REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Mick Purdy at February 12, 2015 at 8:54 PM

steely dan at February 12, 2015 at 6:45 PM

Mick, you have presented a pretty solid case . A question i would ask regarding BWF taking the rifle in would be...Did BWF have foreknowledge of what was about to occur, or was he himself a gullible dupe. I understand that to answer this you will have to speculate.

Steely,

That’s the $64.00 question.

In my mind, it’s not impossible he could have been duped, but only in a limited way.

Let’s say for argument sake Wes was told to take the MC rifle into the TSBD early that Friday morning.

I ask, would it have been possible that Wes on that day, with President Kennedy going to ride past his work building at lunch hour, would he have, on the say so of another person agreed and taken a rifle into his place of employment without having an idea, any clue whatsoever, that the weapon he was carrying wouldn’t be used to injure, maim or kill another person?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

I realise, that’s not what you mean when you asked about being duped, but I think it’s an important question nonetheless.

I also ask is it possible that Wes was told to take the rifle into the TSBD for the purposes for which it was intended, to ultimately frame someone. For me that’s a distinct possibility.

I’ll advance my speculation a little further.

I believe that Wes took that MC rifle into work and knew it was to be used to frame Lee for a crime, 

And I believe, it’s not beyond the realms, to imagine Wesley in the parking lot hidden behind the tin shed, getting a package to one of the skeleton staff down at the warehouse on N Houston.

It’s not hard to imagine Wesley walking in alone in the carpark, and creating the illusion that Oswald is with him by hollering back to Givens ‘I dropped him off at the building”

It’s then, not a stretch IMO to believe that the package could have been delivered to the 411 Elm Street building by any one of the skeleton staff members from the warehouse on N Houston on that day.

It’s not impossible either that Bill Randle supplied Wesley with the MC rifle and the telescopic sight to take into the Texas school Depository on 411 Elm Street.

 

Thank you Mick. It's a question that needed asking and you have given a good answer.

There is good reason IMO to pursue the evidence surrounding Bill Randle, Berry Caster and Marvin Randle all of whom worked at Marvin's company Irving Table Top.

I believe Bill Randle may have played a part in supplying Buell Wesley Frazier with the throwdown weapon taken into the building that day.

Greg said on another post:

We know very little... but let's put together what little we have.

He was born in Dallas to a British couple.

He was a deacon in the First Baptist Church from 1955 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=131275226)

He worked for his brother Marvin's company "Irving Table Top"

Marvin was involved in Dixicrat politics and had a stint as mayor of Irving in the 1970s. A second tilt at that office was derailed by a concerted campaign accusing him of racism and fraud when last in public office

On the day of the assassination, William randle and fellow employee, Berry Caster, drove to Austin and booked into their hotel room at 700pm.

Mrs John O Thompson who managed the hotel with her husband, phoned the Austin FBI office on November 23 due to things William randle had said to them, including that (1) his wife worked at the same building as Oswald (causing Linnie's name to be added to Revill's list temporarily); that (2) he was acquainted with Oswald and; (3) that there had been rumors circulating in Dallas that Kennedy would be shot"on account of the Veteran's Administration Offices being moved out of Dallas".

Looking at those things individually:

I believe number one was simply Mrs Thompson misremembering what she had been told. What William no doubt told her was that his wife's BROTHER worked at the same building... not that his wife did...

Number two imo, is unlikely to have been the result of any similar misunderstanding.

It is very hard to imagine how number three could not have been any sort of misunderstanding. The fact is that such rumors did circulate. The DPD had specific intelligence about it. I know this because back when I first started on this case and had more time, I immersed myself in the evidence as much as I could - and that included opening and reading every single DPD file here. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html After reading what Randle had allegedly said, I returned to the DPD files to locate the releveant document --- only to find that the whole friggin folder has gone walkabout and is currently MIA.

When you go to it - it ain't there. Folder 2 has disappeared! http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box8.htm

Aug, 1963.

