in 1026 is that it ramps up the number of people who'd have to lie. Again, I'd have to check, but from memory several people who stayed there described him in detail.

Just how reliable would they turn out to be? Earlene Roberts put her foot in it within days by blurting out the story of the police car at 1 pm. Both her and Gladys Johnson gave affidavits speaking of a further visit by DPD before Oswald was officially identified and well before police supposedly knew of the North Beckley address.

Nevertheless, given the lies elsewhere in the Warren version, nothing can be taken for granted.  

As a possible side-note, I am convinced Oswald changed his trousers. As for his shirt, it is possible he changed this too - he had one that was similar in appearance.

 

Returning to the getaway, the angle that struck me about McWatters was this exchange:

 

Mr. BALL - What did they tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.

I don't believe anyone other than the bus driver would have been able to deduce the transfer was punched at Lamar Street.

Certain officers within DPD seemed absolutely positive about this evidence and it was sent to Washington in the early hours. If we are to believe Jesse Curry's words on TV, he wasn't apprised of this information until well into the Saturday.

Larry Crafard is obviously worthy of several threads to himself. While it suited the Warren lawyers to cover up any role he had in the assassination, the sheer length of his testimony raises eyebrows. What on earth was that all about?

If any of us can crack the 1026 North Beckley nut we can all pack up and go home because it will be job done, Redfern.

There is absolutley no credible evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald ever lived at that house other than the small box of stuff that law enforcement pulled out of it. Evidence that could have very easily been swapped out with the person's stuff that was actually living there. Why were Hubert and Griffin so convinced that Larry Crafard might have been in William Whaley's cab? I'm sure they didn't pull it out of their backside. In the staff memo they produced, and it wasn't the first they produced that named Larry Crafard as a possible suspect, they link Whaley's knowledge of Ruby together with their own knowledge that Crafard had been mistaken for Oswald by a couple of dozen people. These men weren't idiots and neither were their superiors up the chain of command. They knew the bus ride was bogus and they knew the taxi ride was bogus and they had a handle on the best fit alternative that did fit the evidence they were reviewing. Not one lead concerning the suspicions they raised was followed up. None of the information they said they wanted from Bledsoe, Roberts, Whaley, and McWatters was collected either through interview or testimony. These junior staff lawyers knew in March 1964 what we now know a half a century later. Their work counted for nought because the seniors used their info to make sure how to continue covering shit up.

EDIT: Actually Griffin was as much of a bullshitter as the rest of them because I've just thought on that he was part of the crew that interviewed Earl RUBY and, after writing the staff memo with Hubert, actually delivered some of the WORST questioning that exists in the entire testimony record. Stuff like this:

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Larry Crafard, did you pay him any money?

Mr. RUBY. Larry Crafard, I think we just gave him a few dollars, $5 maybe because he was broke when he was living on the road, he didn’t have a dime, so I think I gave him some money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Larry incidentally contact you any time while you were in Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; I wish he would have, because he hitchhiked all the way down there, and I was driving at the same time, but he didn’t know I lived there, and we--

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he notified to come to the trial?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If I remember correctly he came on his own. He just thought that when all this came out about, you know, Jack getting him to take that picture of Earl Warren, he had the camera or something, I forgot the full details myself, but he is the one who took the picture, right, if I am not mistaken, and he just thought he should come down to help Jack as much as he possibly could. Could I go a little further?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really want to pry into this unless this is something you care to reveal.

Mr. RUBY. The most important thing is coming up now; I mean one of the most important things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I do want to reflect this -- that I don’t want to push you into saying things, talking about subjects that you would rather not talk about, and I realize that this is one of them.

I mean, WTF?  You really couldn't make this shit up could you?

My major issue when trying to make sense of this case is the enormity of it. Each segment that you feel you have a handle on suddenly bears a relationship with something else that exists in the record and the segment suddenly balloons. For instance, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, the owners of 1026 North Beckley, are dodgy as fuck. My research into the Marion Meharg story leads into a series of nuisance phone calls that began plaguing the property in the months after the assassination. Soon after these phone calls Earlene Roberts left her employment there. The caller was asking about a David Miller who, the caller claimed, lived there prior to the assassination and was "Oswalds' friend." Arthur Johnson was overheard talking about this with someone in a coffee shop and was specifically asking the person he was with whether he had ever heard of a David LEON Miller. When the FBI interviewed Johnson he claimed this conversation never took place. Interestingly, David Miller was a pseudonym for David Yaras. The phone calls were put down to a bitterly jealous and somewhat obsessive Marion Meharg who was estranged from his wife and sons after she left him for someone called David Miller whom she married. No interview with Mrs. Miller exists but the FBI did interview her mother who painted Meharg as a deranged lunatic. Coincidently, the mother's name was Bernice CLICK. By another coincidence the neighbours of Arthur and Gladys Johsons were called the Millers. NEVER INTERVIEWED. Not even interviewed when it came to finding out which neighbour had been overheard having a conversation about Jack Ruby parking on their driveway when he went to visit Oswald at the 1026 property.

