REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Hi Richard,

just wanted to say that it is a pleasure seeing you posting here, your work at EF in 2013 esp the rationale and method of deduction along side Sean M. has been of great help.

Thanks for that!

Richard and Andrej,

Yes my sense of it also is that Frazier is standing at the front of the top landing. Given the way he towers above everyone else in the doorway, he has to be standing on the top level. Also it would be natural for him to be standing at the front of the landing so as to see as much as possible of what was happening westward along Elm Street. His standing at the front of the landing would also explain his height in relation to the top of the door frame – his seeming taller than his actual 6 ft in that respect is probably explained by the movie camera being at a lower plane than he was.

That last factor would also explain the exaggerated height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald as PM seems to be standing at the back of the landing.

Another factor further exaggerating that apparent height difference would be the foreshortening effect of the camera being closer to Frazier than to PM.

In summary, as I previously said, there are two factors that would explain the apparently excessive height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald: (a) Frazier being closer to the camera causing PM/Oswald to be foreshortened and (b) the camera being at a low level relative to the TSBD doorway landing.

Andrej Stancak at September 25, 2015 at 3:15 PM

Richard Hocking at September 25, 2015 at 9:00 AM

Andrej Stancak at September 25, 2015 at 3:50 AM

Richard Hocking at September 24, 2015 at 10:01 AM

Andrej Stancak at September 24, 2015 at 8:22 AM

... And this should be the corect link to the PM standing in the shadow.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/photos/album?albumid=15864860

Hello Andrej,

PMs position in relation to shadows has been a topic of concern for sometime.  Your use of 3D software to mockup the entrance could be a valuable addition.

I agree with Barto that the west wall shadow on your image looks to be a tad slim.

A few observations and items that may be of use to you:

-  There are two sets of shadows to take into account.  The shadow of the West Wall of the Entrance, and the shadow cast by the roof of the entrance.   

- solar calculator shows Sun azimuth of 184.9° and altitude of 37° at 12:30 in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.

- obviously having the correct dimensions of the Entrance alcove and the placement of PM are essential to determine his position in relation to shadow lines.

- Allen began shooting photos before 12:40 near the Grassy knoll.  Around 12:42-43 he begins taking pictures of the crowd and police at the Entrance to the TSBD.

- Murray also has a good photo showing the shadow of the entrance roof cast on the East Wall of the Entrance in one of his photos taken right around 12:40-45.

Good luck with your project.

Thanks, Richard, for your useful comments. I will prepare and post some pictured showing how the shadows cast by objects in front of the TSBD would match my model. That would sort out the problem whether  GoogleEarth provides accurate predictions of shadows. If so, the only next possible mistake could be committed by misrotating the whole 3D model while it is being placed onto GoogleEarth. And this is a tricky thing to do because the GoogleEarth buildings are photographed from top a and their flattened contours are wider then the size of the building itself. Naturally, one compares whether the edges of doorway are where they should be, however, a small mistake here may cause large mistakes if lines are extended to a long distance, as shadows are.

I have reviewed all TSBD images available in Robin Unger's gallery and on Mary Ferrell website and compared them with the 3D model and GoogleEarth predictions, and found a fair correspondence. However, we are all primed to see the shadow to be a bit wide-angled (reaching more to the center of the doorway)  because we only saw the doorway shadows in the post-assassination photographs Twenty minutes already shifts the shadow angle visibly. The exact time when these pictures have been taken is not known, and it clearly varies across pictures. The famous picture with three ladies on steps as they leave TSBD was taken, acccording to my model, about at 14.30. Some pictures show detectives with the rifle or chicken bag+bottle, and those pictures show nice shadows but they clearly were taken after 1PM. My point is that  the 12.30-shadows must look sharper ("narrower") than those seen in post-assassination pictures and that my verifications remainl hypothetical whatever I do.

Andrej,

Another very useful site for Photos is Portal to Texas History.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/

Do a search on William Allen.  It contains all of his surviving photos taken in Dealey plaza, in very high resolution.  I believe Robin Unger links to some of these photos on his site.

For a chronology of photos taken, I have used Clint Bradfords site in the past.  I believe his time stamps on some of the Allen photos to be very close.

http://www.jfk-info.com/photos1.htm

So depending on which photo you are referencing, it could be taken 10 minutes after the assassination, or as you pointed out, it could be two hours later.

In your post, you wrote,

"... My point is that the 12.30-shadows must look sharper ("narrower") than those seen in post-assassination pictures ..."