Dallas: The Dallas Real Estate board said it was “unalterably opposed” to the proposed move of the Veterans Administration regional office to Waco. The VA said it was moving the office because its Dallas landlord would not guarantee to abide by all federal anti-discrimination regulations.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk50/this-week-1963/20130810-aug.-11-17-bootleggers-get-boot-from-feds-in-east-texas.ece

You have to ask yourself why Randle would deny mentioning a harmless rumor...

I started out saying not much is known. And that is true, But there is one more thing. The Randles can be tied to a person in Dealey Plaza who has long been suspect. Details will be in volume 3. The church they attended is the key...

For those who believe BWF took the rifle to work, why the consistency about the bag length. He has never waivered on this. Why not say, 36” and that's (CE139) the bag I saw?

Colin Crow at February 13, 2015 at 1:18 AM

For those who believe BWF took the rifle to work, why the consistency about the bag length. He has never waivered on this. Why not say, 36” and that's (CE139) the bag I saw?

Collin, 

My view is no matter which theory you wish to believe, that Wes made damn sure his estimation of the bag length was underestimated, and with good  reason.

Colin Crow at February 13, 2015 at 1:18 AM

For those who believe BWF took the rifle to work, why the consistency about the bag length. He has never waivered on this. Why not say, 36” and that's (CE139) the bag I saw?

I think Lee Oswald was Prayer Man and I know Buell Wesley Frazier (BWF) was standing next to Prayer Man. Watching BWF closely in recent interviews, I see a man given to much introspection, as if he's carefully sorting out the proper words to say before he speaks. If BWF was simply a man that history assigned to be in the right place at the wrong time, why the deep thought? Just blurt out what happened, because his involvement was simple and circumstantial. I find it odd he doesn't do this.

I interpreted his demeanor as possible feelings of guilt over the fate of Oswald. Because if Oswald is Prayer Man, BWF knows he didn't shoot John F. Kennedy. BWF says he was treated abusively by Fritz and company (which I believe), finally being allowed to walk out later. I think he was told to keep his mouth shut and not rock the boat. The forces arrayed against this simple man were enormous. He knows this. So his sticking to things like the small bag size and saying Oswald was a decent guy are consistent with a man who deep down knows Oswald was innocent of the shooting. That can be a haunting burden to bear.

Now, as we consider additional evidence that challenges more heretofore postulated aspects of the case (i.e., BWF driving Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, 1963), it could be that BWF is in this much deeper than we ever thought. But no matter how deep his involvement may or may not be, he still was standing next to Oswald on the steps. He knows Oswald didn't shoot JFK. And no matter how deep his involvement may or may not be, he has decided to say certain things and stick to his story. He hasn't thrown Oswald under the bus (that he never rode). So even if he didn't drive Oswald to work and even if he did bring the Carcano to the TSBD (or even a 7.65 Mauser), he still feels guilt, remorse, as to how things turned out. Still claiming that the bag size was small is still consistent with how I think about him.

Just my thoughts at this time.

Colin Crow at February 13, 2015 at 1:18 AM

For those who believe BWF took the rifle to work, why the consistency about the bag length. He has never waivered on this. Why not say, 36” and that's (CE139) the bag I saw?

I believe he wanted to distance himself from the rifle and the situation as much as he could. Any hint that the package might have been a rifle risks his possible implication. If the package Oswald supposedly carried is too small, then its not a rifle.

I agree with much of what Paul and Stan have expressed. To me his steadfast comments about the size of the bag are his way of either distancing himself from the rifle, most likely because he knows Oswald didn't shoot that day. He has hinted previously his fears for his family's saftety along with a belief in Oswald's innocence. 

Unfortunately the scripted nature of the curtain rods story hides what truly happened. A bad attempt at covering whatever involvement he had that he cannot recant.

What I wonder about the guy yelling, "Where's your rider?" is how many people knew that Oswald went with BWF on Thursday night, meaning he would be a "rider" on Friday morning? Normally, he was supposedly only a rider on Monday.