If an Oswald was living at 1026 North Beckley then it wasn't our Lee Oswald and it certainly wasn't a CIA doppelganger raised from birth to be an Oswald twin. It was someone simply pretending to be him and this is where, I believe, Larry Crafard comes in. It's no coincidence that Jack Ruby met with Bertha Cheek, Earlene Roberts sister, on November 18th, 1963.

I'll say one thing about some of the people who stayed at 1026 North Beckley and were interviewed. They should have gotten their stories straight before trying to convince us about Oswald's residence there. I will not accept that two Mr. LEEs were living at that property at the same time - Mr. O. H. Lee and Mr. H. (LEON) Lee. I do not accept Mr. Herbert Leon Lee's story about sharing a room with James Watson because when James Watson was interviewed he never mentions Mr. Herbert Leon Lee. Mr Herbert Leon Lee says he doesn't remember Lee Oswald living there but that James Watson might and try as I might, I have a really hard time believing that Mr. Herbert Leon Lee left being a floor layer after 30 years to become a Police Officer.

There is a much bigger story to 1026 North Beckley and we haven't yet uncovered it.

You are right about how the police knew it was a transfer from LAMAR. They wouldn't. But as we see in the McWatters testimony it appears that the DPD were telling him what happened rather than the other way around.

You guys have well and truly debunked (fuck I hate that word) the bus story. It is totally fabricated. All the obvious circumstantial evidence has been challenged and dismissed beyond any reasonable doubt. Any fair minded person can see that for themselves. You really can't afford to believe anything they told us after this.

This thread has been fucking awesome. I just wanted to also congratulate everyone who has contributed. You don't get this type of research anywhere else. This to me is groundbreaking stuff.

Indeed, you don't get this type of research anywhere else. ROKC is first and foremost about solid, evidence-based research and as with Sean Murphy's Prayer Man thread, when you see it unfold, it's a beautiful thing to watch.

To Ed, Lee and the other contributors, I tip my hat to you.

Beowulf at February 11, 2015 at 8:57 PM

So if not by the McWatters bus and Whaley taxi then how did Oswald end up In Oak Cliff in time for his arrest at Texas Theatre? I doubt he had time to walk there from TSBD so did he leave the scene by another bus, by taxi the whole way, by someone he knew with a car (a station wagon, say) or by hitching a ride with a stranger? I think that boxes the compass of possibilities.

You forgot clicking his heels together and wishing.

It is a conundrum. 

Getting a lift, because there are witnesses to it, would seem the most plausible. But that would tend to suggest he was involved somehow - and I don't believe he was (although there may be a scenario whereby he is picked up but is still a complete unknowing patsy...)

The problem with the other options is lack of anyone coming forward... yet in reality, no one did re McWatter's bus and Whaley's cab either. Any phone call from Porter to the cops had to be about Milton Jones...

I think I just talked myself into the clicking of heels getaway theory....!

Stan Dane at February 11, 2015 at 4:09 PM

Indeed, you don't get this type of research anywhere else. ROKC is first and foremost about solid, evidence-based research and as with Sean Murphy's Prayer Man thread, when you see it unfold, it's a beautiful thing to watch.

 

To Ed, Lee and the other contributors, I tip my hat to you.

 

Hear, hear!

Beowulf at February 11, 2015 at 8:57 PM

So if not by the McWatters bus and Whaley taxi then how did Oswald end up In Oak Cliff in time for his arrest at Texas Theatre? I doubt he had time to walk there from TSBD so did he leave the scene by another bus, by taxi the whole way, by someone he knew with a car (a station wagon, say) or by hitching a ride with a stranger? I think that boxes the compass of possibilities.

Brings us back to Roger Craig.

This is going from memory but anyway......

