REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Lee,

An astounding story. Carr's life after Dallas seems to mimic that of Roger Craig. Assaulted repeatedly, marriage broke up, and so forth. And he also witnessed a Rambler drive off with Lee inside. Funny that they both have the initials "TC" and were befriended by Penn.

I like the part where he said the shooter was on the seventh floor or roof of the TSBD. The sixth floor seemed to be void of shooters that day regardless of the clattering sounds of the ejected shells hitting the floor.

Were any of the other people he mentions as co-witnesses ever followed up on?

On another note, I am leaning more toward clicking the heels of his glass slippers together than the hot-air balloon theory of escape. I do not recall a suitable landing area near the Texas Theater for the balloon even though there is plenty of hot air in this case.

The glass slippers would also tie in the earlier discussion of Lee spending time in the gay bars in NO... My bad! That was Harvey.

I admire the work you and Greg have done and I especially like the statement in your next previous post, that you do not have to "solve" the case, just prove the WC got it all wrong. I think we can all see it is pretty well shredded by now.

And we already have too many people who have "solved" the case.

Damn! They didn't have the initials "TC" but "RC".

Too early in my day to be typing, I guess. Ought to wait until I've had another cup of coffee...

Getting a lift, because there are witnesses to it, would seem the most plausible. But that would tend to suggest he was involved somehow - and I don't believe he was (although there may be a scenario whereby he is picked up but is still a complete unknowing patsy...)

If Oswald was to be framed inside the Texas Theater for Tippit's murder (as I wholeheartedly believe), then I think it stands to reason that he was driven there under the pretence that he was to make contact with someone. 

Hasan Yusuf at February 12, 2015 at 8:37 AM

Getting a lift, because there are witnesses to it, would seem the most plausible. But that would tend to suggest he was involved somehow - and I don't believe he was (although there may be a scenario whereby he is picked up but is still a complete unknowing patsy...)

If Oswald was to be framed inside the Texas Theater for Tippit's murder (as I wholeheartedly believe), then I think it stands to reason that he was driven there under the pretence that he was to make contact with someone. 

I agree, Hasan. The Texas Theater proved to be a trap and Oswald was there to make contact with someone. Jack Davis (who was interviewed by the 6th floor museum) witnessed Oswald moving from seat to seat. He wasn't there by accident and nor were the avalanche of cops who were supposedly there to arrest someone who snuck into the movies.

I believe Oswald was driven there. There is no doubt in my mind.

I always wondered about the tale that he was moving from seat-to-seat as if searching for someone.

When did this story first see the light of day and are there any corroborating testimonies? I ask because it seems like a "distraction", something to tie Oswald into the conspiracy. That and the Redbird airport scenario; neither make much sense to me.

Unless, of course, Oswald was up to the eyebrows in the plot... which I doubt!

This does seem to take us a far remove from the subject of the thread, I think. Still if he did not take the bus, etc., one wonders how he made it to the theater.

I'm curious, could have Oswald have taken bus directly to TT? Did Marsalis bus (McWatters's bus presumably) or the Beckley bus have a stop near Texas Theatre? It'd certainly tie up loose ends if Oswald was given a ride from Dealey Plaza to TT by Officer Tippit but I don't think the timing works (Tippit was seen, alone, in the Gloco gas station parking lot at 12:40).

I think Oswald was involved in something, he didn't really act like an innocent man would. Of course it could be he wasn't involved in the assassination but was involved in gun running, drug smuggling or something equally felonious that a murder investigation might stumble over. Once he had a lawyer he would have been advised that coming clean might land him jail for a few years but would save him from the electric chair. Then again maybe he was the lookout whose job was to get the shooting team on and off the elevator without a fuss. There's no telling.

Beowulf at February 12, 2015 at 2:53 PM

I'm curious, could have Oswald have taken bus directly to TT? Did Marsalis bus (McWatters's bus presumably) or the Beckley bus have a stop near Texas Theatre? It'd certainly tie up loose ends if Oswald was given a ride from Dealey Plaza to TT by Officer Tippit but I don't think the timing works (Tippit was seen, alone, in the Gloco gas station parking lot at 12:40).

