REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Terry Martin at February 1, 2015 at 11:14 AM

Lee,

Good questions, all. One can fall back on the old (but very useful) saw about the ineptness of the DPD, or one can speculate that Oswald's pockets assume the same magical cornocupia status held by the Paine's garage.

I wonder what else they found in Oswald's pockets when he was rolled into Parkland that final time?

We know the answer to that one, Terry.

Once Oswald was dead at Parkland they found John Abt's phone number on a piece of paper in his strides along with other phone numbers including John Hurt's in Raleigh, NC that set the ball in motion in creating even more bullshit to hide the real reason he had it.

I do love reading the whole John Hurt called Oswald at the City Jail because he was drunk story.  It sure does make me giggle as to the depths of the barrel they had scrape to keep a lid on proceedings.

Delving into this is bringing back bad memories.

On the issue of why the Lakewood section of the bus transfer is punched here is Cecil McWatters explanation under the, as always, great lawyering of Joseph Ball who must have gone to the same law school as Dawn Meredith:

Mr. BALL - Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - You always punch at the end of your destination?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.

Mr. BALL - Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is on the opposite of town from--

Mr. BALL - The other side is Capital. Where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS - Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is.

Mr. BALL - Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer?

Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have--

Mr. BALL - We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make?

Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.

Mr. BALL - Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is right.

Mr. BALL - And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - So you would punch one of those names?

Mr. McWATTERS - Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.

Mr. BALL - I have no further questions.

There you go.  Makes perfect sense.  Just as long as you are smoking heroin and have a brain tumour eating its way through your prefrontal cortex.

More than ever i am convinced LHO never caught the bus. It;s just too fucking complicated for someone supposedly on the run. In other words your better off finding an alternative method of fleeing the scene.

One person I did not directly contact when researching the original bus thread was Hugh Aynesworth.  Duke Lane did this on my behalf and although I didn't really trust the manner in which Duke was relaying the questions I also knew that he was friendly with Aynesworth and was more likely to receive answers.

One answer we did not receive because the question came too late in the day and Duke was long since retired from the the thread was concerning the whole switching of the woman (contained in McWatters affidavit) who boarded the bus over on Marsalis Avenue into the woman who was on the bus over on Elm Street.

It was Aynesworth who finally cemented the deal for me when I found one of his old reports that he wrote in the Dallas Morning News the week after the assassination.  

The elderly woman who had the altercation with Oswald on the bus "was acquainted with Oswald" Aynesworth wrote.  

Therefore if the elderly woman had an altercation with Oswald over on Marsalis Avenue then the elderly woman did not have it with Lee Oswald because Oswald had allegedly long departed the bus when this altercation took place.  

And if the woman who had an altercation with Lee Oswald was "acquainted with Lee Oswald" then the woman who had the altercation over on Marsalis was the woman who would go on to be Mary Bledsoe.  

Therefore Mary Bledsoe was not on the bus over on Em Street and the person she had an altercation with Roy Milton Jones.

Greg at January 31, 2015 at 3:56 AM

Ed Ledoux at January 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM

Sans reverse instructions on 004459, one can safely say 004451 is "the receipt"
and Globe did stop printing Shopper Transfers instructions on the reverse side.

Next is testing. I can complete a detailed experiment where I will match LHO's movements and actions alledged and see how well a shirt pocket protects a flimsy transfer from crinkles, wrinkles, folds, creases and dog ears.

Ed, 

they may have stopped printing on the back cos most using it would be elderly and I'd assume an occasional complaint would be made about the print being too small to read. My guess is that between 1959 and '63 they ppsted the instructions inside the bus in largish print.

There are a couple of issues for... first obviously arises if 51 and 59 came from same book...

The other issue seems to be that all transfer tickers were printed as "shopper's transfer" but could only be used as a shoppers transfer with McWatters punch mark. Without the punch-mark, it was just your ordinary run-of-the-mill transfer -  but with it, it is now a SHOPPER'S TRANSFER.