Early on the DPD seemed to accept the Craig station wagon theory. It could be Oswald, the shooter or nothing of importance. If it was Oswald and he did not want to reveal an "accomplice" could he have introduced a "bus" scenario in order to protect the driver. At some point the order came down from on high to pour cold water on any thought of conspiracy. Hence Craig must be wrong. Oswald has to be the only person involved. So they go with the bus story. McWatters is selected and a transfer ticket added as icing. The problem is now one of timing.....he needs to be at North Beckley by 1pm at the latest. A cab is introduced.....Whally inducted......Oswald actually goes along with the story during interrogation to protect the driver.

Colin Crow at February 11, 2015 at 11:04 PM

Beowulf at February 11, 2015 at 8:57 PM

So if not by the McWatters bus and Whaley taxi then how did Oswald end up In Oak Cliff in time for his arrest at Texas Theatre? I doubt he had time to walk there from TSBD so did he leave the scene by another bus, by taxi the whole way, by someone he knew with a car (a station wagon, say) or by hitching a ride with a stranger? I think that boxes the compass of possibilities.

Brings us back to Roger Craig.

This is going from memory but anyway......

Early on the DPD seemed to accept the Craig station wagon theory. It could be Oswald, the shooter or nothing of importance. If it was Oswald and he did not want to reveal an "accomplice" could he have introduced a "bus" scenario in order to protect the driver. At some point the order came down from on high to pour cold water on any thought of conspiracy. Hence Craig must be wrong. Oswald has to be the only person involved. So they go with the bus story. McWatters is selected and a transfer ticket added as icing. The problem is now one of timing.....he needs to be at North Beckley by 1pm at the latest. A cab is introduced.....Whally inducted......Oswald actually goes along with the story during interrogation to protect the driver.

According to Roger Craig, Oswald may have already have let the cat out of the bag.

Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"

And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."

And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."

And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.

Paul Francisco Paso at February 12, 2015 at 12:03 AM

Colin Crow at February 11, 2015 at 11:04 PM

Beowulf at February 11, 2015 at 8:57 PM

So if not by the McWatters bus and Whaley taxi then how did Oswald end up In Oak Cliff in time for his arrest at Texas Theatre? I doubt he had time to walk there from TSBD so did he leave the scene by another bus, by taxi the whole way, by someone he knew with a car (a station wagon, say) or by hitching a ride with a stranger? I think that boxes the compass of possibilities.

Brings us back to Roger Craig.

This is going from memory but anyway......

Early on the DPD seemed to accept the Craig station wagon theory. It could be Oswald, the shooter or nothing of importance. If it was Oswald and he did not want to reveal an "accomplice" could he have introduced a "bus" scenario in order to protect the driver. At some point the order came down from on high to pour cold water on any thought of conspiracy. Hence Craig must be wrong. Oswald has to be the only person involved. So they go with the bus story. McWatters is selected and a transfer ticket added as icing. The problem is now one of timing.....he needs to be at North Beckley by 1pm at the latest. A cab is introduced.....Whally inducted......Oswald actually goes along with the story during interrogation to protect the driver.

According to Roger Craig, Oswald may have already have let the cat out of the bag.

Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"

And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."

And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."

And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.

Greg is spot on.  It's a conundrum.

The minute we try to explain how he did get back home, wherever home may have been, we end up with 500 different scenarios.  The old curmudgeon Raymond J. Carroll used to use the question to divert attention away from the evidence falling to pieces concerning the bus and taxi rides.

"How did he get home then?" 

My stock answer was hot air balloon.

The point being that I believe Craig's earliest recollections are accurate. Can you really believe Fritz did not have him in the office given the circumstances? Either Oswald got the lift or someone very close in appearance. He is the only witness to describe the weight correctly 130-140lbs. He also confirms Rowland's witnessing two men on the 6th floor, even though the testimony relects someone who only had a few minutes in the caos with him. The basics are there. Chicken bones and bag on the stack of books in the SN not the trolley, no long bag in the SN.

Colin Crow at February 12, 2015 at 1:52 AM

The point being that I believe Craig's earliest recollections are accurate. Can you really believe Fritz did not have him in the office given the circumstances? Either Oswald got the lift or someone very close in appearance. He is the only witness to describe the weight correctly 130-140lbs. He also confirms Rowland's witnessing two men on the 6th floor, even though the testimony relects someone who only had a few minutes in the caos with him. The basics are there. Chicken bones and bag on the stack of books in the SN not the trolley, no long bag in the SN.