If BWF had indeed brought the MC in that morning, how fortuitous to throw the blame on LHO but not completely - which could attach some complicity to him as knowingly helping bring the rifle in that morning. The irony of it is that he hides the fact that he brought the rifle in by admitting he carried a passenger it who had a bag too small to carry the rifle.

He's in the clear and so is Oswald, he thinks. He has used Oswald to deflect the idea that he carried ANY rifle in that day. How was he to know the WC would take the bag too small to carry a rifle and hang the fellow with it anyway?

And exactly who came up with this marvelous testimony in the talks at the Vipers' Nest?

Terry Martin at February 13, 2015 at 6:09 AM

What I wonder about the guy yelling, "Where's your rider?" is how many people knew that Oswald went with BWF on Thursday night, meaning he would be a "rider" on Friday morning? Normally, he was supposedly only a rider on Monday.

If BWF had indeed brought the MC in that morning, how fortuitous to throw the blame on LHO but not completely - which could attach some complicity to him as knowingly helping bring the rifle in that morning. The irony of it is that he hides the fact that he brought the rifle in by admitting he carried a passenger it who had a bag too small to carry the rifle.

He's in the clear and so is Oswald, he thinks. He has used Oswald to deflect the idea that he carried ANY rifle in that day. How was he to know the WC would take the bag too small to carry a rifle and hang the fellow with it anyway?

And exactly who came up with this marvelous testimony in the talks at the Vipers' Nest?

Terry it takes a sharp mind to see through the fog, sometimes it's right there at our nose tip, and sometimes an arms length away. You my friend have bought a smile to my face, I very much appreciate the way you're thinking.

I am still not sure what in the hell Givens was yelling out to Wes for.

Really,  everyone in at that building claimed on record that they knew nothing of Lee and that Lee kept to himself. That really everyone bar Wes, got to know him.

 And yet,

Friday, that special day of a world record of "firsts",

Givens at the top of his voice starts yelling to Wes "where's your rider". He was that interested on that day,

Go figure.

Frazier has claimed to have been referred to the TSBD by the Massey Employment company. Not sure of spelling, might be Massie.

From his testimony.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to get that job?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I went over there.

Mr. BALL - You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER - That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - That was in September 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL - Looking for a job around Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you go to live with your sister at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL - What--where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.

Mr. BALL - In Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; in Irving.

Mr. BALL - How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?

Mr. FRAZIER - Massey?

Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. BALL - And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, right.

Mr. BALL - And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave you a job?

Mr. FRAZIER - Correct.

Mr. BALL - Then you started work there about what date in September?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.

Mr. BALL - And you are still working there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.

Mr. BALL - How much did he start to pay you?

Mr. FRAZIER - He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. BALL - That is for an eight-hour day?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Five days a week.

Mr. BALL - Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER - Over there to the Texas School Books?

Mr. BALL - To the Texas School Book Depository.

Colin Crow at February 12, 2015 at 8:03 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihrdJbwPbaw

Interesting body language here. For the first 14 minutes or so Frazier seems quite composed as he is taken through the story of the paper bag he claims Oswald brought to the TSBD.

Then at 14.25 the interviewer, Tom Meros, asks him, ‘Did you ever use packing paper or was it always Troy’s job to do it?

For the first time in the interview Frazier seems visibly uneasy. He says, ‘Ah, I never used it myself for anything personal or anything just like that...’ There is a pause after the ‘Ah’ and on the word ‘myself’ he raises his left hand to stroke his nose with his index finger. As Greg pointed out in relation to a video of a Priscilla Johnson McMillan interview recently, this is often a sign of lying.

This is the first time during the interview that Frazier makes such a gesture (if it can be called that) but after that he repeats it three times (15.10, 15.35 and 17.29) and makes other similar gestures.

It seems from this that during the first three quarters of the interview he is going over a story that is well rehearsed but Meros’s question at 14.25 throws him off balance maybe because he was never asked it before and he may well have had something to do with fabricating the paper bag and the story around it.

