REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Lee Farley at December 26, 2015 at 8:29 AM

Paul Francisco Paso at December 25, 2015 at 6:41 PM

Lee Farley at December 25, 2015 at 2:24 PM

If I was the only person able to make out the Lovelady resemblance, Paul, I'd give up with my contentions.  Fortunately, for my tentative ID, there are others who do see the resemblance.  Therefore, I guess we just chalk this one up as being a topic we somewhat disagree on.  I'm sure I've posted better images than the one on this thread but for the life of me I cannot find where I posted them due to being on a shitty iPad that is struggling to type words let alone do searches for me.  I'll keep looking.  

Like the Prayer Man narrative, that ties neatly into the doorway figure being LHO, there is also a Shelley-Lovelady narrative, and if we choose the wrong one (like the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter) then we alter our understanding of how Oswald was set up and manipulated.  

Take care, bud.

No problem disagreeing, bro, and I look forward to you running with it so we can see where it leads to. The guy in Gerda's gif looks a lot like Lovelady did that day if that counts for anything.

When Gerda's posts appeared on MacRae's forum I will admit that I found them somewhat interesting but the more I thought about it the more wary I became, Paul.  It seemed everyone at the time jumped on this as definitive proof that they had left the area of the doorway and did actually walk down to the railroad.  What we have in the Couch film is a few frames containing the left hand side and backs of two individuals walking away from the island area in front of the TSBD.  Could it be the pair of them?  Sure.  Do I personally believe it is them?  No.  And it isn't just the fact that we cannot see their faces or that the images are just as useless as the Darnell frames for making any positive ID of anyone using the frames alone.  We have to use other information and, as far as I am concerned, knowing what we know about Shelley, I do not for one second believe he left Oswald alone on those steps.  He was the shepherd and he wasn't letting go of his prize sheep until it was time to cut him loose.

We have no definitive proof that it is Shelley and Lovelady in either the Couch film or the Darnell frames.  What we have are stories and depending upon which story one wants to believe will ultimately push a belief in one or the other of the pictures as being an accurate representation of events.

A "white haired dude" has now been touted as being stood in front of PM on the steps rather than it being Billy Lovelady.  I'm willing to listen to any alternatives concerning these events but this one is a bit too much to even contemplate...

P.S. I completely agree with you regarding the disagreements piece.  I have no problem disagreeing with anyone.  I guess what I tap into more than anything else is tone.  And I'm also very good at reading between the lines in certain situations.  

I for one think it is Lovelady on the steps in front of PM he has gone from right side of railing to the wall in the last couple of frames, we can see his bald head and his checkered shirt, don´t want to think too much about it but just my first impulse after studying the pictures Linda has also found out who the 2 lady´s on the steps are.

Somebody, maybe Linda, was askin about a fellow in a checkered shirt, some CIA Watergate man, which I do not think it is but maybe it is this guy that is walking down Elm ?

Somebody, maybe Linda, was askin about a fellow in a checkered shirt, some CIA Watergate man, which I do not think it is but maybe it is this guy that is walking down Elm ?

McCord. Interesting thought.

Andrej Stancak at December 26, 2015 at 1:24 PM

Would you please educate me: is it technically possible at all that Lovelady&Shelley would be seen both in Darnell and Couch?

Good question. I don't know off the top, but hopefully someone does.

Here is Bart's work on this. Additional food for thought. 

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/

One thing that has always struck me as maybe significant in some way is his alleged statement about being "out front with Bill Shelley". Why single Shelley out? Why not Lovelady or Buell...?

It once occurred to me that he said "with Shelley" with the idea that they had gone out front together.

Perhaps Shelley had seen Oswald in the Domino room and said to come on out front to see the President.

Thats as sharp as I can get this

Greg at December 26, 2015 at 8:06 PM

One thing that has always struck me as maybe significant in some way is his alleged statement about being "out front with Bill Shelley". Why single Shelley out? Why not Lovelady or Buell...?

"Why single Shelley out? Why not Lovelady or Buell...?"

Perhaps because he was standing near (next to) Shelley rather than others below him on the steps.
And usually one points out someone whom also would recall or recognized himself being out front.
Shelley would be immediate superior, rather than Truly whom had left the steps likely before PM/LHO arrived out front.

Now has it been verified that Shelley was in suit and tie on the steps? If that is Shelley in Suit jacket and tie on the landing next to him then why would LHO need to mention anyone else.
Shelley was in suit and tie to go to the police station,.. later.
But standing on the steps is he the man in suit and tie? Or is that Molina in jacket and black tie?

I do not think you can start in the middle, you need to know exactly what Shelley was wearing on those steps.
Is he even in Altgens 6?
Convince us of it.

Was Shelley in his white shirt and tie with sleeves rolled up like when he is served up coffee?