No, Colin. I do believe Roger Craig's recollections to be accurate. My main point when I first went through all this over at the Education Forum was that it was never incumbent upon me to prove how he got back to Oak Cliff simply because I had proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not on McWatters bus or in Whaley's cab.

It doesn't mean I don't want to - - it just means I don't have to and even though I do that doesn't mean I can.

I have no problem with the speculation process and trying to build a new narrative out of the remains of the old one but the problem will always be we will never all agree on the details. I have always had a primary driver when researching the case; continue to prove the official story is false and find a way to exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald. Greg's purpose in starting this forum was, and is, to have the case reopened. We can't solve it. It has to be done in an official capacity. During my bad days I think this is wishful thinking. During my good I think we have an outside shot. However, to do that we have to stop with the solution mode and continue with breaking the official story to pieces. That's just my view, others with have theirs but just look over at the Education Forum and see what happens when two dozen people think they've solved the case.

That being said I believe there are a number of ways that Oswald may have left Dealey Plaza:

1. A different bus or a different cab

2. A station wagon driven by persons unknown or by Ruth Paine (and if it was Paine the possibility rises that she also dropped him off in the morning)

3. A different automobile driven by persons unknown

4. An automobile driven by Charles Given, William Lowery or Joe Molina that took him straight to the Theater

5. I'm sticking with the hot air balloon as a possibility as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

I'm also going to continue to present the case for Marion Meharg who rang Alveeta Treon (she of Raleigh call fame) the evening of the assassination and said he saw a man leave by the rear of the TSBD and hop into a 1956 Chevrolet Station Wagon that was green and white and was driven off from Houston Street toward the triple underpass. This is why I was asking about the model of car in the still I captured from the film that was taken minutes after the assassination on another thread. This still clearly shows a green and white chevrolet (albeit 1959) driving through Dealey Plaza.

I know when I first introduced Marion Meharg's story over at the EF it receievd a very lonely response (other than our very own Ed and John Dolva) but the more I delved the more I began believing the guy and that his story had been manipulated by the authorities similar to the way I am convinced (absolutely convinced) they manipulated Richard Randolph Carr's story. As a quick aside I once debated the Carr story with Larry Hancock by email and, fuck me, the guy was so myopic is was unreal. Mention Carr and you get the knee-jerk response that he couldn't have seen what he claimed but look through his statements and the statements of the people close to him and there is blatant evidence of manipluation.

So, what would I throw my money on?

He left by automobile. He was given the green light to leave by Bill Shelley. Shelley lied. Who was driving the automobile? Fucked if I'd know.

From an old RRC thread at the Education Forum:

There is a possible variable that we are failing to discuss regarding Richard Randolph Carr.

I can’t work out the answer to Lee Forman’s question concerning the document from 11/30/63 insofar as where this document is located and how he was the subject of an FBI record at the end of November because it looks like the FBI were trying to make it appear as though Carr first came to their attention through Mary Sue Brown at the end of December.

Brown was interviewed on December 27, 1963 and she relays to SA W. Harlan Brown the conversation that she was a part of when Carr made statements that Oswald did not assassinate the President.

The interesting part of the Mary Sue Brown report by Harlan Brown is that it states that “CARR told Mrs. Brown and others [Mrs. Brown’s sister Elsie Johnson and a friend named Holly Jordan] that there were four or five other steel workers on the building under construction near the place where the President was assassinated and that they likewise saw the assassination. Carr said that one of them had been interviewed by the FBI.”This report, by Harlan Brown, was typed up on the same day, 12/27/63, and was later reproduced as a report dated January 9, 1964, acting as back-story for the interview with Carr, and this January FBI report omits the line, “Carr said that one of them [four or five steel workers who likewise saw the assassination] had been interviewed by the FBI.”

Why would they want this line deleted from Mary Sue Brown’s original statement that was written into the December 27th report?

The thing that we are not discussing here, leaving the alleged contradictions in Carr’s New Orleans testimony aside for a moment, is how aggressively the FBI went after Carr once they began investigating him.

On January 15th, eleven days after Carr was interviewed due to Mary Sue Brown contacting the FBI, an airtel was sent from J. Edgar Hoover to J. Gordon Shanklin in Dallas. It states:

“Information…relating to alleged observations of Richard Randolph Carr.

