REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Lee Farley at April 3, 2015 at 4:38 AM

I have mulled over the question of Billy Lovelady's whereabouts after the immediate aftermath of the shooting for a long time now.

I never bought into the Gerda Dunckel work that was said to show Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady walking toward the parking lot area approximately 20+ seconds after the shots.  

Now I categorically dismiss this work.  I do not believe that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady left those steps and went out onto Elm Street or anywhere near the parking lot.  I have been looking at the Weigman film for days now and I am absolutely convinced that this person is Billy Lovelady in the frame on the left.  Frame on the right is Lovelady from Darnell:

  

Bald head, dark shirt, white t-shirt underneath, looks like he may be smoking as hand is up to his mouth.  This, IMO, is Billy Nolan Lovelady.  His original affidavit as it appears in my OP above was correct when he wrote that after the shooting he "went back into the building and went to work" and he did not go outside with Bill Shelley.

Not only did he stay on the steps but he was stood directly in front of Prayer Man and Buell Wesley Frazier and would have seen the approach of Officer Marrion Baker.  If this is Billy Lovelady in Weigman, and I now have no doubts that it is, then I believe it possible that the figure stood to Buell Wesley Frazier's left on the landing is Bill Shelley.  It was Shelley who "vouched" for Oswald on those steps when Baker got to those doors.  Truly was too far behind and he certainly did not reach the doors at the same time as Baker.

Shelley was Oswald's "Supervisor" and therefore it makes sense that the designated "patsy" was being shepherded by his "Supervisor" that day.  Shelley was watching Oswald's every move, IMO.  Shelley made sure that Oswald was pushed into the shadows of those steps away from view.  It was Shelley who sent Oswald home.  Shelley and Truly were the one's who put the spotlight on Oswald as soon as they were certain he had left.

I'm beginning to think, seriously, that Frazier left with Oswald.  I don't believe Frazier stayed after the assassination.  If he had, he'd have been rounded up with the others and taken to be interviewed.

Finally Finally.................Lee you are a super star,

Oswald left with Frazier, I have no doubt any longer......continuation of where's your rider but you've beat me to it.

And YES!!! Shelley on the landing to the left of Frazier..

its all becoming so so clear.

Thank -you for this post.....

I haven't got anything to add right now on this.

I know backslapping is generally frowned upon, but it deserves to be said... the work being produced here is light years ahead of what is happening anywhere else... the level of co-operative research is light years ahead.

Even though we are the smallest of the forums, I would suggest we actually have the most active membership in terms of real contributors. Even some who don't consider themselves reserachers are turning up and pitching in in any number of constructive ways.

We do what the others can't even dream of doing.

Jesus, you guys are just freakin awesome.  

Sorry... just had to say it. No matter where any of this goes from here on, it was and is a success.          

Lee, no idea how he came into it. He must have been contacted, or was visiting the Randle's at the time.

He probably got into the mix when LMR realized they would have to damn their immortal souls by lying their asses off.

He was there for spiritual support. In Texas, at that time (and now I assume) people quite often took their ministers along for support, guidance, and so forth. Many people also confessed to their ministers.

Most other places, people bring along loyers (busy or otherwise) but in that period, it was ministers. My grandfather was a Baptist minister and did a lot of this himself. Spiritual guidance, without having to divulge what was confessed to save their immoral souls.

Good take on this Lee, Terry and Greg!

Lawyers would be seen as confrontational by the police.
Where a minister or priest could vouch for you and ask many questions of the authorities without drawing fire or suspicion to the subject, sit in during questioning and possible steer the investigation away from his church going members.
Could it be that when Rose and Stovall start to take BWF back to Irving it is really to ditch the pastor, and then have BWF alone to polygraph and play mind games with?
Is there a cite that says the good reverend came back with BWF for this?
Is there a cite that says the good reverend was brought in with Linnie and Wes or did he meet them at DPD?
Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church would be excluded from the room but would raise hell if he thought the cops were unfairly treating Buell.
Now the bullshit part is the confession and Fritz trying to hit Wes.
Wasn't Linnie and the good reverend in that room when this supposedly happened!?!?

Ed Ledoux at April 5, 2015 at 4:13 PM

Good take on this Lee, Terry and Greg!

Lawyers would be seen as confrontational by the police.
Where a minister or priest could vouch for you and ask many questions of the authorities without drawing fire or suspicion to the subject, sit in during questioning and possible steer the investigation away from his church going members.
Could it be that when Rose and Stovall start to take BWF back to Irving it is really to ditch the pastor, and then have BWF alone to polygraph and play mind games with?
Is there a cite that says the good reverend came back with BWF for this?
Is there a cite that says the good reverend was brought in with Linnie and Wes or did he meet them at DPD?
Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church would be excluded from the room but would raise hell if he thought the cops were unfairly treating Buell.
Now the bullshit part is the confession and Fritz trying to hit Wes.
Wasn't Linnie and the good reverend in that room when this supposedly happened!?!?

I apologise in advance Ed, but my computer skills are terrible.......I've had to copy and paste the report from Rose Stovall and Adamcik but its clear from this that the Rev was at least with them until Wes and Linnie were returned home

G. F. ROSE - R. S. STOVALL - J. P. ADAMCIK

REPORT ON INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S MURDER

On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited us

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2

to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3

We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4

sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.

G.F. Rose

R.S. Stovall

J.P. Ad

Perfect! Thanks Mick!

