REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Mick,

I have been silent about the issue of who took Oswald to work, but I think this is an absolutely fascinating thread. Although I am not 100% convinced yet that it was Randle who took Oswald to work that morning, I think that you and others have made a pretty convincing case for it. Like Paul said, keep up the fine work!

One thing I am wondering about... Did the employees of the TSBD use a punchclock to show when they got to work? Did they use handwritten timecards?

How did they know when people actually got to work on any given day? How did they know how much to pay them? (Did Joe Molina have responsibility for the payroll?)

Is there any evidence, statement, hearsay, or what have you, intimating that Oswald arrived some time later than BWF? Perhaps, even, much later.

Terry Martin at February 14, 2015 at 10:19 AM

One thing I am wondering about... Did the employees of the TSBD use a punchclock to show when they got to work? Did they use handwritten timecards?

How did they know when people actually got to work on any given day? How did they know how much to pay them? (Did Joe Molina have responsibility for the payroll?)

Is there any evidence, statement, hearsay, or what have you, intimating that Oswald arrived some time later than BWF? Perhaps, even, much later.

Terry, if you can believe Truly -- they had zip. Nada. No way Jose of knowing who got in when, who got back from lunch late, who left work early. 

Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?

Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon. His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

They were very caring and trusting employers who loved their minimum wage slaves dearly.

Not having a time clock at the TSBD doesn't seem plausible.

According to this source: < http://www.btrs.co.uk/clock-card-history/ >

"By the 1920's most factories and offices were using time recorder machines as a replacement for handwritten logs."

1963 was forty friggin years after "by the 1920s."

But even if Truly's TSBD was still in the dark ages, time accounting-wise, there should have been handwritten logs of peoples' time. I say should have been.

Yeah, you're so right. Very caring they were.

And as soon as Oswald was arrested they all exchanges glances, scratched their heads, and asked, "Lee Harvey who?!?"

"Nope, never saw him... EVER."

Terry Martin at February 14, 2015 at 10:19 AM

One thing I am wondering about... Did the employees of the TSBD use a punchclock to show when they got to work? Did they use handwritten timecards?

How did they know when people actually got to work on any given day? How did they know how much to pay them? (Did Joe Molina have responsibility for the payroll?)

Is there any evidence, statement, hearsay, or what have you, intimating that Oswald arrived some time later than BWF? Perhaps, even, much later.

There was no time clock at the TSBD. It was Shelly's responsibility to notice who was present in the morning and afternoon. He merely noticed the men in his wanderings and checked them off when he noticed them. Anyone could be absent for long periods of time under this system. 

Noticing the men in their wanderings. Checking them off. Hit or miss accountability.

It figures.

Colin, thats a system which, if you were of a mind, could easily be abused in a variety of ways.

Mick Purdy at February 14, 2015 at 8:13 PM

So I would imagine, the TSBD as a business, accountable you would assume to its stakeholders, even in 1963 would have had systems in place to account for it's TSBD employees start and finish times. One would have assumed that as foreman, William Shelley who had been charged with accounting for the warehouse workers would have been positioned at the rear door entrance for their arrivals and departures. If not Shelley then somebody else in his place. I would assume.

Would I be assuming to much then.

Hasan Yusuf at February 14, 2015 at 8:50 AM

Mick,

I have been silent about the issue of who took Oswald to work, but I think this is an absolutely fascinating thread. Although I am not 100% convinced yet that it was Randle who took Oswald to work that morning, I think that you and others have made a pretty convincing case for it. Like Paul said, keep up the fine work!

Randle is my bet, but I'm in no way predisposed either.

I just don't believe it was Wes.

Who knows it could've even been Ruth. But I'd bet my left testi its not Frazier.

And if its not Frazier, then Wes and his sister lied and they had to have done this for a very significant reason IMO.

Wasn't Jack Daugherty (sp?) the fellow that unlocked the doors in the morning? Perhaps he was the one who was "positioned at the rear door entrance".

Randle WC Testimony,

Mr. BALL. The next morning did you get breakfast for Wesley, you, and your mother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; mother and my children.

Mr. BALL. And you were packing his lunch, too, were you?

No mention of Bill.

A sleep in?.

left for Austin early?

A few errands perhaps?

Colin Crow at February 14, 2015 at 7:01 PM

Terry Martin at February 14, 2015 at 10:19 AM

One thing I am wondering about... Did the employees of the TSBD use a punchclock to show when they got to work? Did they use handwritten timecards?