I agree with you that the shadow cast by the West Wall of the Entrance is at its "thickest" at 12:30 and becomes narrower as the the Sun continues moving Westward.  The same logic applies to the shadow cast by the ceiling of the Entrance.  Its shadow line in the Entrance is lower at 12:30 and then continues to rise as the Sun sinks gradually lower throughout the afternoon.

One of the keys for me is to look at Frazier in the Darnell stills.  We know he is standing at the edge of the porch and the first step down (as he stated in his testimony), next to the middle rail.  You can clearly see the shadow line of the Entrance ceiling across his chest.  If he were standing back 2-3 feet, in the NW corner for instance, the ceiling shadow line would be much lower on his body.

Richard, I am aware of BWF's claim for WC he stood on the 1st step below the top landing, however, this may not be the truth. As per his location in Darnell, Frazier stands, in my opinion  and I may be very wrong, about 60 cm (2 feet) infront of the door plane, on the top landing, the door was open, and Frazier controlled the entrance to the TSBD through the west part of the doorway. Baker must have pushed him aside to be able to get into the building, and I think he even testified about pushing few people aside while he was running into the building. A different story is whether Frazier stood at a place where we see him in Darnell also during the shooting. I think rather not but have no proof. By the way, as the door was open in Darnell, it is very likely that somebody squeezed into the building right after the shooting, Otis Williams would be the the first candidate.

I think I misunderstood Richard as if saying that Frazier stood on the 1st step, Richard had it right, my previous comment was unnecessary, sorry for that.

Barto at September 25, 2015 at 4:51 PM

Hi Richard,

just wanted to say that it is a pleasure seeing you posting here, your work at EF in 2013 esp the rationale and method of deduction along side Sean M. has been of great help.

Thanks for that!

Thanks Barto,

It was an exciting thread to participate in with Sean as he was putting together his excellent scenario.

I have followed your work here and look forward to your additional contributions on PM.

Good Stuff!

Goban Saor at September 25, 2015 at 5:02 PM

Richard and Andrej,

Yes my sense of it also is that Frazier is standing at the front of the top landing. Given the way he towers above everyone else in the doorway, he has to be standing on the top level. Also it would be natural for him to be standing at the front of the landing so as to see as much as possible of what was happening westward along Elm Street. His standing at the front of the landing would also explain his height in relation to the top of the door frame – his seeming taller than his actual 6 ft in that respect is probably explained by the movie camera being at a lower plane than he was.

That last factor would also explain the exaggerated height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald as PM seems to be standing at the back of the landing.

Another factor further exaggerating that apparent height difference would be the foreshortening effect of the camera being closer to Frazier than to PM.

In summary, as I previously said, there are two factors that would explain the apparently excessive height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald: (a) Frazier being closer to the camera causing PM/Oswald to be foreshortened and (b) the camera being at a low level relative to the TSBD doorway landing.

 

Goban,

You are hitting on all cylinders from where I sit.  Completely agree with all you posted.  I would add a third factor to your last paragraph.  While BWF looks to be standing straight erect, I don't believe the same is true of PM.

Richard Hocking at September 25, 2015 at 7:33 PM

Barto at September 25, 2015 at 4:51 PM

Hi Richard,

just wanted to say that it is a pleasure seeing you posting here, your work at EF in 2013 esp the rationale and method of deduction along side Sean M. has been of great help.

Thanks for that!

Thanks Barto,

It was an exciting thread to participate in with Sean as he was putting together his excellent scenario.

I have followed your work here and look forward to your additional contributions on PM.

Good Stuff!

Thank you, so do I, cannot wait to finish it

Excellent discussion!!

I posted before about the door.
It was closed in Darnell as the frame top of the door top are together.
Each has metal strip, door top and frame. If it was open we would see that area as half as thick. Its not.
I was hoping it was open as the door handle would be in a position (if more than 90*) to reflect near PM's position.
This is not the case. And not the cause of either the reflection or flash.

I agree BWF moved from steps(sitting?) to standing on the landing and was against the railing (right side looking at TSBD from Elm) giving away his full height. As we don't have film of Baker's dash up the steps all this is conjecture. Did Baker stop and speak with Truly, did Baker charge up the left side of the railing, that is where ladies are walking up the steps in front of him, right passed PM.
Did Baker charge up right side of railing by BWF.
We don't know.
No one admits to being shoved out of the way by a white helmeted motorcycle officer on the steps that I have been able to locate. Why would no one mention this but Baker?
BWF did not even see Baker so how was he shoved out of the way by him?