Was going to copy and paste McWatters' testimony on this, but it is truly excritiating. But the sense I get is that  Mcwatters himself all but rules ticket 59 out as being given to Oswald - because as above - the punch mark transforms it into a shopper's transfer. McWatters' does say you have to specifically ask for a shoppers transer (presumably otherwise you just get it without the punch hole).  Once it has that punch hole, it is useless unless you go spend a buck. Oswald just wanted to get home - not go shopping. And McWatters actually tells them it is in the majority of cases only old ladies who ask for them.

McWatters had absolutely no reason to punch that ticket. If Oswald was on that bus, all he needed was the ticket. With that punch hole - he COULD NOT JUST GO AND HOP ANOTHER BUS.

At least, that is what I get from it. The punch hole 

Screw it.

I'll post the testimony afterall.. see what you guys can make of it...:) 

Mr. McWATTERS - I really don't know because I didn't, see, I didn't know anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from in other words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.

-----------------------------------

Mr. BALL - Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer. Does that have any significance?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.

When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.

Mr. BALL - In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. BALL - And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct, yes, sir.

If I am right, that punch hole has just proved Oswald was not on the bus.

We need to find out the answer to the question posed by Ed.  The removal of the information from the back of the ticket does not ring true for me. The back of the transfer listed the specific stores you could shop at to get your return journey.  That's information needed on the ticket and not only on the walls of the bus.  I'd be interested to see the back of 004459.

Just so that the other members know the insanity that we are dealing with here when trying to find out what should be very simple stuff here is another extract from McWatters' testimony concerning how the transfer time was cut:

Mr. BALL - If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I designate the time of the we have one general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there.

In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter.

In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, - :30 and - :45. In other words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point.

Representative FORD - It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?

Mr. McWATTERS - At 10:25.

Representative FORD - Why don't you cut one?

Mr. McWATTERS - I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at 10:30.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Now, call me pedantic if you must, but I'm not sure whether McWatters or Joseph Ball knew what was going on when a request to "cut one" was made. In other words, I think McWatters may have let one rip instead of actually cutting a transfer and handing it over to the world's worst or world's best lawyer - - depending upon your perspective.  In other words, I think there may be a bag waiting to be opened at the National Archives containing a fifty year old fart belonging to Cecil McWatters.  There is no other explanation for this obvious bullshit.

Where the fuck is the commission exhibit of the 10:25 transfer cut during the testimony?  Same place as common decency and honour when it comes to this case.  Non existent.

So, do I have this right.  That the transfer would be cut in 15 minute slots like these:

Looking at my previous post a glaring problem exists in the whole bus transfer shenanigans.

Cecil McWatters was specifically asked what a transfer would look like if he "cut one" for 10:25.  Although we get a classic McWatters convoluted answer he does actually tell us that he would cut it for 10:30.

The official timeline has Lee Oswald boarding the bus at 12:40pm.  Therefore his alleged transfer should have been cut for 12:45 and not 1:00.

So we have him with the wrong timed transfer and we also have a manifest that states he got in William Whaley's cab at 12:30.  These fifteen minute time slots didn't really work out too well for the Warren Commission.  Oswald, it would appear, was working his way through November 22nd backwards.

Mr. BALL - Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL - Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS - It was already punched.

Mr. BALL - And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but--

Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Greg at February 1, 2015 at 6:07 PM

Mr. BALL - Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL - Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS - It was already punched.

Mr. BALL - And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but--

Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Complete horseshit, Greg.  No other word for it.

It would seem to me that a rather simple process is being intentionally convoluted by the questioning of these procedures by one of "the world's worst or world's best" loyers. Why do the loyers for the WC bend over backwards to make everything as confusing as possible?

Fifty + years of debating is the most likely answer.

Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir."

And would that not have been the most obvious spot where Perry Mason would whip out the transfer in question and ask if it was the one he was shown?

Obviously these "highly pedigreed" clowns were among the world's worst loyers.

Terry Martin at February 1, 2015 at 6:25 PM

It would seem to me that a rather simple process is being intentionally convoluted by the questioning of these procedures by one of "the world's worst or world's best" loyers. Why do the loyers for the WC bend over backwards to make everything as confusing as possible?