I think Oswald was involved in something, he didn't really act like an innocent man would. Of course it could be he wasn't involved in the assassination but was involved in gun running, drug smuggling or something equally felonious that a murder investigation might stumble over. Once he had a lawyer he would have been advised that coming clean might land him jail for a few years but would save him from the electric chair. Then again maybe he was the lookout whose job was to get the shooting team on and off the elevator without a fuss. There's no telling.

Buses going across the Houston Street Bridge were delayed due to jams in the aftermath of the assassination. This is why police supposedly had to rule out a bus-only trip by Oswald. 

If Oswald did get on the station wagon at 12.40 as described by Roger Craig, then the trip to north-east Oak Cliff would be as brief as 5 minutes, suggesting that a significant period is unaccounted for in non-Warren theories of Oswald's movements. The natural routes would be either along Commerce and south on Beckley or from Elm directly onto the Stemmons/R L Thornton freeway.

I don't think there was a route available in 1963 from the Triple Underpass to the city side of the Houston Street Bridge. (I stand to be corrected, though.) This would imply that should Tippit have been at the Gloco service station, he would not have seen the station wagon described by Craig.

Roger Craig's version of events in 1963 and 1964 seems perfectly sound to me. It gives a tantalising glimpse of what Oswald was really saying in custody.

To acknowledge that he left Dealey Plaza by Ruth Paine's station wagon (which certainly appears to be implied by Craig's testimony) means Oswald was co-operating. His 'everybody will know who I am now' comment sounds like a despairing realisation that his role as an undercover agent was ruined.

Terry Martin at February 12, 2015 at 1:54 PM

I always wondered about the tale that he was moving from seat-to-seat as if searching for someone.

When did this story first see the light of day and are there any corroborating testimonies? I ask because it seems like a "distraction", something to tie Oswald into the conspiracy. That and the Redbird airport scenario; neither make much sense to me.

Unless, of course, Oswald was up to the eyebrows in the plot... which I doubt!

 

This does seem to take us a far remove from the subject of the thread, I think. Still if he did not take the bus, etc., one wonders how he made it to the theater.

I agree with you, Terry.

Now that we know the level of complete and utter bullshit that was woven into a totally fraudulent story about this fella I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

And as quickly as I laid money down on a belief that he was driven over to Oak Cliff in an automobile I'm also willing to throw a wager on a different scenario.  

Don't know whether this has legs but I'll only bet what I can afford to lose.  Feel free to play devil's advocate and pick this to pieces but please excuse me rushing this because I'm typing on the move.

1. Lee Oswald was being cased by U.S. Intelligence Officer S. L. Reed.  

2. Bill Shelley was on orders to dismiss Oswald from work.

3. Reed watched the building and as Oswald left he followed him.  

4. Reed took photos of Oswald all the way up Elm Street.  

5. He watched him get on the Beckley bus and takes the necessary photos of street containing different buses.  

6. In the S. L. Reed photos of the buses on Elm Street the first bus waiting to cross Houston Street was the Beckley Bus and it quickly got through the traffic driving down Elm Street straight past the TSBD.

7. Reed followed the bus in his car.  

8. He then saw Oswald get off the Beckley bus at Jefferson and followed him to the Theater.  

9. Reed watched Oswald enter the Theater at approximately 1pm just as TT employee Butch Burroughs claimed.  

10. Reed then rang Oswald's location through to a contact from a pay phone and waited.  

11. 45 minutes later he watched the DPD swoop and was on hand photographed Lee Oswald getting dragged out the Theater by police officers.

Much narrative to replace and add in but I think this is a possibility.  

This is the reason why we don't have every S. L. Reed photograph that he took that afternoon.

I'll think about the Bledsoe-Jones evidence in relation to this tonight but I think the library caper may have been designed to stall McWatters bus. 