If so that makes him 'black hole' man not the figure at the back of Altgens in suit and tie.
Shelley:
Confirmed his position on the top of the front steps just outside the glass doors and confirms he is standing next to Lovelady on the front steps. 

Standing Next to Lovelady would be Blackhole Man.
as opposed to
Standing above Lovelady, and just outside the glass door would be Suit and Tie man. 

Sorry if you think this is a sloved issue, I do not think it has been clearly defined whom was whom on those steps.
Why the confusion to this day, when this should have been asked of each person on those steps and numerals or arrows pointing out each person, without this we are shooting blanks at targets.

Why wasn't Shelley asked to point himself out in Altgens6 to commission counsel?

Solve Shelley's Location in Altgens6, and prove that. Then move forward.

Now what I see as Shelley in Couch looks like Shelley in the other clip.


In the clip I can see hint of white collar on the Shelley figure, and height of the Lovelady character is short enough compared to the Shelley character to be consistent with what is known for it to be Shelley and Lovelady.

And if that is Roy Edward Lewis grabbing the sign post, then why not Lovelady/Shelley walking down the middle of Elm Ext., timing fits all leaving the steps about the same time.
Where else are the two coming from if not the steps? Where is Lewis coming from? The steps, correct.
They seem to be heading for where officer Smith went and the pergola/bushes area rather than down the sidewalk beside the building, or straight down the Ext.. They are angled towards the area where Calvary/Calvery was standing down by the RL Thorton Turnpike sign. At least it seems Shelley character is looking towards Elm Street as opposed to down the Elm extension and then Lovelady character breaks into a trot to go talk to the girls.

Whomever the woman running past them is, she does not stop or interact with the S/L pair. She seems to be on the sidewalk next to the building and a vehicle is between herself and S/L.
If this is Gloria then the conversation happened after S/L came back in? (if that is even possible) or that she ran to the steps and S/L were still there (either inside vestibule, or not visible)


I'd say Gerda was correct. I'd say Bart has shown them to be S&L.
I'd say they left the steps and went down the extension as seen in Couch.
I'd say they adjusted their testimony as necessary to negate Adams.

What I do not fully understand is if the need to be quick to re-enter, to negate Adams, and if that works with them staying on the steps for 3-4 minutes before moving. The two do not mix, oil and water.
And if Lovelady did a quick re-enter would not Billy(?) be on the phone as he said he went in to use it, and not standing around by the elevators?


When the Lovelady character breaks into a run is it because he sees the girls at the corner of the "park" ie the pergola area. This is what Shelley said he did in his first day statement.

What I see important is that PM is directly behind Billy Lovelady in the Hughes clip as limo comes around corner and abreast of the entrance.

Isn't that Truly in his hat on the far right raising his hand to wave?
Also Roy Edward Lewis is seen raising his arm to wave also as limo passes.

With Shelly out front because he was a supervisor, yes Paul 100 percent correct, makes total sense.

I also agree with Ed that Shelly is suited in Altgens 6. And the guy in the shirt above Williams is Molina. I think it is their position that gives it away. I don't see the point of Shelly standing that far away from Lovelady in the first place, and Williams and Molina worked together in the accounting dept. so it makes all the more sense for them to stand tgether as well.

Groden made a mistake w this and switched Molina and Shelley.

Note the Carl Edward Jones annotation is wrong by me and is actually Roy Edward Lewis.

If you go to my link at the web post I made http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/ ;, there is something I discovered just before I went to sleep, It dawned on me and I could not get to sleep for a while.

Lovelady's FBI statement and Shelly's DPD statement on Nov 22nd both make a mention of them leaving almost immediately and going down there, BUT they also mention they went back after!!! There is absolutely no word on them going to the rail road yard.!!!

So to me it goes as follows: they both buggered off as seen in Couch, but they did not stay out THAT long, since Vicky Adams saw them again at the TSBD.

The time they spent out there cannot have been more than a couple of mins. They just ended up strecthing it to give Vicky's testimony a shafting.

One more thing, it is obvious we need to try and get a kick arse scan of the Couch film.

If I am not mistaken it is at ABC who seem to be more forthcoming than their 'brothers' at NBC.

We ough to give this a serious try.

Archival sources in the PBS JFK Breaking The News docu (where the 720 rip is from) states Mal Couch as the source, but then again the WFAA stuff is housed at.....yup the 6th fl museum.

I suspect that the Couch film was handled by Couch himself or his estate since the 6th fl. museum does not list the Couch film.

Not that I am trying to stifle any further debate  -- but I agree with Jim di and others that we will just keep going round and round on these issues. The only real chance of settling them is with getting the origonal films. Darnell remaims the number one priority, but I see no reason not to try for Couch as well.

No stifling necessary,
We are making progress and everything Bart has just said needs etched in stone somewhere.
We have to have all the ducks in a row.
This is best thought out responses yet as to whom was where on those steps.

Even without a better scan we can still use what we have and our collective minds.