Could this go some way towards explaining what Frazier was up to in the afternoon after the assassination?

The paper bag story was first told to the police by Linnie May Randle at around 4 pm at Ruth Paine’s house. The time problem is touched upon in the following extract from a McAdams article:

Was there a conspiracy between all of these officers to fabricate a story and a bag?

If so, the officers were fast on the uptake, since the bag was photographed being brought out the front of the Depository at 2:19 p.m. (Trask, Pictures of the Pain, p. 338). If it was forged, the officers forged it in about an hour, all the while not having questioned Wes Frazier and Lennie Mae Randle, and not knowing that they would so conveniently tell about the paper bag that Lee Oswald brought to the Depository that morning. They would also have had no way to know that Marina would testify that a rifle disappeared from the garage at the Paine house.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

Goban Saor at February 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM

Colin Crow at February 12, 2015 at 8:03 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihrdJbwPbaw

Interesting body language here. For the first 14 minutes or so Frazier seems quite composed as he is taken through the story of the paper bag he claims Oswald brought to the TSBD.

Then at 14.25 the interviewer, Tom Meros, asks him, ‘Did you ever use packing paper or was it always Troy’s job to do it?

For the first time in the interview Frazier seems visibly uneasy. He says, ‘Ah, I never used it myself for anything personal or anything just like that...’ There is a pause after the ‘Ah’ and on the word ‘myself’ he raises his left hand to stroke his nose with his index finger. As Greg pointed out in relation to a video of a Priscilla Johnson McMillan interview recently, this is often a sign of lying.

This is the first time during the interview that Frazier makes such a gesture (if it can be called that) but after that he repeats it three times (15.10, 15.35 and 17.29) and makes other similar gestures.

It seems from this that during the first three quarters of the interview he is going over a story that is well rehearsed but Meros’s question at 14.25 throws him off balance maybe because he was never asked it before and he may well have had something to do with fabricating the paper bag and the story around it.

Could this go some way towards explaining what Frazier was up to in the afternoon after the assassination?

The paper bag story was first told to the police by Linnie May Randle at around 4 pm at Ruth Paine’s house. The time problem is touched upon in the following extract from a McAdams article:

Was there a conspiracy between all of these officers to fabricate a story and a bag?

If so, the officers were fast on the uptake, since the bag was photographed being brought out the front of the Depository at 2:19 p.m. (Trask, Pictures of the Pain, p. 338). If it was forged, the officers forged it in about an hour, all the while not having questioned Wes Frazier and Lennie Mae Randle, and not knowing that they would so conveniently tell about the paper bag that Lee Oswald brought to the Depository that morning. They would also have had no way to know that Marina would testify that a rifle disappeared from the garage at the Paine house.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

 

And so it goes,

I mentioned earlier to Colin to look at the tape / packaging grab on the you tube he's posted. It's a classic, the pause, the rubbing of the nose/cheek, he's rattled there for a moment.

Frazier lied through his teeth IMO.

McAdams asked "Was there a conspiracy between all of these officers to fabricate a story and a bag?"

What is he talking about? There was a bag brought out of the depository so it was obviously not merely a fabricated story. The legerdermain comes into play in connecting the bag to the gun and thence to Oswald. That is the most apparent conspiracy here.

LMR & BWF perhaps already knew about the bag... especially if Frazier was the one delivering the rifle to the TSBD. They just had to make sure it was pinned on "the rider".

Terry Martin at February 13, 2015 at 8:59 PM

McAdams asked "Was there a conspiracy between all of these officers to fabricate a story and a bag?"

What is he talking about? There was a bag brought out of the depository so it was obviously not merely a fabricated story. The legerdermain comes into play in connecting the bag to the gun and thence to Oswald. That is the most apparent conspiracy here.

LMR & BWF perhaps already knew about the bag... especially if Frazier was the one delivering the rifle to the TSBD. They just had to make sure it was pinned on "the rider".

Terry,

It took a very long time for me to realise the significance of your last line.

Its an invention, they made the story up. It's a toatal fabrication in my view.

