REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

So, the trip from Lakewood took exactly an hour and the return from Marsalis was also an hour.

At least, when the buses did not have to slow down for traffic jams caused by assassinations and such.

Is the above document confusing anybody else?

Not really, although it would be easier to follow if I used a map.

The only confusion I found was in the middle of the second paragraph "...Market and Elm and Record and Elm." This should have ended the description of the downtown stops and started another paragraph with "This bus then turns south on Houston..."

At the end it returns to its starting point at Main and Lamar and starts over from the top.

At least that how it seems to me. (a frequent over-looker of the obvious)

Terry Martin at February 4, 2015 at 11:07 AM

Not really, although it would be easier to follow if I used a map.

 

The only confusion I found was in the middle of the second paragraph "...Market and Elm and Record and Elm." This should have ended the description of the downtown stops and started another paragraph with "This bus then turns south on Houston..."

 

At the end it returns to its starting point at Main and Lamar and starts over from the top.

 

At least that how it seems to me. (a frequent over-looker of the obvious)

Maybe I've been at this too long, Terry. The amount of time we have to spend to work out how a bleedin' transfer works and how it was cut is something new researchers should take into account before letting this case suck them in.

Are we saying this bus had three separate routes?

Route One - LAMAR STREET & MAIN STREET to CAMBRIA & ANITA - Route ends and bus starts route two

Route Two - CAMBRIA & ANITA to PENTAGON & MARSALIS Route ends and bus starts route three

Route Three - PENTAGON & MARSALIS to LAMAR STREET End of route three and begins route one again

Lee,

It appears to be a three-prong route (Outbound to the NE on Main to Cambria/Anita, then turn around and go through downtown on Elm and continue to SW into Oak Cliff, turning around at Pentagon to return to Lamar Street) but it is actually one long route to cover points to NE and SW but passes through the downtown region twice. It practically retraces part of each outbound route on the return portion.

Yes, it is obvious that Dallas loves to confuse everything, whether it has to do with the case or not!

(Actually, many Postal routes follow similar patterns - going out and coming back - then repeating in another direction.)

Terry Martin at February 4, 2015 at 12:58 PM

Lee,

 

It appears to be a three-prong route (Outbound to the NE on Main to Cambria/Anita, then turn around and go through downtown on Elm and continue to SW into Oak Cliff, turning around at Pentagon to return to Lamar Street) but it is actually one long route to cover points to NE and SW but passes through the downtown region twice. It practically retraces part of each outbound route on the return portion.

 

Yes, it is obvious that Dallas loves to confuse everything, whether it has to do with the case or not!

 

(Actually, many Postal routes follow similar patterns - going out and coming back - then repeating in another direction.)

Terry, 

Bear with me here okay and help me through this.  Would a three pronged route have one bus number or different bus numbers?

What do you think this bus number/s was/were given the evidence in the record?

From what I read here, I would assume the bus maintains the same number throughout the various portions of its route. Most of the buses in our area do as well. Not ALL do, however, as I know some who change the route # and destination marquee at the outbound terminus. Why do some change and others not? I have no clue.

In the document, Mr. Snyder uses "Munger Bus Run No. 1213" in quotes as though he is responding to that portion of someone's question either from a verbal statement or another document we don't know. He replies that it is the route called Marsalis and has the number 30.

It would seem it had the name Marsalis and #30 throughout the route. But again, as with other parts of this case, assuming anything can be very risky.

I'm just trying to understand as much about this as possible, Terry, because every now and again some detail will pop along that allows us to see things differently.

The thing here is that this bus had two different numbers for the two very different parts of its route.  

The Pentagon & Marsalis to Lamar & Main AND the Lamar & Elm to Pentagon & Marsalis route was the number 30.  

The Lamar & Main to Cambria & Anita AND Cambria & Anita to Lamar & Elm was the number 23 bus.  

Two different bus routes with different numbers where the number would change at Lamar & Main or Lamar & Elm depending upon direction of travel..

I'm guessing the "run" is both parts of the route together which is defined as 1213?  Not knowing much about the U.S. transportation system (especially in 1963) this thing is confusing the hell out of me but we can take to the bank the fact that the bus McWatters was driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm that afternoon was the number 23 from LAKEWOOD until it reached LAMAR & ELM when it became the numer 30 to MARSALIS.

What does this mean?  Probably fuck all.  But there is something bugging the life out of me here and my intuition is telling me it has something to do with the bus McWatters was driving that evening when he was dragged off it.  Don't know why - just a nag.

Question: if I boarded McWatters bus at LAMAR & ELM (hence the #30 bus) heading toward MARSALIS and departed at Jefferson and requested a transfer what section on the transfer would McWatters punch?  Would it still be punched LAKEWOOD even though I'm not technically on the LAKEWOOD (#23) bus?

It sounds as if the north-eastern part of the route was 23 and it became the Marsalis bus on return and changed to 30. I cannot imagine that the "23" segment of the route should have been called "Marsalis".