Redfern at February 12, 2015 at 5:01 PM

Beowulf at February 12, 2015 at 2:53 PM

I'm curious, could have Oswald have taken bus directly to TT? Did Marsalis bus (McWatters's bus presumably) or the Beckley bus have a stop near Texas Theatre? It'd certainly tie up loose ends if Oswald was given a ride from Dealey Plaza to TT by Officer Tippit but I don't think the timing works (Tippit was seen, alone, in the Gloco gas station parking lot at 12:40).

I think Oswald was involved in something, he didn't really act like an innocent man would. Of course it could be he wasn't involved in the assassination but was involved in gun running, drug smuggling or something equally felonious that a murder investigation might stumble over. Once he had a lawyer he would have been advised that coming clean might land him jail for a few years but would save him from the electric chair. Then again maybe he was the lookout whose job was to get the shooting team on and off the elevator without a fuss. There's no telling.

Buses going across the Houston Street Bridge were delayed due to jams in the aftermath of the assassination. This is why police supposedly had to rule out a bus-only trip by Oswald. 

If Oswald did get on the station wagon at 12.40 as described by Roger Craig, then the trip to north-east Oak Cliff would be as brief as 5 minutes, suggesting that a significant period is unaccounted for in non-Warren theories of Oswald's movements. The natural routes would be either along Commerce and south on Beckley or from Elm directly onto the Stemmons/R L Thornton freeway.

I don't think there was a route available in 1963 from the Triple Underpass to the city side of the Houston Street Bridge. (I stand to be corrected, though.) This would imply that should Tippit have been at the Gloco service station, he would not have seen the station wagon described by Craig.

Roger Craig's version of events in 1963 and 1964 seems perfectly sound to me. It gives a tantalising glimpse of what Oswald was really saying in custody.

To acknowledge that he left Dealey Plaza by Ruth Paine's station wagon (which certainly appears to be implied by Craig's testimony) means Oswald was co-operating. His 'everybody will know who I am now' comment sounds like a despairing realisation that his role as an undercover agent was ruined.

Regarding the buses Redfern.  If Reed's photo's show the buses in question then it looks like traffic was moving slowly through Elm and we have witnesses saying traffic continued to flow for some time before the whole area was cordoned off.

Lee Farley at February 12, 2015 at 5:37 PM

Terry Martin at February 12, 2015 at 1:54 PM

I always wondered about the tale that he was moving from seat-to-seat as if searching for someone.

When did this story first see the light of day and are there any corroborating testimonies? I ask because it seems like a "distraction", something to tie Oswald into the conspiracy. That and the Redbird airport scenario; neither make much sense to me.

Unless, of course, Oswald was up to the eyebrows in the plot... which I doubt!

 

This does seem to take us a far remove from the subject of the thread, I think. Still if he did not take the bus, etc., one wonders how he made it to the theater.

I agree with you, Terry.

Now that we know the level of complete and utter bullshit that was woven into a totally fraudulent story about this fella I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

And as quickly as I laid money down on a belief that he was driven over to Oak Cliff in an automobile I'm also willing to throw a wager on a different scenario.  

Don't know whether this has legs but I'll only bet what I can afford to lose.  Feel free to play devil's advocate and pick this to pieces but please excuse me rushing this because I'm typing on the move.

1. Lee Oswald was being cased by U.S. Intelligence Officer S. L. Reed.  

2. Bill Shelley was on orders to dismiss Oswald from work.

3. Reed watched the building and as Oswald left he followed him.  

4. Reed took photos of Oswald all the way up Elm Street.  

5. He watched him get on the Beckley bus and takes the necessary photos of street containing different buses.  

6. In the S. L. Reed photos of the buses on Elm Street the first bus waiting to cross Houston Street was the Beckley Bus and it quickly got through the traffic driving down Elm Street straight past the TSBD.