How did they know when people actually got to work on any given day? How did they know how much to pay them? (Did Joe Molina have responsibility for the payroll?)

Is there any evidence, statement, hearsay, or what have you, intimating that Oswald arrived some time later than BWF? Perhaps, even, much later.

There was no time clock at the TSBD. It was Shelly's responsibility to notice who was present in the morning and afternoon. He merely noticed the men in his wanderings and checked them off when he noticed them. Anyone could be absent for long periods of time under this system. 

I've never been satisfied with this side of it. They were allowed to break early for lunch, no clocks to punch on entry or exit... and there is the equally puzzling system of hiring and firing...

Truly:

What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.

And I told Mrs.---she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."

Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.

And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

----------------------------

 

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

Really, how great was the need for Oswald... even with the floor laying (which Williams shows to be a bogus excuse for men to up there, and to hire Oswald)> here's what Norman said...

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you help them?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

 By the way... Maxwell of the HSCA asked norman if they punched a clock, signed in or "just go in the building and prepare for work". Norman replied, "Right". We are left to assume he is saying "right" to that last option.

According to Williams, the sole reason for the floor laying was so that their kind-hearted slave owners didn't have to shed any slaves.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. yes, sir.

So much for WC apologist Jerry Organ's claims that the floor laying was urgently needed because oil left by previous occupants was ruining the boxes!

But wait. There's more. The altruism of the TSBD was newly acquired just in time for the motorcade. Previously, they had not blinked at laying people off and then rehiring them during the busy season.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I Just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it' is rush season he calls you back.

Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

------------------------------------------

FWIW, Norman also told Maxwell of the HSCA that Givens had told everyone either that day, or on the Monday, that he had seen Owald riding up and down the elevators all morning, but was never carrying any stock... strange how no one else noticed this...

Maxwell also asked Norman if he had been following all the reports about the picture in the paper with some claiming it was Oswald. Maxwell asked Norman who he thought it was. He had no doubt it was Lavelady. Take that Cinque. 

Was Maxwell suspicious about the lifts?

Norman on Lee and Wes... "I don't know how many times he rode to work with him..."

Q: Did you see them coming to work a number of times? That you can recall"

Norman: Well I see them after they got in the building. Just for them was driving [sic] up out there dring out on the parking lot or something like that.

Maxwell then asks if he remembers Wes being asked about his rider... to which Norman responsds "no"... but Norman was probably not in yet, or was at the Elm St warehouse already himself.

Then there is Wes' claim of getting his job through Massey's Employment agency in Irving - while his sister seemed to be under the impression he had got the job himself after she tipped him that it was a good place for people "with not much educuation".

It is possible, but unlikely, that the TSBD used an employment agency in Irving. There is testimony that someone at the TEC scrambled to find out if he had referred Oswald.... indicating that the TSBD did use the TEC. And having worked in the industry, that does seem more likely - and though they could possibly have used the TEC as well as some private companies, it is my experience that places like TSBD would be more inclined to use agencies close by. Using low rent labor often comes with unreliability, lack of transport etc... and so prefer people living in the immediate area OR who can demonstrate they have reliable transport. There is no evidence that Truly even asked how he was going to communute from Irving - which is where he said he was living... 

Terry Martin at February 14, 2015 at 9:28 PM

Wasn't Jack Daugherty (sp?) the fellow that unlocked the doors in the morning? Perhaps he was the one who was "positioned at the rear door entrance".

Yes Terry,

Jack Dougherty.

7.00am starts for Jack, he had special things to attend to, in the basement.

And yes if not Shelley, then Jack is my tip.

But as far as I can glean, he was really only ever asked about Oswald entering the building in the morning.

Mick Purdy at February 14, 2015 at 9:43 PM

Terry Martin at February 14, 2015 at 9:28 PM

Wasn't Jack Daugherty (sp?) the fellow that unlocked the doors in the morning? Perhaps he was the one who was "positioned at the rear door entrance".

Yes Terry,

Jack Dougherty.

7.00am starts for Jack, he had special things to attend to, in the basement.

And yes if not Shelley, then Jack is my tip.

But as far as I can glean, he was really only ever asked about Oswald entering the building in the morning.

I wonder if Jack was charged with opening the doors in the mornings too.

If he was, would that mean he had access to a set of TSBD keys outside of working hours.