Fifty + years of debating is the most likely answer.

 

Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

 

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir."

And would that not have been the most obvious spot where Perry Mason would whip out the transfer in question and ask if it was the one he was shown?

Obviously these "highly pedigreed" clowns were among the world's worst loyers.

They are good, Terry. They know where the mines are and mostly steer the witnesses away. If a witness treads on one, inadvertantly, they are quick to confuse and divert attention from any troubling answer.

Lee Farley at February 1, 2015 at 6:21 PM

Greg at February 1, 2015 at 6:07 PM

Mr. BALL - Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL - Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS - It was already punched.

Mr. BALL - And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but--

Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Complete horseshit, Greg.  No other word for it.

Well... yes there are... but we're too polite...

87cents change in LHO pocket....23cent bus fare = $1.10

Why would he need change for a soda? He had at least ten cents in change
He would have had upon leaving TSBD (if he did pay for a bus fare of 23cents)
5 pennies,
1 nickle (or 2 or 3)
3 dimes (or 4 or 5)
and a 50cent piece.

Transfer and other personal property items were released by Fritz on 12-10-1963 to FBI

We know the FBI had the transfer before this and assigned it a lab Q number and were to process the transfer.
I can look at the color photos of the extant transfer and I see no processing done.
No finger print dust, or chemicals, no residue nothing on the transfer.
I believe the FBI only photographed the transfer and did no lab tests on the item. Why not? Sure it was found on LHO supposedly, so were the items in his wallet and his ring and bracelet but they were examined and wallet items were all fingerprinted... look at those items discolored from chemicals.
Transfer is pristine.

See page 107
http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/oswald_lee_h_post-russian_period_4_aliases/oswald_lee_h_post-russian_period_4_aliases.pdf
Items in wallet were treated for latent prints.
Only reasons to fingerprint items were to find LHO prints or someone who helped LHO make the selective service card etc.

So transfer 004459 should still hold prints from McWatters, LHO, and Boyd. Yes?
If there are no prints from LHO or McWatters then there would be a lot of explaning to do...so the lab was instructed to not process the transfer. That is the only conclusion I can surmise.

Lee glad this stuf makes you smile

So Cecil pre-punches his two booklets of transfers.
He says so himself several times.
He says he does this at the end of the line and this is the regular procedure.
I do have doubt that Cecil, having given out two years worth of transfers, would waste time as he knows what the transfers are going to be. They are all PM. The Lakewood run transfers he would pre-punch Marsalis.
This prevents a rider from getting a free return trip to the Marsalis area.
To get a free return trip, you would, upon boarding ask Cecil for a Shoppers Transfer.
Cecil would take a pre-punched transfer and ADD a punch in the Shoppers Transfer section. Turning the transfer into a Shoppers Transfer, allowing the rider to get off downtown and shop til 4 or 7 and get a free return ride via a slip from participating stores (listed on back of transfer or in Newspaper).
Now the cutter that cecil used to show Belin how to cut the transfers is important to our understanding of how the transfers were tore/cut.
Upon inspecting 004459 it seems it has been torn rather than a cutter leaving a sharp edge.
I guess its a little late to ask Ball or Cecil to show us how that worked! (DART reunioun maybe good place to ask)
I assume the way Lee has shown in images is how the cutter would be used. (at an angle)
004459 is torn to show 1 and 0 or 1 O' Clock, straight across, no angle.
So transfer would be good for 15 minutes from time shown of 1:00pm, thus good till 1:15pm

Terry, How did Cecil see a transfer when he arrived at the police station that was in an envelope, sealed by Boyd and Sims at 4:05pm? Neat trick!!

The transfer 004459 was pre-punched Lakewood and pre-punched Pm.
It was from a booklet of transfers sequentially numbered which were supposedly sitting on a cutter in Cecils bus...scratch that. He was on a different run on a different bus.
Did Cecil carry around the used booklets? Did he turn them in at end of Marsalis/Lakewood run, and then get transfers for his next run? Or did he take all the transfers for all the routes he would do that day with him when he left the Dallas Transit Co. that morning. Seems he stated he left with two books of transfers for his Marsalis?Lakewood route.
Did he park that bus 1213 back at the bus garage? Or does the next driver show up at the end of Lakewood/Marsalis or at St.Paul and Elm to take over the next shift. Why does he change routes? Why does he only work a few hours here and there? Why not do a single route from morning till night a full 8 hours?
Questions questions questions...