One of the scenarios is that Baker went up the stairs and chatted to Oswald/Frazier before that racist Roy Samson Truly took over..But also don't forget that Jarman's HSCA testimony stated that he was prevented from going out by the same policeman who stopped Oswald from leaving (TRuly vouched for him so he culd go), as told by Billy Lovelady. I sincerely doubt that Truly and Baker went up the stairs straight away, they had a little communion on the first floor for prolly 3-4 mins.

Did he not order Shelly to guard the elevators.......

Too close to give the jig up

Right on Bart! Shelley wouldn't be there to guard anything. He was down Elm Ext. seeing the excitement there.
Whole thing is a crock of beans.

Think Baker is saying he shoved his way through the crowd lining the street not people on the steps.
As I said find me one witness whom says they were shoved on those steps by Baker.

Cheers!!!

Ed Ledoux at September 26, 2015 at 4:01 AM

Right on Bart! Shelley wouldn't be there to guard anything. He was down Elm Ext. seeing the excitement there.
Whole thing is a crock of beans.

Think Baker is saying he shoved his way through the crowd lining the street not people on the steps.
As I said find me one witness whom says they were shoved on those steps by Baker.

Cheers!!!

Hi Ed (chk skype  )

I think he did not go up there until Shelly was back, but I could be wrong. They weren't gone that long if I recall correctly.

Here is something else.

Pauline Sanders, I find it hard to believe she went out more than an hr before the motorcade arrived.

Surely a typo.

Ed, I aoplogise for mixing my speculations with facts. I cannot prove Baker did push Frazier while dashing into the building, however, I see Frazier standing firmly in Baker's way. I have recontsructed approximate position of Frazier (setting his body height to 182 cm). As per open door, all pictures show the door opened to the doorway. However, I cannot dismiss the possibility that the door possibly alo opened to the inside. I would be grateful if somebody would check whether this would be possible. I have highlighted with a yellow ellipse what I interpret as the angle of the door with door frame when door is opened to the inside. You are right that Frazier might have stepped back just 1 seconds before Baker approached him too close, which is not captured on Darnell's images. Thanks for helping me to realize this.

Ed Ledoux at September 26, 2015 at 3:04 AM

Excellent discussion!!

I posted before about the door.
It was closed in Darnell as the frame top of the door top are together.
Each has metal strip, door top and frame. If it was open we would see that area as half as thick. Its not.
I was hoping it was open as the door handle would be in a position (if more than 90*) to reflect near PM's position.
This is not the case. And not the cause of either the reflection or flash.

I agree BWF moved from steps(sitting?) to standing on the landing and was against the railing (right side looking at TSBD from Elm) giving away his full height. As we don't have film of Baker's dash up the steps all this is conjecture. Did Baker stop and speak with Truly, did Baker charge up the left side of the railing, that is where ladies are walking up the steps in front of him, right passed PM.
Did Baker charge up right side of railing by BWF.
We don't know.
No one admits to being shoved out of the way by a white helmeted motorcycle officer on the steps that I have been able to locate. Why would no one mention this but Baker?
BWF did not even see Baker so how was he shoved out of the way by him?

BWF did not even see Baker so how was he shoved out of the way by him?

BWF did see PM though you can take that to the Bank!  

Mick, would you not agree that Frazier gazed in direction from which Baker was approaching the door? Frazier did see PM (Oswad), and also Baker. However, by giving this detail in his testimony, he could have been asked further details of this encounter, and those might lead e.g. to reconstruction of the scene. Frazier was closely supervised in his testimony. I think this has ben discussed on differen forums and here too many times. As a result, I would not believe Frazier saying he did not see Baker.

Richard Hocking at September 25, 2015 at 7:40 PM

Goban Saor at September 25, 2015 at 5:02 PM

Richard and Andrej,

Yes my sense of it also is that Frazier is standing at the front of the top landing. Given the way he towers above everyone else in the doorway, he has to be standing on the top level. Also it would be natural for him to be standing at the front of the landing so as to see as much as possible of what was happening westward along Elm Street. His standing at the front of the landing would also explain his height in relation to the top of the door frame – his seeming taller than his actual 6 ft in that respect is probably explained by the movie camera being at a lower plane than he was.

That last factor would also explain the exaggerated height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald as PM seems to be standing at the back of the landing.

Another factor further exaggerating that apparent height difference would be the foreshortening effect of the camera being closer to Frazier than to PM.

In summary, as I previously said, there are two factors that would explain the apparently excessive height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald: (a) Frazier being closer to the camera causing PM/Oswald to be foreshortened and (b) the camera being at a low level relative to the TSBD doorway landing.