So yes, they knew about the sack in advance, in their own minds. And they oh so cleverly planted that story within the proceedings of that Friday.

As funny as this may sound, Oswald didn't even need to show up for work that day to be framed. It was IMO a done deal.

He had a lift, and he had a package and he was seen taking it in to work.

Linnie Mae and Frazier said so.

I believe Frazier and Randle did change their respective recollections of the bag size after their initial interviews with authorities

Wesley Frazier’s affidavit 22/11/63

Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a big sack. It must have been about 2' long, and the top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under.

So did Frazier really start out by testifying that the sack was only 2 feet long or was it in fact longer than 2 feet and as he stated, folded up at the top and the rest kind of folded under.

And this from Linnie Mae

FBI Report 23/11/63

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.

IMO just days later and after Oswald was eliminated and Wes had been interrogated by the DPD, they started to change their stories with regards to the sack.

So,

Lets recap,

We have Ruth Paine on her own telling us Lee had left for work from her house on the Friday morning sometime before 7.30am,  Nobody else verified this.

We have Linnie Mae who told us of Lee trudging over to her house at 7.15 with a package in hand, which nobody else confirmed.

And finally we have Buell Wesley Frazier telling us what time Oswald left for work from their place.

And  according to his version of events, how Lee took a package into work in his car, (which nobody else could verify) and how then we are supposed to believe Wesley's  account for Lee's movements in at the parking lot until he was safely deposited to work with a package in hand and seen to enter the building.

Does that work for everyone then?

Mick, Fritz said that when the subject of the package was broached with Oswald, Oswald advised Fritz that all he brought with him on the ride was a lunchbag which was on the front seat. Fritz also goes on to answer a question from Ball that Oswald had intimated to him that Frazier may have recalled another instance that Frazier had picked him up and might be confused.

I am still not sure what to make of all this testimony from Fritz. When Ball presses him about the curtain rod story Fritz is reluctant to recall whether he asked Oswald about it. In fact his whole testimony is littered with lapses of memory and references to notes. I don't think he is telling us the whole truth and I am sure he is throwing around some whoppers too.

I'll be honest with you, Mick. I am not 100% with dismissing the whole ride business. In fact I am probably at a point that I don't know what to believe anymore which btw I am quite comfortable being at. This case never ceases to surprise me and I find that not tying myself to any certainty has held me in good stead.

Keep up the fine work, Mick. Your efforts so far have challenged my preconceptions. I like that.

Paul Francisco Paso at February 14, 2015 at 1:31 AM

Mick, Fritz said that when the subject of the package was broached with Oswald, Oswald advised Fritz that all he brought with him on the ride was a lunchbag which was on the front seat. Fritz also goes on to answer a question from Ball that Oswald had intimated to him that Frazier may have recalled another instance that Frazier had picked him up and might be confused.

I am still not sure what to make of all this testimony from Fritz. When Ball presses him about the curtain rod story Fritz is reluctant to recall whether he asked Oswald about it. In fact his whole testimony is littered with lapses of memory and references to notes. I don't think he is telling us the whole truth and I am sure he is throwing around some whoppers too.

I'll be honest with you, Mick. I am not 100% with dismissing the whole ride business. In fact I am probably at a point that I don't know what to believe anymore which btw I am quite comfortable being at. This case never ceases to surprise me and I find that not tying myself to any certainty has held me in good stead.

Keep up the fine work, Mick. Your efforts so far have challenged my preconceptions. I like that.

Paul,

I completely understand your position. 

What I'm challenging here is the narrative, the story as we have been told.

I do not subscribe any longer to the idea that the events as we've been informed are an accurate reflection of what transpired.

I say, and with good cause that everything is open game. In nearly every instance Oswald seems to have been "inserted" into scenarios which place hime in incriminating circumstances.

I just happen to believe the ride into work with Frazier is one of those.

I also don't believe in the bag, package, or the curtain rods either, if you take them away from the equation its amazing IMO how simple things become.