Now Cecil upon showing Ball how to cut the transfer does not say he starts at the bottom of the book.
He shows Belin that the TOP transfer is cut/tore in such a fashion to produce the time closest to when the issue time was.
This sinks 004459.
004459 would have to be sitting at the top of the book under the cutter so Cecil could just tear it off quickly.

Again Cecil PRE-PUNCHED his transfers, I would do the same, If I drove the same route for two years and all I ever gave out was 1pm transfers.
He pre-punched the routes, Marsalis on all transfers in one booklet and Lakewood on the other.
Then he set his cutter across the 1 and 0  so he could just reach over and with one hand tear off and hand the transfer to the rider.
No thinking involved. Reach, tear, hand off. No addition or subtraction for Cecil please!
Now if a lady boarded the bus and wanted a Shoppers Transfer, then Cecil would take his punch and add a punch mark in the section labeled 'Shopppers Transfer'. Then the lady can depart the bus downtown to shop till 4 or 7 and spend a buck to get a 'slip' from participating stores, previously listed along with instructions on the back of the transfer. (or listed in newspaper)
With the 'slip' you get back home, or where you started for free!
Otherwise you have a regular transfer which if you received it from Cecil at 12:40 would be good to 1:15pm!!!
Why did he not tear 004459 at 12 and 45 (assuming he did give out this transfer), it is a straight cut across at the bottom of the transfer.
Why?
Because he is a lazy or smart, bus driver that's why. He sets the cutter to 1 and that is it. He does not give out 12:45pm Lakewood bus transfers.
He gives out 1pm transfers because he may have someone ask for one at 12:50.
Well that would be a 1pm transfer, even though they get ten extra minutes.
Same for one he may give at 12:36 at St.Paul and Elm. It will still be a 1pm transfer from Cecil.
Now don't confuse Cecil with the rules and regulations department of Dallas Transit Co.
Cecil is just working a job the best way he can and making it simple is part of that job.

"we consider up to 12:45 a.m" See! so he marks them all PM. as he will be at St.Paul and Elm at exactly 12:36 he just
cuts his PM's at 1 and calls it good. If he wanted to pre-punch his transfers to make life easy, then anything before 12:45 would need to be PRE-PUNCHED AM.
Then that transfer/ or BOOK OF PRE-PUNCHED transfers is now worthless as soon as he leaves St.Paul.
If someone wanted a transfer at 12:50 and they are already punched AM then the transfer has expired before they get off the bus with it.
So! No angled cuts! Necessary.  Just tear them at 1pm and all transfers
Weird I was thinking ....I know bad sign huh!...but seriously I was thinking if I was driving I would PUNCH beside the fifteen minute interval that I wanted.
For 10:30 I would PUNCH beside the 30
And For the Hour I would PUNCH beside the 10
and tear the WHOLE TRANSFER OFF AT THE PERFORATION (down at the staple area)
But that is just ME and my brain working.
So could the transfer 004459 have been torn from a booklet of transfers from Cecils bus?
Or is 004459 a sample showing the DPD how he, Cecil, punched a transfer on that day?
Was the booklet used backwards? NO!
Cecil is showing Belin how to use the cutter on a transfer...obviously the TOP transfer from a booklet. Cecil did not flip book over, remove or fold back the rear cover, peel back the last transfer and then cut it.
He merely placed cutter on transfer.
Did Ball mark this as an exhibit? No.
Did Ball have Cecil mark(punch) the transfer he had just cut as he would normally a transfer? No.
BUT in his wisdom Ball did save and enter this item,
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_372.pdf
Oh thank you Mr. Ball

Lee Farley at February 1, 2015 at 9:24 AM

Nice work, Ed.  Fascinating stuff.  Keep digging.