The purpose of submitting a letterhead memorandum in this matter is not clear. It would appear this inquiry should be handled as a regular investigative development under the above caption [he means a miscellaneous JFK assassination header rather than under the header of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, aka. IS – R – CUBA] and not under the caption of referenced airtel.

Prior to considering this matter resolved, the allegations made by Carr should be specifically repudiated. It is noted one of the original allegations is that Carr stated Oswald did not assassinate the President and that he and four or five other steel workers witnessed the assassination and presumably they could substantiate Carr’s statements.

Carr should be recontacted and an appropriate signed statement taken regarding his observations. He should be confronted with the inconsistencies noted, particularly those based on personal observation by Dallas Agents. You should also be alert to any violation of Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 1001.

When the investigation is completed, it should be appropriately reported bearing in mind the Presidential Commission is being furnished copies of the investigative reports. A letterhead memorandum need not be submitted.”

This is strange to me because Hoover’s airtel from January 15th followed from Carr’s statements on January 4th. Carr was then interviewed again on February 3rd and gave a written and signed statement. He was not pressed concerning his allegations of other workers seeing/hearing the assassination even though Hoover wanted answers to what he described as “contradictions” in the statement. Carr does address the issue of why he said Oswald was not the assassin but doesn’t mention anything about the other worker being interviewed by the FBI who could “substantiate his statements.” The reason it is strange is because Hoover is basically requesting his agents to threaten Carr with Title 18, Section 1001 - furnishing false evidence to a Federal officer.

I cannot understand why in the January 9th FBI report it states that “Carr denied making any statements to the effect he had [observed] anyone leaving the entrance of the TSBD and getting into a gray car” because in the February 3rd signed and written statement he does state that very thing. He says, “This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston St., South to Commerce St., then East on Commerce St., to Record St. which is one block from Houston St. This man got into a 1961 or 1962 Grey Rambler Station Wagon which was parked just north of Commerce on Record St. The Station Wagon, which had Texas license and was driven by a young Negro man, drove off in a northern direction.”

http://contentdm.bay...PTR=33901&REC=3

Above link is to John Armstrong’s file on Richard Randolph Carr and contains his February 3rd written and signed statement on pages 16-21 as well as the various FBI reports [absent the November report alluded to by Lee Forman].

If Carr was making this up and Hoover was requesting his agents to pressure Carr with Title 18, Section 1001, then why didn’t they prosecute him if they could prove he was supplying false information to a Federal Officer?

The whole thing makes no sense to me and makes me put a little bit more faith in Carr and his recollections. As far as the FBI report is concerned that suggests the seventh floor and roof of the TSBD could only be seen from the Ninth Floor of the steel structure, what other evidence do we have of this other than the agents say so? Do we have photographs?

In a 1967 memo from Penn Jones to Jim Garrison, Jones states that “within 2 or 3 days after the assassination the FBI visited him [Carr] in his home. They were very brusque in their manner, and they told Mr. Carr if he didn’t see Oswald shoot out of the 6th floor window he had better keep his damn mouth shut.”

I’m beginning to believe him because there is something not quite right with these reports and I’m struggling to buy the reason the FBI went after Carr was because Mary Sue Brown contacted them on December 27th. I think he was contacted prior in November and I think he was threatened.

In a 1977 newpaper article Carr states, "On January 2nd, 1964, police, claiming to have a search warrant, barged into his house and turned the place upside down. Two shotguns were aimed at him and his wife. The policeman, Carr claims, dared them to move. Carr and his son were taken to the police station, where Carr was detained overnight. The following day, his family started receiving anonymous telephone calls threatening death if they didn't get out of Texas.

Terrified, Carr moved to Montana. Within weeks three men, one of them matching the description of the man Carr saw leaving the TBSD came looking for him at his home while he was at work.

Suspicious, Carr started checking his automobile. Once he found three sticks of dynamite wired to the ignition.

In 1968, Carr agreed to appear as a witness at the Clay Shaw hearings in New Orleans. But 15 days before he was scheduled to appear, police in Billings, Montana, arrested a man just as he was about to shoot Carr.

In July of 1969, while visiting relatives in Atlanta, Georgia, Carr was attacked on a city street and stabbed in the back and arm by two men. Carr, who was carrying a gun by this time, shot one of his assailants three times.

The threats on his life continued and in 1975 his marriage fell apart. Then Carr disappeared.

However, an independent Kennedy assassination researcher found him recently. He had changed his naem and remarried. But he was still suffering the wounds of his ordeal, both physical and mental."