REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.

Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.

Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.

Notice how Randle can't get the story straight. The "Oswald at the window"  becomes inserted in the wrong place in the different versions.

IMO this isn't just a memory lapse or misremembering, She actually forgets in what order she should tell her story.

The same goes for Wes, he flip flops on many things and forgets whether he remembers seeing the package prior to getting into the car or, as he later settled on "glancing over his shoulder and catching a glimpse" of it.

I don't believe they are simply forgetting, they are suffering from IMO continually trying to recall the events they have invented.

Mick,

Just to refer back briefly to BW Frazier’s body language in the video posted by Colin on page 7 of this thread, it wasn’t until after I submitted my post about it on page 8 that I saw your short post at the bottom of page 7. That’s why I didn’t mention your post in mine.

I think it’s worth noting that we both independently saw a similar significance in Frazier’s body language.

Goban Saor at February 15, 2015 at 4:55 AM

Mick,

Just to refer back briefly to BW Frazier’s body language in the video posted by Colin on page 7 of this thread, it wasn’t until after I submitted my post about it on page 8 that I saw your short post at the bottom of page 7. That’s why I didn’t mention your post in mine.

I think it’s worth noting that we both independently saw a similar significance in Frazier’s body language.

 

And I agree, I have filmed people all of my life, sometimes in similar situations as that we've seen in the you tube video Of Wes.

I immediately recognised  his body language at that particular moment, which we have both independently observed,  as a sign of being deceitful.

That said I'm no expert, but I have seen this many many times before in similar circumstances

Where was Ruth Paine Friday morning around 7.15 am

Mr. JENNER - You awakened when in the morning?

Mrs. PAINE - At 7:30.

Mr. JENNER - And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?

Mrs. PAINE - When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

Mr. JENNER - Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?

Mrs. PAINE - That was all he normally had for breakfast.

Mr. JENNER - A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?

Mrs. PAINE - Instant coffee; yes.

Mr. JENNER - What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?

Mrs. PAINE - It was very normal for him to take coffee.

Mr. JENNER - Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?

Mrs. PAINE - No; she was not.

So lets be clear here, Ruth Paine and only Ruth Paine is the only person who can vouch for her whereabouts at around this time in the morning.

Furthermore she is by her own admission out and about until 11.30am.

Thats interesting!

I'm not sure I'm buying into the sloppiness of the Time Clock. I understand the TSBD might not have run one for the warehouse workers, but, really its still a business.....there had to be some form of accountiblity.

Mrs. PAINE - When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

He had to go and MEET Frazier to catch his ride??? Frazier did not pick him up outside the Paine residence????

And he normally left at 7 for a 15 minute ride to a job that didn't commene until 8???? This is BULLSHIT. 

WTF is going on with these people??? If he was NOT picked up at the Paine residence and going up to the randle residence had never happened previously, where the fuck did he normally get picked up, and how did he and Wes kill three quarters of an hour???

Mick Purdy at February 15, 2015 at 6:00 AM

I'm not sure I'm buying into the sloppiness of the Time Clock. I understand the TSBD might not have run one for the warehouse workers, but, really its still a business.....there had to be some form of accountiblity.

Mick, someone else suggested that such an arrangment could be used in all sorts of ways. That's about the only answer that makes sense outside of just slack business practices. The TSBD may not have been exactly what we are told it was.

Greg at February 15, 2015 at 6:17 AM

Mrs. PAINE - When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

He had to go and MEET Frazier to catch his ride??? Frazier did not pick him up outside the Paine residence????

And he normally left at 7 for a 15 minute ride to a job that didn't commene until 8???? This is BULLSHIT. 

WTF is going on with these people??? If he was NOT picked up at the Paine residence and going up to the randle residence had never happened previously, where the fuck did he normally get picked up, and how did he and Wes kill three quarters of an hour???

I think Greg, you sublimely underlined the explanation.

BULLSHIT ALL OF IT!!!!

The Defence rests your honour!

Greg at February 15, 2015 at 6:19 AM

Mick Purdy at February 15, 2015 at 6:00 AM

I'm not sure I'm buying into the sloppiness of the Time Clock. I understand the TSBD might not have run one for the warehouse workers, but, really its still a business.....there had to be some form of accountiblity.

Mick, someone else suggested that such an arrangment could be used in all sorts of ways. That's about the only answer that makes sense outside of just slack business practices. The TSBD may not have been exactly what we are told it was.

I know Greg, but as with everything else here,

I have a nagging feeling,

Who is it that confirms no time clock,  punch on, or paper log

Truly, Shelley and Aiken?????

Nobody else?

It just a nagging feeling

Greg at February 15, 2015 at 6:19 AM

Mick Purdy at February 15, 2015 at 6:00 AM

I'm not sure I'm buying into the sloppiness of the Time Clock. I understand the TSBD might not have run one for the warehouse workers, but, really its still a business.....there had to be some form of accountiblity.

Mick, someone else suggested that such an arrangment could be used in all sorts of ways. That's about the only answer that makes sense outside of just slack business practices. The TSBD may not have been exactly what we are told it was.