I remember when Greg and I, along with Duke Lane, first went through all this with a fine tooth comb and the struggle we had trying to fill in some of the gaps. When I originally found ticket 004451 in the Mary Ferrell archives I really didn't know what the hell it was until I later found the reports that accompanied it stating that the ticket was STOLEN by the Station Supervisor at Dallas Transit, one James P. Routt, as a souvenir.  As far as I'm aware this ticket had never been discussed before by anybody.  I balked at the explanation, especially seeing as how the person who took it was never formally interviewed (Routt's story simply replayed through F. F. Yates who was the Division Superintendent at Dallas Transit) and there is no documented investigation as to how it reappeared into the hands of F. F. Yates to be handed over to the FBI.  I had many a long night sat at home going over and over this in my head.  I could not believe that the ticket book that we are told originally held 004459 was not taken as evidence from McWatters bus.  The only reason to not take it was to hide the numerical sequence or alternatively it was taken and deep-sixed.

Instead we are asked to believe that many months after the assassination the FBI suddenly developed an interest in finding out further information about the transfer and F. F. Yates suddenly managed to pull out of his arse the 004451 transfer that was inscribed on the back with:

"Receipt for the book of transfers from which transfer was issued to Oswald the accused assig of Pres. John F. Kennedy" accompanied by Routt's signature.

By the time the FBI started digging it was too late to find out any further information.

The whole thing stinks.  One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around is the stamp mark in the Lakewood section of the transfer. Lakewood was the last stop on McWatters bus going in the opposite direction.  Lakewood being the area where Mockingbird Lane is.  McWatters' bus going in the other direction toward Oak Cliff was the Marsalis bus.  So why is Lakewood stamped with McWatters punch?  McWatters' bus stopped being the Lakewood bus the minute he turned the bus around in Lakewood and headed back toward Elm Street at which point it became the Marsalis bus - - therefore I would expect the ticket to be punched in the Marsalis section.

You certainly do need a fucking masters degree to work out these bus routes and transfer tickets.

P.S. The Beckley bus stopped at the identical same set of bus stops on Elm Street as McWatters bus and was due on Elm Street at the exact same time which was 12:36pm.  As a regular customer of public transport Oswald would have known this.

mahalos Lee!
I do remember the Ed forum discussions and brilliant threads from real eyes on investigating.
Yes It is always tough to let someone else ask the necessary questions and follow-up questions once you absorb the answers.
I don't doubt Duke would have pried something open if there was a gap presented, but may not have asked in the manner as to open a gap.
Being open to the answers helps.

To explain the punch,
Cecil is at the end of the route. He has turned around at Lakewood shopping center. He changes the sign on the front of his bus to display MARSALIS.
This informs potential passengers waiting for a bus along the route back he is taking that this bus is heading to the Marsalis area.
BEFORE HE LEAVES LAKEWOOD SHOPPING CENTER Cecil punches Lakewood in a booklet of Dallas Company Transfers, all of them, and possibly (TEN), this is so riders can not get back to Lakewood. He is inbound from Lakewood. Riders will be picked up from the Lakewood area. The company does not want to give free rides back. Ok?

Cecil punches all transfers Marsalis when at end of route leaving Ann Arbor heading back towards Lakewood. He changes the sign to display LAKEWOOD on the front of his bus.
The riders he picks up along the way will be from Marsalis area.
The punch in Marsalis prevents the riders from using the transfer to get back to Marsalis area for free.