Think of this more as a spiral that circles around up to a point than a nascar track.

Although the question Linda raises about Ruth Dean on the steps has entered the fray...

Ed Ledoux at December 26, 2015 at 11:39 PM

 

"Why single Shelley out? Why not Lovelady or Buell...?"

Perhaps because he was standing near (next to) Shelley rather than others below him on the steps.
And usually one points out someone whom also would recall or recognized himself being out front.
Shelley would be immediate superior, rather than Truly whom had left the steps likely before PM/LHO arrived out front.

Now has it been verified that Shelley was in suit and tie on the steps? If that is Shelley in Suit jacket and tie on the landing next to him then why would LHO need to mention anyone else.
Shelley was in suit and tie to go to the police station,.. later.
But standing on the steps is he the man in suit and tie? Or is that Molina in jacket and black tie?

I do not think you can start in the middle, you need to know exactly what Shelley was wearing on those steps.
Is he even in Altgens 6?
Convince us of it.

Was Shelley in his white shirt and tie with sleeves rolled up like when he is served up coffee?




If so that makes him 'black hole' man not the figure at the back of Altgens in suit and tie.
Shelley:
Confirmed his position on the top of the front steps just outside the glass doors and confirms he is standing next to Lovelady on the front steps. 

Standing Next to Lovelady would be Blackhole Man.
as opposed to
Standing above Lovelady, and just outside the glass door would be Suit and Tie man. 

Sorry if you think this is a sloved issue, I do not think it has been clearly defined whom was whom on those steps.
Why the confusion to this day, when this should have been asked of each person on those steps and numerals or arrows pointing out each person, without this we are shooting blanks at targets.

Why wasn't Shelley asked to point himself out in Altgens6 to commission counsel?

Solve Shelley's Location in Altgens6, and prove that. Then move forward.

Now what I see as Shelley in Couch looks like Shelley in the other clip.


In the clip I can see hint of white collar on the Shelley figure, and height of the Lovelady character is short enough compared to the Shelley character to be consistent with what is known for it to be Shelley and Lovelady.

And if that is Roy Edward Lewis grabbing the sign post, then why not Lovelady/Shelley walking down the middle of Elm Ext., timing fits all leaving the steps about the same time.
Where else are the two coming from if not the steps? Where is Lewis coming from? The steps, correct.
They seem to be heading for where officer Smith went and the pergola/bushes area rather than down the sidewalk beside the building, or straight down the Ext.. They are angled towards the area where Calvary/Calvery was standing down by the RL Thorton Turnpike sign. At least it seems Shelley character is looking towards Elm Street as opposed to down the Elm extension and then Lovelady character breaks into a trot to go talk to the girls.

Whomever the woman running past them is, she does not stop or interact with the S/L pair. She seems to be on the sidewalk next to the building and a vehicle is between herself and S/L.
If this is Gloria then the conversation happened after S/L came back in? (if that is even possible) or that she ran to the steps and S/L were still there (either inside vestibule, or not visible)


I'd say Gerda was correct. I'd say Bart has shown them to be S&L.
I'd say they left the steps and went down the extension as seen in Couch.
I'd say they adjusted their testimony as necessary to negate Adams.

What I do not fully understand is if the need to be quick to re-enter, to negate Adams, and if that works with them staying on the steps for 3-4 minutes before moving. The two do not mix, oil and water.
And if Lovelady did a quick re-enter would not Billy(?) be on the phone as he said he went in to use it, and not standing around by the elevators?


When the Lovelady character breaks into a run is it because he sees the girls at the corner of the "park" ie the pergola area. This is what Shelley said he did in his first day statement.

What I see important is that PM is directly behind Billy Lovelady in the Hughes clip as limo comes around corner and abreast of the entrance.

Isn't that Truly in his hat on the far right raising his hand to wave?
Also Roy Edward Lewis is seen raising his arm to wave also as limo passes.

Whomever the woman running past them is, she does not stop or interact with the S/L pair. She seems to be on the sidewalk next to the building and a vehicle is between herself and S/L.

Just as she runs past "Shelley" and "Lovelady", "Lovelady" can be seen to suddenly break into a run (it also looks to me like "Shelley" has started to speed up as well). I wonder if that lady was running up & someone shouted out "What's heppened!?", and she's shouted back something like "He's been shot, the President's been shot!!!" and this causes "Lovelady" (and "Shelley") to start running???...

Good point Smee!,  that could be the person whom shouted something that made him, Lovelady, turn and look back.

So Lovelady sees a cop running into the building and just carries on towards the park?

You would think that would peak his interest in what was going on in his own place of employment... nah

Ed Ledoux at December 28, 2015 at 4:41 AM

Good point Smee!,  that could be the person whom shouted something that made him, Lovelady, turn and look back.

When/where does he turn and look back? I still,haven't caught that bit...

We can't see it Smee film doesn't cover that, its only in his testimony.