7. Reed followed the bus in his car.  

8. He then saw Oswald get off the Beckley bus at Jefferson and followed him to the Theater.  

9. Reed watched Oswald enter the Theater at approximately 1pm just as TT employee Butch Burroughs claimed.  

10. Reed then rang Oswald's location through to a contact from a pay phone and waited.  

11. 45 minutes later he watched the DPD swoop and was on hand photographed Lee Oswald getting dragged out the Theater by police officers.

Much narrative to replace and add in but I think this is a possibility.  

This is the reason why we don't have every S. L. Reed photograph that he took that afternoon.

I'll think about the Bledsoe-Jones evidence in relation to this tonight but I think the library caper may have been designed to stall McWatters bus. 

I like it, Lee. Simple, straightforward, and, like I said, simple. I like simple. It is easy to wrap this mind around simple.

The getaway described by Craig would seem to run counter to it and it has no opportunity for Lee to change clothes. With him catching a ride so quickly after the assassination, I wondered who he could have called to pick him up. The idea that the Rambler station wagon was idling in the parking lot behind the TSBD would seem to imply prior knowledge and the need for a quick getaway.

Lee got the afternoon off and decided to take in the new Van Heflin flick. Nothing very sinister in that.

It will be interesting to see where this thing goes.

This afternoon I was wondering - if Bledsoe was still his landlady at the time and the authorities might have "leaned on her" with some vague threat of assisting the assassin, harboring or aiding and abetting or something, unless she plays nice and throws him under the bus... Or in this case, "on" the bus.

Just an idle thought.

Lee Farley at February 12, 2015 at 5:37 PM

Terry Martin at February 12, 2015 at 1:54 PM

I always wondered about the tale that he was moving from seat-to-seat as if searching for someone.

When did this story first see the light of day and are there any corroborating testimonies? I ask because it seems like a "distraction", something to tie Oswald into the conspiracy. That and the Redbird airport scenario; neither make much sense to me.

Unless, of course, Oswald was up to the eyebrows in the plot... which I doubt!

 

This does seem to take us a far remove from the subject of the thread, I think. Still if he did not take the bus, etc., one wonders how he made it to the theater.

I agree with you, Terry.

Now that we know the level of complete and utter bullshit that was woven into a totally fraudulent story about this fella I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

And as quickly as I laid money down on a belief that he was driven over to Oak Cliff in an automobile I'm also willing to throw a wager on a different scenario.  

Don't know whether this has legs but I'll only bet what I can afford to lose.  Feel free to play devil's advocate and pick this to pieces but please excuse me rushing this because I'm typing on the move.

1. Lee Oswald was being cased by U.S. Intelligence Officer S. L. Reed.  

2. Bill Shelley was on orders to dismiss Oswald from work.

3. Reed watched the building and as Oswald left he followed him.  

4. Reed took photos of Oswald all the way up Elm Street.  

5. He watched him get on the Beckley bus and takes the necessary photos of street containing different buses.  

6. In the S. L. Reed photos of the buses on Elm Street the first bus waiting to cross Houston Street was the Beckley Bus and it quickly got through the traffic driving down Elm Street straight past the TSBD.

7. Reed followed the bus in his car.  

8. He then saw Oswald get off the Beckley bus at Jefferson and followed him to the Theater.  

9. Reed watched Oswald enter the Theater at approximately 1pm just as TT employee Butch Burroughs claimed.  

10. Reed then rang Oswald's location through to a contact from a pay phone and waited.  

11. 45 minutes later he watched the DPD swoop and was on hand photographed Lee Oswald getting dragged out the Theater by police officers.

Much narrative to replace and add in but I think this is a possibility.  

This is the reason why we don't have every S. L. Reed photograph that he took that afternoon.

I'll think about the Bledsoe-Jones evidence in relation to this tonight but I think the library caper may have been designed to stall McWatters bus. 

Of all the coincidences surrounding the events of that day, Reed and his camera stick out like a sore thumb. Am i right in thinking that shortly after the assassination Reed was incommunicado?. Regarding the traffic, Craig stated that he couldn't cross the road because it had yet to be closed off, when he saw the person enter the Rambler.