To get back to Lakewood (or Marsalis) free you need to ask for a shoppers transfer and pay your fare when you got on the bus.
Cecil would place a punch mark in the shopper transfer section and hand it to you.
The extra punch in the section labeled Shoppers Transfer makes this a free ride transfer. (if you spend a $1 in participating store and get a slip)
Cecil already had his transfers punched PM and either Marsalis or Lakewood. Correct?
So if you wanted off at Lamar, asked for a transfer, got a transfer Cecil tore off one from the booklet under the cutter at 1pm then you can stay downtown for at least 15 minutes before boarding any bus at Lamar to anywhere that bus goes, as long as its not back to Lakewood (or Marsalis) depending on how the transfer is marked. 
If Cecil drove your ass all the way from Lakewood to St Paul, or even Lamar Cecil's last stop downtown, and lets you off and you ask for a transfer which is marked MARSALIS then you can get back to Lakewood area free by getting on the next bus to come along at Lamar heading near Lakewood.....for free! Not gonna happen, why, drivers mark the transfers from where the bus came from or more importantly where YOU CAME FROM.
You want to go back home? Spend a $1 at a store after asking for a shoppers transfer or pay the fare from Lamar to back to Lakewood (or Marsalis) 23 more cents or whatever.

The whole point is Cecil knows this too.
"when I got in Lakewood Addition I set my transfers for downtown."
He dives the same bus for two years. If there is a shortcut to make he knows it.
So he pre-punches the two books and has the booklet under the cutter ready to go. tears them off as needed. Easy peasy Weasy
He even gives you a few extra minutes, why, is he a nice guy? No, it is easier to just pre-punch and tear at 1 rather than 12:45 which makes the pre-punching wrong. 12:45 would be AM. Punch them all PM as he said. Punch them all Marsalis for the booklet he will use on the Lakewood route, and Lakewood on the Marsalis route and place them in the cutter under the 1 O' Clock section, a nice straight tear. Swap booklets at end of run and repeat.

Schedule CE 378 shows he starts at 12:11 at Lakewood. So by the time he hits Lamar at 12:40 it makes sense he skips the five minutes. But this is still AM and that messes with his system.

This is key and he is telling you 004451 is bogus! He doesn't say it as 004451 was not show to him, he was showed 004459.

Of course a transfer with the correct mark in the right spots would tend to make Cecil say it was from him on the route at the time and date indicated.
And if 004451 is not from Cecil on that route, because it is not set for downtown then 004459 would be bogus too!
 
Can I get my Masters now? How about Diploma?

Lee Farley at February 1, 2015 at 9:24 AM

Nice work, Ed.  Fascinating stuff.  Keep digging.

I remember when Greg and I, along with Duke Lane, first went through all this with a fine tooth comb and the struggle we had trying to fill in some of the gaps. When I originally found ticket 004451 in the Mary Ferrell archives I really didn't know what the hell it was until I later found the reports that accompanied it stating that the ticket was STOLEN by the Station Supervisor at Dallas Transit, one James P. Routt, as a souvenir.  As far as I'm aware this ticket had never been discussed before by anybody.  I balked at the explanation, especially seeing as how the person who took it was never formally interviewed (Routt's story simply replayed through F. F. Yates who was the Division Superintendent at Dallas Transit) and there is no documented investigation as to how it reappeared into the hands of F. F. Yates to be handed over to the FBI.  I had many a long night sat at home going over and over this in my head.  I could not believe that the ticket book that we are told originally held 004459 was not taken as evidence from McWatters bus.  The only reason to not take it was to hide the numerical sequence or alternatively it was taken and deep-sixed.

Instead we are asked to believe that many months after the assassination the FBI suddenly developed an interest in finding out further information about the transfer and F. F. Yates suddenly managed to pull out of his arse the 004451 transfer that was inscribed on the back with:

"Receipt for the book of transfers from which transfer was issued to Oswald the accused assig of Pres. John F. Kennedy" accompanied by Routt's signature.

By the time the FBI started digging it was too late to find out any further information.

The whole thing stinks.  One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around is the stamp mark in the Lakewood section of the transfer. Lakewood was the last stop on McWatters bus going in the opposite direction.  Lakewood being the area where Mockingbird Lane is.  McWatters' bus going in the other direction toward Oak Cliff was the Marsalis bus.  So why is Lakewood stamped with McWatters punch?  McWatters' bus stopped being the Lakewood bus the minute he turned the bus around in Lakewood and headed back toward Elm Street at which point it became the Marsalis bus - - therefore I would expect the ticket to be punched in the Marsalis section.

You certainly do need a fucking masters degree to work out these bus routes and transfer tickets.