 

Goban,

You are hitting on all cylinders from where I sit.  Completely agree with all you posted.  I would add a third factor to your last paragraph.  While BWF looks to be standing straight erect, I don't believe the same is true of PM.

Yes, I agree, Richard. PM/Oswald leaning against the doorway wall could make a further difference of anything up to two inches. (This calculation is based on empirical testing involving the present writer who is 5 feet 9 ½ inches tall. The effect could be even greater for a man less sturdily built than I such as Oswald.)

My estimate of the effects of the various factors in the illusory great height difference between Frazier and PM/Oswald is as follows:

Perspective/foreshortening: 4 inches (This is based on Frazier being 4 feet nearer the camera than PM)*

Low camera level relative to the top of Frazier’s head: 4 inches (or possibly even more).

PM leaning against the wall: 2 inches.

The actual difference in height between Frazier and Oswald: 3 inches.

The total effect of these factors is 13 inches. Allowing for a margin of error of 3 inches still leaves 10 inches. This would easily account for PM/Oswald’s disproportionately diminutive stature compared to Frazier.

*This estimate is based on the following calculation: 4 (number of feet beyond BWF that PM is standing) divided by 70 (number of feet of BWF from camera) equals 0.0571428. Multiplying this by 72 (height of BWF in inches) equals 4.1 inches approx.

Or in standard mathematical format: 4 ÷ 70 = 0.0571428 × 72 = 4.11428

Andrej Stancak at September 26, 2015 at 6:50 AM

Mick, would you not agree that Frazier gazed in direction from which Baker was approaching the door? Frazier did see PM (Oswad), and also Baker. However, by giving this detail in his testimony, he could have been asked further details of this encounter, and those might lead e.g. to reconstruction of the scene. Frazier was closely supervised in his testimony. I think this has ben discussed on differen forums and here too many times. As a result, I would not believe Frazier saying he did not see Baker.

Andrej,

Looking at the Darnell footage as moving pictures, not as one single frame, I'm left with a sense that Frazier looked at PM, maybe even conversing, as for looking at Baker I'm not sure.

I know I'm flogging the horse here but to my mind there is no way on earth that Frazier does not know who is next to him.

You know, the moment everyone describes as that moment in life you never forget, the moment in time, when and where and who you were with when JFK was assassinated. Most, well nearly all can remember. Strange Wesley has trouble and so to does Bush Sn and Richard Nixon. Must have been one of those days.

Seriously Wes knows who PM is....for me thats a given. How to pry that out of him is another hurdle.

Did he look at Baker, I'm not sure.....but its entirely possible. 

Mick Purdy at September 27, 2015 at 1:09 PM

Andrej Stancak at September 26, 2015 at 6:50 AM

Mick, would you not agree that Frazier gazed in direction from which Baker was approaching the door? Frazier did see PM (Oswad), and also Baker. However, by giving this detail in his testimony, he could have been asked further details of this encounter, and those might lead e.g. to reconstruction of the scene. Frazier was closely supervised in his testimony. I think this has ben discussed on differen forums and here too many times. As a result, I would not believe Frazier saying he did not see Baker.

Andrej,

Looking at the Darnell footage as moving pictures, not as one single frame, I'm left with a sense that Frazier looked at PM, maybe even conversing, as for looking at Baker I'm not sure.

I know I'm flogging the horse here but to my mind there is no way on earth that Frazier does not know who is next to him.

You know, the moment everyone describes as that moment in life you never forget, the moment in time, when and where and who you were with when JFK was assassinated. Most, well nearly all can remember. Strange Wesley has trouble and so to does Bush Sn and Richard Nixon. Must have been one of those days.

Seriously Wes knows who PM is....for me thats a given. How to pry that out of him is another hurdle.

Did he look at Baker, I'm not sure.....but its entirely possible. 

Mick, I cannot agree more with you that Frazier knew who PM was. Indirectly, since he suppressed this knoweledge, one can read it as PM=Oswald as revealing this fact  would be the worst scenario for the perpetrators, which Frazier helped to avoid.  I wonder, however, whether his position in Darnell was that casual-random. He was not there during shooting as neither Altgens6 nor Wiegman shows it. So, he moved quickly to that spot, assumed a passive-guarding posture with his arms crossed as he was barring people from entering. Well, there was a good reason for it as the lift with asssassins from the 5th floor needed some time to land in the first floor. Here, Richard Gilbride's clever "Elevator escale theory" on ROKC Net is a very likely scenario, counting with collaboration of several TSBD employees. The escape theory could well include Frazier's obstruction of the main entrance at least for a minute or so. Truly was OK  Baker could not be stopped.