It may mean fuck all, as you say, but I have more faith in your intuition. If something feels wrong about it, then I'll bet the reality stinks to high heaven. At the present, I seem to have exhausted my limited repertoire. I don't think McWatters drove any other routes... Maybe the location when he was pulled off might mean something.

We just have to keep looking at it from other angles. Perhaps someone else has one of those different angles?

Anyone??

Like I said, I know a couple of bus drivers. I'll see what I can get from them. I know - different country - different era - but I'm willing to bet some things are pretty much unchanged re the way transfers are handled, the way routes are allocated and whatever else.

But we need to be a bit wary I think, of the dreaded and pervasive Lunchroom Syndrome whereby sufferes feel the need to prove Oswald could not get to the 2nd floor in time for an encounter they don't believe happened...

Greg at February 4, 2015 at 3:40 PM

Like I said, I know a couple of bus drivers. I'll see what I can get from them. I know - different country - different era - but I'm willing to bet some things are pretty much unchanged re the way transfers are handled, the way routes are allocated and whatever else.

But we need to be a bit wary I think, of the dreaded and pervasive Lunchroom Syndrome whereby sufferes feel the need to prove Oswald could not get to the 2nd floor in time for an encounter they don't believe happened...

It is an interesting conundrum and worthy of debunking but I don't for a moment believe it has anything to do with Oswald.

Perhaps it's need morphed from other part of the case. Who knows?

All I am certain about in Dallas that day is that Kennedy was killed. Everything else is up from grabs.

Map one shows a pink pin at bottom and a red pin off centre top.

The pink pin is where the #23 bus would start from heading to LAKEWOOD.

The red pin is the location of the Interurban Building which was the home of Dallas Transit in 1963.  Distance between two pins is approximately 4 blocks.

Map two shows two pins.  Pink pin shows Interurban building at 1500 Jackson.  Red pin shows location that Cecil McWatters started his #23 bus route that day in Lakewood.  Distance between pins 6.5 miles.

My main question is quite simple.  Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR.  When he got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.

So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.

This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus?  If the answer is YES, I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things, if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?

Norman Redlich, to a certain extent, knew the score:

Also, I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the "man" contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he teleported backwards to Griffin & Elm.  Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus became the #30 bus.  

I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this but I'm still confused as fuck.

You really are confused. You should know as principle of Sanity U, that the diploma you bestowed upon Ed was in "Dallas Transit System Circa 1963."

It is the equivelant of being a general practitioner. Now if you want to specialize in the #23 or #30 bus, it's another 6 years full time study for the doctorate.

Lee:

"I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the "man" contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he teleported backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus became the #30 bus."

Probably when "the man" tleported back to the previous bus stop, he held fast to the transfer that was already in his hand.

Really, this is standard fare in modern science fiction stories... even the ones from 1963.

Now, as to your question about having a transfer from the #23 bus when you weren't on it... You wouldn't. But when you are dealing with evidence planted by people who haven't a clue what they are doing, it works just fine. It allows us to debate the evidence ad nauseum.

Therefore, what you have done is proven the transfer is fake. Even though most of us assumed it was, the verification of fallacy is always of value.

Now is there more that this might mean? Possibly, but it might require the extra six years that Greg is talking about.

In the pursue of a cop killer there is fair game, I have read Mcwitters testimony a couple of times, trying to read it like an actor with his "voice" and way of talking, I keep getting the impression that he makes a stop and is quitly saying WTF when he is shown the punched transfer, I think it is because that he knows that I would never punch 23 Lakewood when this guy is bording the bus at 30 Elm on the Marsalis route, but he plays laong as he has hears that this is the copkiller we are dealing with, I think that he would NEVER make such a mistake as it seems that he loves his bus and his work and he loves the oppertunity to get to tell the american viewer about the busses and then the case.

I´m also certain that the buscompany would keep track of who got which tickets, simply because of the fact that then the driver could put some of the money from the tickets in his pocket, and they the company could never say who or when if they were not keeping track of the tickets, who hot which tickets and how many were sold when the shift was done.

Maybe they used all the tickets from a book before starting a new book, and maybe the drivers were signing in the books as to how many tickets were sold ?

It is my understanding that THE transferpoint for the no 23 bus was Lamar. Transfers would not be normally issued after Lamar because there is no transfer point.

That is why McWatters set the time on his cutter in advance to 1.00pm, within the 15 mins (plus his laziness) of his arrival at Lamar.

There are references to transfer stops in various places and I think Lamar was the major one or at least one of them.

I see the transfer system like the spokes of a wheel where the hub is near Dallas train station.

You can't go back on the "wheel spoke" you came on.

Lee Farley at February 3, 2015 at 4:10 PM

You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.  Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was much further east than Munger.  This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.  

This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane.
I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map. Last street is Anita.
He say's so in his testimony.
Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered.
Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita.
This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town into the neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track back to the Lakewood shopping center.
Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he does his sign changes/punches, etc.
So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird?
Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before that if you hopped on at Anita if that is a stop.