P.S. The Beckley bus stopped at the identical same set of bus stops on Elm Street as McWatters bus and was due on Elm Street at the exact same time which was 12:36pm.  As a regular customer of public transport Oswald would have known this.

I owe a debt to you for 004451!
Lets follow the search

Here is D154
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1015561
This shows the transfer 0004451 with a map.
Were these two items picked up together at Dallas Transit from James P. Routt and ...........I can't make out the signature under it ????


Page 7
http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/mcwatters_cecil_j/mcwatters_cecil_j.pdf
"All transfers North and South are marked 1pm"

Page 10
http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/mcwatters_cecil_j/mcwatters_cecil_j.pdf
They commission asks he bring his punch and any materials, papers, documents related to assassination that are in his control!

page 12 shows that Cecil would change the bus sign on "front and side to read 30 Marsalis" also a small sign in the lower right of front window would be changed to read 24 which is the "train number."

Is the T&P #24 aka THE LOUISIANA LIMITED the train the woman whom got a transfer wanted to catch?
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth286016/m1/6/

Page 13 DRIVERS ARE ISSUED BOOKS OF 50 TRANSFERS
Driver tears off first transfer and writes his badge number on the back and turns it in.
So 195 was McWatters badge number as written on the back of 004451.
So 004451 would not be punched after all.
004451 would be turned into the Station Office and kept for two months then destroyed. (thrown in trash to be snagged up by Routt?)
Signed the back "J.P. Routt Sta. Foreman." Kept as souvenir.
Booklets were issued to drivers.
Driver asked for as many booklets as driver thought he needed for the run.
F.F. Yates, Division Superintendent had no other information concerning the other transfer books issued Mcwatters 11/22/63!!!!!!!
This is in response to page 18 and the question of all the transfers issued Mcwatters 11/22 and if the transfers are issued to the drivers in numerical sequence (ie would Cecil have gotten the next booklet starting 004461 or previous booklet 004401 for his return run to Lakewood?)

Hoover sends Rankin a bound volume entitled "Bus and Taxi exhibits"

Page 30
Milton Jones was off in his time he boarded Marsalis bus.  Said he waited till 12:10 - 12:15 for it. Mcwatters leaves Lakewood at 12:11
and left bus at Brownlee at 1:45, states Cecil was at DPD till 1am Sat. being questioned.

Greg at February 2, 2015 at 3:50 AM

 

Awww shucks! Thanks Greg, Lee and the 4 Musketeers!!
My GED just wasn't cutting it.
Nice touch with the picture of bus 433 

Ed,

I think there exists the possibility that this cutting machine that McWatters says was used to cut the transfer time is completely bogus.  I'd like to see one.  Here's why.  The explanation you give about using the stamp to indicate the transfer time is foolproof.  If someone needs a 1:30 transfer you use your punch on the 1 and the 30.  If someone wants a 12:15 transfer you use your punch on the 12 and the 15.  That way the ticket cannot be changed to give you a later transfer.  For instance if I got a 12:30 transfer then, according to McWatters testimony, virtually the entire ticket will be handed over to the customer who could just tear the ticket at whatever time they required later in the day.

None of this makes any fucking sense whatsoever and I think we can hazard a good guess why no exhibit was created from McWatters' magical cutting maching after being asked during testimony to "cut one" for 10:30 by Gerald Ford.

What do you think are the odds that the tear (because it is torn and not cut) across the 1:00 section on 004459 was made to remove a different transfer time?  Something is really bugging me about this...

Ed Ledoux at February 2, 2015 at 4:25 AM

Lee Farley at February 1, 2015 at 9:24 AM

Nice work, Ed.  Fascinating stuff.  Keep digging.