It would indeed be interesting to know exactly how Reed got to the Theater.

He wasn't an official photographer as far as I can see and wouldn't have been tagging along with the Police.

Would he?

Is there any way an innocent Lee is tricked into going to the TT? Serious question and I need an answer!

steely dan at February 12, 2015 at 6:28 PM

Lee Farley at February 12, 2015 at 5:37 PM

Terry Martin at February 12, 2015 at 1:54 PM

I always wondered about the tale that he was moving from seat-to-seat as if searching for someone.

When did this story first see the light of day and are there any corroborating testimonies? I ask because it seems like a "distraction", something to tie Oswald into the conspiracy. That and the Redbird airport scenario; neither make much sense to me.

Unless, of course, Oswald was up to the eyebrows in the plot... which I doubt!

 

This does seem to take us a far remove from the subject of the thread, I think. Still if he did not take the bus, etc., one wonders how he made it to the theater.

I agree with you, Terry.

Now that we know the level of complete and utter bullshit that was woven into a totally fraudulent story about this fella I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

And as quickly as I laid money down on a belief that he was driven over to Oak Cliff in an automobile I'm also willing to throw a wager on a different scenario.  

Don't know whether this has legs but I'll only bet what I can afford to lose.  Feel free to play devil's advocate and pick this to pieces but please excuse me rushing this because I'm typing on the move.

1. Lee Oswald was being cased by U.S. Intelligence Officer S. L. Reed.  

2. Bill Shelley was on orders to dismiss Oswald from work.

3. Reed watched the building and as Oswald left he followed him.  

4. Reed took photos of Oswald all the way up Elm Street.  

5. He watched him get on the Beckley bus and takes the necessary photos of street containing different buses.  

6. In the S. L. Reed photos of the buses on Elm Street the first bus waiting to cross Houston Street was the Beckley Bus and it quickly got through the traffic driving down Elm Street straight past the TSBD.

7. Reed followed the bus in his car.  

8. He then saw Oswald get off the Beckley bus at Jefferson and followed him to the Theater.  

9. Reed watched Oswald enter the Theater at approximately 1pm just as TT employee Butch Burroughs claimed.  

10. Reed then rang Oswald's location through to a contact from a pay phone and waited.  

11. 45 minutes later he watched the DPD swoop and was on hand photographed Lee Oswald getting dragged out the Theater by police officers.

Much narrative to replace and add in but I think this is a possibility.  

This is the reason why we don't have every S. L. Reed photograph that he took that afternoon.

I'll think about the Bledsoe-Jones evidence in relation to this tonight but I think the library caper may have been designed to stall McWatters bus. 

Of all the coincidences surrounding the events of that day, Reed and his camera stick out like a sore thumb. Am i right in thinking that shortly after the assassination Reed was incommunicado?. Regarding the traffic, Craig stated that he couldn't cross the road because it had yet to be closed off, when he saw the person enter the Rambler.

The traffic had been cut off (I'd assume the latest possible point being that at which the motorcade pilot car came into view).

About 9 or 10 minutes after the assassination, vehicles were allowed to proceed on Elm past the TSBD - directly across what would be treated today as a major crime scene.

The station wagon was one of the first vehicles through.

What was so interesting about this spot that he stayed there and took two uninteresting photos over the time it took for the bus to travel that distance in slow traffic?

Greg at February 13, 2015 at 1:42 AM

Is there any way an innocent Lee is tricked into going to the TT? Serious question and I need an answer!

How about he was innocent in as far as he was an inside informant within the plot and, as such, the perfect patsy?

It looks to me like he was inveigled into playing a dangerous double-game - 'spying in right-wing groups' while ostensibly playing an active role in them. 

If he was completely cut-off from the assassination plot, how could anyone predict or control his movements and behaviour in the aftermath? He could have been shot outside the TSBD but that would have raised awkward questions about prior knowledge.

The timing of the rifle and revolver orders suggest that he was initially meant to be blamed for an attempt to murder General Walker. Then a change of focus?