"The TSBD may not have been exactly what we are told it was."

And that, I believe, is at the crux of the entire matter. Everything about the TSBD and the case against Oswald is a charade, a facade, a false front. If we could figure that one out, I think we might make a little more headway. But, of course, that feeling might be wrong...

I worked for a place once upon a time that had very sloppy systems for keeping track of the employees. One of the reasons was so a supervisor could send one of the gang out "on errands" that had nothing to do with the business. So long as the work was done and a profit was made, no one tought much about the issue.

The owner turned a blind eye - who knows if he was even suspicious - the supervisor made a bit on the side and the employees sent on the errands were able to draw a steady paycheck as well as bonuses from the "side work". I don't know if this is anything similar to what was going on at the TSBD.

Mick Purdy at February 15, 2015 at 7:24 AM

Greg at February 15, 2015 at 6:19 AM

Mick Purdy at February 15, 2015 at 6:00 AM

I'm not sure I'm buying into the sloppiness of the Time Clock. I understand the TSBD might not have run one for the warehouse workers, but, really its still a business.....there had to be some form of accountiblity.

Mick, someone else suggested that such an arrangment could be used in all sorts of ways. That's about the only answer that makes sense outside of just slack business practices. The TSBD may not have been exactly what we are told it was.

I know Greg, but as with everything else here,

I have a nagging feeling,

Who is it that confirms no time clock,  punch on, or paper log

Truly, Shelley and Aiken?????

Nobody else?

It just a nagging feeling

I think that a factory/warehouse operation not having a time clock for its workers in 1963 is most unusual. In a reference I cited earlier, it said by the 1920's most factories and offices were using time recorder machines as a replacement for handwritten logs. I know what Truly and Shelley said they did, but do I believe them? Can I believe anything they say? Can I believe that the TSBD didn't follow standard industry time accounting practices back then just because some shady fucks say otherwise?

If they had telephones and other standard business systems, they sure as hell should have had a time clock. This is just another thing that doesn't fit with me unless independently proven otherwise.

How are the wages of hourly paid staff calculated without a timing device?. The Warehouse i work in issues all members of staff with an electronic fob. At the start and finish of each shift you are required to swipe in and out (also at break time). It's really just a modern day version of a punch clock. Where the TSBD employees wages paid on the basis of wether Shelley saw them or not? That's a little difficult to swallow.

Jarman confirmed to the HSCA that there was no clock punching. But there was no further exploration on that except that they entered and prepared for work. 

Then you had Dougherty starting at 7 am and Piper starting at 10 am but by his own admission finishing any time between 7 and 8. So I guess they just took their word on the exact times?

Greg at February 15, 2015 at 2:52 PM

Jarman confirmed to the HSCA that there was no clock punching. But there was no further exploration on that except that they entered and prepared for work. 

Then you had Dougherty starting at 7 am and Piper starting at 10 am but by his own admission finishing any time between 7 and 8. So I guess they just took their word on the exact times?

It looks like they didn't Greg. This is the timesheet for the week of the assassination.

Seems to have been filled out in one go and by the same person who I assume is Shelley.

I use to work in a factory some time ago and there was no punch clock or real system but I was getting paid under the table. No tax and no real documentation.

Greg, 

Haven't we have some discussion about Don Felts Truett before?  Wasn't his "termination" from the TSBD the week before the assassination?

Lee

Don't know if we have. Possible. 

He is no doubt the person mentioned here:

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe November 15th, or something like that.

There's the mention of "lay offs" again.  Hiring new people while your experienced employees are laying floor?  Yeah, right.

Lee Farley at February 15, 2015 at 3:37 PM

There's the mention of "lay offs" again.  Hiring new people while your experienced employees are laying floor?  Yeah, right.

Exactly my reaction.

And at the same time you're paying Oswald to fill orders, one of your experienced order fillers is spending his time up "shooting the breeze" with the floor layers -- with the supervisor right there, apparently okay with that.

The TSBD was one amazingly relaxed employer.

Except if your name is Oswald.

Then you will have the Vice President complaining to the press that "Of course he [Oswald] and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building..."

Take that Oswald! You president killer, you! You had no permission to leave the building during your lunch hour, you rotten commie fink!

Randle and his where abouts Friday morning:

This report was not followed up until January 21 when Randle was interviewed by Special Agent Warren de Brueys.  

Notably absent in the report is what time he left Irving that day to drive to Austin, (it is about a 3 hour drive, so the latest he could have left to arrive at 7:00pm is about 4:00pm).

Whether he had business to conduct that day in Austin and whom that business was with. 

A more elaborate reason for having telephoned his brother in Irving (moreso than "Business reasons") and what they specifically spoke about

And finally what time he arrived home after his flight from Austin.

There's just no accounting for Randles movements in any serious way until 7.00pm Friday evening 22/11/63

That means in reality, there is no accounting for his movemments Thursday evening, Thursday night and all of Friday up until 7.00pm.

Q: Did Jack Dougherty "open up" in the mornings as part of his "extra chores" ?

Q: And if so would this have meant he had access to the buildings keys outside of normal business hours.