I remember when Greg and I, along with Duke Lane, first went through all this with a fine tooth comb and the struggle we had trying to fill in some of the gaps. When I originally found ticket 004451 in the Mary Ferrell archives I really didn't know what the hell it was until I later found the reports that accompanied it stating that the ticket was STOLEN by the Station Supervisor at Dallas Transit, one James P. Routt, as a souvenir.  As far as I'm aware this ticket had never been discussed before by anybody.  I balked at the explanation, especially seeing as how the person who took it was never formally interviewed (Routt's story simply replayed through F. F. Yates who was the Division Superintendent at Dallas Transit) and there is no documented investigation as to how it reappeared into the hands of F. F. Yates to be handed over to the FBI.  I had many a long night sat at home going over and over this in my head.  I could not believe that the ticket book that we are told originally held 004459 was not taken as evidence from McWatters bus.  The only reason to not take it was to hide the numerical sequence or alternatively it was taken and deep-sixed.

Instead we are asked to believe that many months after the assassination the FBI suddenly developed an interest in finding out further information about the transfer and F. F. Yates suddenly managed to pull out of his arse the 004451 transfer that was inscribed on the back with:

"Receipt for the book of transfers from which transfer was issued to Oswald the accused assig of Pres. John F. Kennedy" accompanied by Routt's signature.

By the time the FBI started digging it was too late to find out any further information.

The whole thing stinks.  One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around is the stamp mark in the Lakewood section of the transfer. Lakewood was the last stop on McWatters bus going in the opposite direction.  Lakewood being the area where Mockingbird Lane is.  McWatters' bus going in the other direction toward Oak Cliff was the Marsalis bus.  So why is Lakewood stamped with McWatters punch?  McWatters' bus stopped being the Lakewood bus the minute he turned the bus around in Lakewood and headed back toward Elm Street at which point it became the Marsalis bus - - therefore I would expect the ticket to be punched in the Marsalis section.

You certainly do need a fucking masters degree to work out these bus routes and transfer tickets.

P.S. The Beckley bus stopped at the identical same set of bus stops on Elm Street as McWatters bus and was due on Elm Street at the exact same time which was 12:36pm.  As a regular customer of public transport Oswald would have known this.

I owe a debt to you for 004451!
Lets follow the search

Here is D154
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1015561
This shows the transfer 0004451 with a map.
Were these two items picked up together at Dallas Transit from James P. Routt and ...........I can't make out the signature under it ????


Page 7
http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/mcwatters_cecil_j/mcwatters_cecil_j.pdf
"All transfers North and South are marked 1pm"

Page 10
http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/mcwatters_cecil_j/mcwatters_cecil_j.pdf
They commission asks he bring his punch and any materials, papers, documents related to assassination that are in his control!

page 12 shows that Cecil would change the bus sign on "front and side to read 30 Marsalis" also a small sign in the lower right of front window would be changed to read 24 which is the "train number."

Is the T&P #24 aka THE LOUISIANA LIMITED the train the woman whom got a transfer wanted to catch?
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth286016/m1/6/

Page 13 DRIVERS ARE ISSUED BOOKS OF 50 TRANSFERS
Driver tears off first transfer and writes his badge number on the back and turns it in.
So 195 was McWatters badge number as written on the back of 004451.
So 004451 would not be punched after all.
004451 would be turned into the Station Office and kept for two months then destroyed. (thrown in trash to be snagged up by Routt?)
Signed the back "J.P. Routt Sta. Foreman." Kept as souvenir.
Booklets were issued to drivers.
Driver asked for as many booklets as driver thought he needed for the run.
F.F. Yates, Division Superintendent had no other information concerning the other transfer books issued Mcwatters 11/22/63!!!!!!!
This is in response to page 18 and the question of all the transfers issued Mcwatters 11/22 and if the transfers are issued to the drivers in numerical sequence (ie would Cecil have gotten the next booklet starting 004461 or previous booklet 004401 for his return run to Lakewood?)

Hoover sends Rankin a bound volume entitled "Bus and Taxi exhibits"

Page 30
Milton Jones was off in his time he boarded Marsalis bus.  Said he waited till 12:10 - 12:15 for it. Mcwatters leaves Lakewood at 12:11
and left bus at Brownlee at 1:45, states Cecil was at DPD till 1am Sat. being questioned.

Question, Ed; why would James P. Routt sign the back of his souvenir with his own name?