There seem to be undercurrents of rivalry and turf wars between the FBI and the CIA throughout the whole episode.

Myers in With Malice has the bus for Helen coming at 1:15pm
He goes on in an endnote to say the bus stop pictured by FBI is on the NE corner of Patton and Jefferson.
Myers notes the inbound buses would be on the other side off Jefferson or South side.
Seems she would need to be asked if she needed to cross Jefferson. But was not.
I am trying to locate the BUS STOP PHOTO as described.
 CD 630 only talks of other photos, and no bus stop or Jefferson

Myers cites all the WCT and documents,
CD 689
CD 1128
CD 897
CD 630h
we have been through and I went through again, and in not one does Myers find support for the 1:15 bus claim.
There are a few buses one could get on, from the documents provided and cited, there are none that go downtown and have a 1:15 Jefferson stop. 
No evidence for a 1:15 bus in fact the document 630h that the FBI provides says 1:12 and every 10 minutes thereafter, but even it does not give a reference to how that data was collected or determined to be acurate or for which bus and at which stop exactly. ie no route card.
Rather vague work by the FBI for the Commission. Bob Barrett needs to be more specific when it comes to solving a double murder...where is the route card Bob?
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=351169


HM gets to corner of 10th and Patton by her estimate at 6 or 7 minutes after 1pm, but then she is cut off in her testimony!
Shooting occured at 1:06 -1:07 about 2 minutes after HM left the washiteria pay phone.
Times for trip from her home to that corner took 2 1/2 minutes.
The time is never stated as 1:04 as her time she left in WC tesimony, that comes from CD 897.  1pm is given by HM to the WC as the time.
Myers notes she was late by a few minutes trying to call her daughter.
Also in CD897 FBI relates that HM hoped to catch the bus about 1:15
So was "about 1:15" an easier way of saying 1:12? Yes it would be. About 1:15 includes 1:12, especially when framed with a 2.5 minute walk to the bus stop and leaving at 1:04. In that frame about 1:15 is equal to 1:12 seeing as she would be early to the bus stop, and would be waiting there without the aid of the washeteria clock.

But from the documents cited and provided, 1:15 is a false claim. It maybe what Markham said to the FBI and WC but that is not withstanding the time she said she saw the shooting-and or got to 10th & Patton or the time she saw on the clock before leaving for the bus.




http://phorum.dallashistory.org/read.php?2,19500,page=2

Wanda Scroggins-Liford

Re: Dallas Transit System/to roy

August 03, 2004 04:52PM

My husband was working for DTS when we met and worked for them for several years after we married. He too worked out of the Peak St. Barn. I had a free bus pass for as long as he worked for them. He was driving the Ramona line when I met him. His was the last Ramona bus out of downtown for the evening. Everything after that was the Marsalis/Ramona combination. I was attending night classes at old Crozier Tech, and would run like crazy to catch his bus. I want to say Ramona was #15 and Marsalis was #30, but I'm probably wrong. Ramona went across the Houston St. Bridge and turned onto Ewing then went zig zagged at Ewing and Frio and picked Ramona up at the Ramona Ave. Baptist Church where Frio and Ramona became a Y in the road. When it got to the end of the line, it would turn onto Five Mile Pkwy. then onto Frio, then onto Kingsley, then back onto Ramona going back downtown. I lived at Owega and Ramona which was almost to the end of the line. By the time we got that far out I was usually the only one left on the bus. Sometimes I would ride all the way around and get off on the way back into town. When Ray and I married in 1966, there were only two female drivers. One was a tiny little thing named Mrs. Foster and I can't remember the other's name. They got their jobs during WWII and stayed with it when the war ended. Mrs. Foster committed suicide in 1968 or 1969. I used to ride her White Rock bus when we lived in Casa View.

Wanda's husband may be the next driver whom took over from the morning Ramona driver. Or he was driving the Ramona bus during the assassination till evening. WoW! Anyways he would be there at least by '66 or before.