To follow up the open door story, Richard Gilbride's article also states that Baker pushed the door IN, so the glass door could open both ways. I can  see an angle between the door and  the outer frame in Dranell still in post 25. It is true that the door was not fully open if it was open at all, just a bit. If the door could open also into the lobby, people (PM) could have entered the doorway anytime during shooting without being spotted. This would not be possible if the door opened only to the doorway as he would likely have hit people standing on the top landing. Does it make sense?

Andrej Stancak at September 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM

Mick Purdy at September 27, 2015 at 1:09 PM

Andrej Stancak at September 26, 2015 at 6:50 AM

Mick, would you not agree that Frazier gazed in direction from which Baker was approaching the door? Frazier did see PM (Oswad), and also Baker. However, by giving this detail in his testimony, he could have been asked further details of this encounter, and those might lead e.g. to reconstruction of the scene. Frazier was closely supervised in his testimony. I think this has ben discussed on differen forums and here too many times. As a result, I would not believe Frazier saying he did not see Baker.

Andrej,

Looking at the Darnell footage as moving pictures, not as one single frame, I'm left with a sense that Frazier looked at PM, maybe even conversing, as for looking at Baker I'm not sure.

I know I'm flogging the horse here but to my mind there is no way on earth that Frazier does not know who is next to him.

You know, the moment everyone describes as that moment in life you never forget, the moment in time, when and where and who you were with when JFK was assassinated. Most, well nearly all can remember. Strange Wesley has trouble and so to does Bush Sn and Richard Nixon. Must have been one of those days.

Seriously Wes knows who PM is....for me thats a given. How to pry that out of him is another hurdle.

Did he look at Baker, I'm not sure.....but its entirely possible. 

Mick, I cannot agree more with you that Frazier knew who PM was. Indirectly, since he suppressed this knoweledge, one can read it as PM=Oswald as revealing this fact  would be the worst scenario for the perpetrators, which Frazier helped to avoid.  I wonder, however, whether his position in Darnell was that casual-random. He was not there during shooting as neither Altgens6 nor Wiegman shows it. So, he moved quickly to that spot, assumed a passive-guarding posture with his arms crossed as he was barring people from entering. Well, there was a good reason for it as the lift with asssassins from the 5th floor needed some time to land in the first floor. Here, Richard Gilbride's clever "Elevator escale theory" on ROKC Net is a very likely scenario, counting with collaboration of several TSBD employees. The escape theory could well include Frazier's obstruction of the main entrance at least for a minute or so. Truly was OK  Baker could not be stopped.

After giving it one more thought, I think that Frazier's blockade role seems unlikely - people could easily enter through east side of of the doorway bypassing Frazier altogether. I am becoming a bit paranoid as far as Frazier is concerned.

For what it’s worth, there are probably flaws in one element – the perspective element – of my calculations regarding the apparently great difference in height between PM and BWF. I won’t derail the current discussion by belabouring those flaws here. Suffice it to say that, in the manner of the Tipsy Coachman legal principle, a correct method of calculation would not significantly change the outcome – if anything it would probably further strengthen my argument.

http://ask.metafilter.com/122281/3D-GeometryFilter-Is-there-a-mathematical-equation-that-defines-relative-lengths-of-objects-at-different-depths-of-field-for-humans

No worries Andrej,
Here you can see the door is closed, the thickness of both frames (door and entryway) at the top.

Now I have looked through the galleries and did not find an image with the door swung in, only out( open outward) and only a few degrees past 90* maybe 120* max and not enough to swing the door handle over towards PM and cause a flash / reflection.

Now to prove the door swung inward we need any other statement that corroborates Bakers. Or an image showing such.
Did Baker specifically say which door he swung in?  Not the outer double door to the warehouse?

The primary outside entrance into the Depository, were the 2 sets of double glass

doors on the south side of the building. Immediately east (right) of this entrance was a set

of stairs that only went from the first to the second floor.All

employees used the stairs.

In the second glass doors from this lobby area, there is a “Will Call” counter (circle),

with a half door and a latch which swings towards the entrance.

Andrej, check this diagram, it shows the front door symbol as a door that swings both ways. Not proof positive but seeing the double doors open outward as does the lil half door at the counter. Only thing is the lil half door has a similar symbol as the front door and we know the half door only swings out.