Greg at February 14, 2015 at 9:41 PM

Colin Crow at February 14, 2015 at 7:01 PM

Terry Martin at February 14, 2015 at 10:19 AM

One thing I am wondering about... Did the employees of the TSBD use a punchclock to show when they got to work? Did they use handwritten timecards?

How did they know when people actually got to work on any given day? How did they know how much to pay them? (Did Joe Molina have responsibility for the payroll?)

Is there any evidence, statement, hearsay, or what have you, intimating that Oswald arrived some time later than BWF? Perhaps, even, much later.

There was no time clock at the TSBD. It was Shelly's responsibility to notice who was present in the morning and afternoon. He merely noticed the men in his wanderings and checked them off when he noticed them. Anyone could be absent for long periods of time under this system. 

I've never been satisfied with this side of it. They were allowed to break early for lunch, no clocks to punch on entry or exit... and there is the equally puzzling system of hiring and firing...

Truly:

What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.

And I told Mrs.---she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."

Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.

And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

----------------------------

 

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

Really, how great was the need for Oswald... even with the floor laying (which Williams shows to be a bogus excuse for men to up there, and to hire Oswald)> here's what Norman said...

 

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you help them?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

 By the way... Maxwell of the HSCA asked norman if they punched a clock, signed in or "just go in the building and prepare for work". Norman replied, "Right". We are left to assume he is saying "right" to that last option.

According to Williams, the sole reason for the floor laying was so that their kind-hearted slave owners didn't have to shed any slaves.

 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. yes, sir.

So much for WC apologist Jerry Organ's claims that the floor laying was urgently needed because oil left by previous occupants was ruining the boxes!

But wait. There's more. The altruism of the TSBD was newly acquired just in time for the motorcade. Previously, they had not blinked at laying people off and then rehiring them during the busy season.

 

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I Just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it' is rush season he calls you back.

Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

------------------------------------------

FWIW, Norman also told Maxwell of the HSCA that Givens had told everyone either that day, or on the Monday, that he had seen Owald riding up and down the elevators all morning, but was never carrying any stock... strange how no one else noticed this...

Maxwell also asked Norman if he had been following all the reports about the picture in the paper with some claiming it was Oswald. Maxwell asked Norman who he thought it was. He had no doubt it was Lavelady. Take that Cinque. 

Was Maxwell suspicious about the lifts?

Norman on Lee and Wes... "I don't know how many times he rode to work with him..."

Q: Did you see them coming to work a number of times? That you can recall"

Norman: Well I see them after they got in the building. Just for them was driving [sic] up out there dring out on the parking lot or something like that.

Maxwell then asks if he remembers Wes being asked about his rider... to which Norman responsds "no"... but Norman was probably not in yet, or was at the Elm St warehouse already himself.

Then there is Wes' claim of getting his job through Massey's Employment agency in Irving - while his sister seemed to be under the impression he had got the job himself after she tipped him that it was a good place for people "with not much educuation".

It is possible, but unlikely, that the TSBD used an employment agency in Irving. There is testimony that someone at the TEC scrambled to find out if he had referred Oswald.... indicating that the TSBD did use the TEC. And having worked in the industry, that does seem more likely - and though they could possibly have used the TEC as well as some private companies, it is my experience that places like TSBD would be more inclined to use agencies close by. Using low rent labor often comes with unreliability, lack of transport etc... and so prefer people living in the immediate area OR who can demonstrate they have reliable transport. There is no evidence that Truly even asked how he was going to communute from Irving - which is where he said he was living... 

What we have here Greg,

is powerful and IMO persuasive argument to suggest Oswald was inserted into the TSBD workforce at a time when as the testimony implies, it was not required.

Now all this leads us back to the Viper's nest in Irving, as far as I can tell.

Ruth Paine WC testimony:

Mrs. PAINE - And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call--

Mr. JENNER - Was Marina present during this discussion?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER - Did she understand the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE - It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.

Mr. JENNER - You were translating for her?

Mrs. PAINE - I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone--

Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, please.

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.

Mr. JENNER - But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE - I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said--

Mr. JENNER - You mean the call was transferred by the operator?

Mrs. PAINE - To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.

Mr. JENNER - Which made sense.

Mrs. PAINE - Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.

Mr. JENNER - Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - Only the one?

Mrs. PAINE - Only the one.

Mr. JENNER - What was the date of this call?

Mrs. PAINE - Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.

Mr. JENNER - What day of the week is October 14?