Lets examine the "TESTIMONY OF BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY" edited for brevity

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was and your experience, in general?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February 19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down there and nursery and stuff like that.  1937 +20 = 1957

Mr. BALL - When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. LOVELADY - December 16, 1961, I believe it was. What did he do for the four years in between? College, another job or prison? Ball doesn't ask? Hmmm

Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place. Started by driving the TSBD truck, must have had some truck driving experience? Did he get hired through an employment agency?

Mr. BALL - Which one of the buildings do you work in?

Mr. LOVELADY - At the one at 411 Elm.

Mr. BALL - On November 22, 1963, where were you working?

Mr. LOVELADY - At that morning, you mean?

Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. LOVELADY - I Was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting down that flooring.

Mr. BALL - Who were you working with?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along. The boys could take smoke breaks after Shelley went down

Mr. BALL - That's Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - What is his position with Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. LOVELADY - He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly.

Mr. BALL - Is he a foreman?

Mr. LOVELADY - I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most things down there, paperwork and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well just to work with him.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing fine. Knew LHO well enough to know about his family

Mr. BALL - Where did Oswald work in the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, he had access to all the building just like I do.

Mr. BALL - All floors?

Mr. LOVELADY - All floors.

Mr. BALL - Any floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up there.

Mr. BALL - Did he work on one floor more than any other?

Mr. LOVELADY - No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books.

Mr. BALL - Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys. Strange answer. Only a couple times out of all the lunches ate only a few were witnessed by BNL or was that the extent of LHO's use of the DR?

Mr. BALL - Did you see him come to Work that morning?

Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand?

Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; just lunch.

Mr. BALL - Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch?

Mr. LOVELADY - Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had.  Ball asked no further questions about the sacks LHO brought his lunch in. Did LHO just carry the grapes and fruit in his hands?

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day?

Mr. LOVELADY - Same time, 12.

Mr. BALL - A little before 12?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.

Mr. BALL - Did you come down the elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Who did you go down with?

Mr. LOVELADY - Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the side I was; I believe so.

Mr. BALL - Were you having a race with the other boys?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way down?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holier to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him.

Mr. BALL - You were on the west elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY - East, on back, the elevator back.

Mr. BALL - Did you see him?

Mr. LOVELADY - No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because---where those slats are in back of the elevator. Here he is placing LHO on the sixth floor. He does not see him but only hears him talking to Givens.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him again that day?

Mr. LOVELADY - No.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down. Just like LHO

Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. I thought the Domino Room was occupied by Jack? What happened to JD eating there?

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me Ball quickly cuts off BNL and never returns to the subject to let him finish. Ball knew who was there behind BNL, Prayer Man or Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Mr. BALL - What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?

Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.

Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Where does she work?

Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll. In his affidavit his said across the street is where the sounds came from.

Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.

Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?

Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll. Later he will claim he can't even see that area due to the recessed entry.

Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are? Yes moron show us in Altgens 6 where the shots were...

Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Must have been a crowded step what with BNL standing on Prayer Man

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Running to the island is South of the entrance and not where the tracks are, etc.

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.

Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---

Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?

Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.

Mr. BALL - That's all?

Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?

Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---

Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?

Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Damn Gloria must have been a sprinter!! She teleported from 100 yards away to the steps to inform BNL and Shelley so they could get 25 steps away from the TSBD entrance before Baker got there. Utter nonsense by BNL.

Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? Doubtful, more likely Baker ran passed him, or BNL had already gone inside with Shelley by the time Baker hits the steps. President goes by, show is over and they went in.

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. The bosses have their cars right beside the building, near the West dock.

Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. The rear? What happened to the West entrance Billy?? Is he getting his entries (plural) mixed up?

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. NO KIDDING SHERLOCK!

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. No watch but the first floor has several clocks!

Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. Ah now he mentions the wall between him and any view of the GN. Entrance of the TSBD building was in his way.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?

Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.

Mr. BALL - A fast walk?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. I don't believe this happened. Baker saw two white males near the rear stairs, likely BNL and Shelley as they were already going back to work.

Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. oh sure

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?

Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door. His speaking about a Man Door.

Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?

Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?

Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?

Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.

Mr. BALL - I am?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.

Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. The large gated entry where trucks can dock off the Elm St Extension.

Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---

Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.

Mr. BALL - That's south.

Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.

Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.  Now he is speaking of the overhead 'garage' doors.

Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?

Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. On the second entry he may have seen a girl and it might have been Vickie

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?

Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name?

Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.

Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?

Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.

Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.

Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?

Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. Doesn't know which girl was there, doesn't know whom she was talking to or where this happened. Doesn't know the clock is a few feet away? Or this did not happen on the first floor!

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in. Sure by the second entry there was more.

Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?

Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor. And after 1:15 by the times proposed by BNL

Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did. Now Gary Mack should point out BNL on the Sixth Floor as he says he is there and sees his distinctive shirt in the Alyea out takes or something. I have yet to see a BNL on 6. I do see a guy whom could be JD.

Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---

Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one. I bet Billy, you want nothing to do with the pack of lies you just had to tell.

Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.And Ball and Company can edit this anyway they want now.

Ed, here is Baker's quote regarding the white men....

"Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us."

i too have thought for a long time that he meant near the rear stairs......I now think it was, as he said, near the main doorway ie at the front of the building. There was only one main doorway......on the way to the elevators. Whoever these men were one or both may have been on the front steps and moved inside before Baker arrived. Was one PM?

Thanks Colin,
I would say PM could be a player only if Baker was held up or stopped and was asking those on the steps where the stairs were.
Why would he single out a couple of white males at the entrance, out of all the others whom may have been there or had already gotten inside the entrance.
Distance is too great to be in the entry.
30 feet? This has to be in the warehouse.
"as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men," clinches it for me that it was a rear area sighting.
"On the first floor " takes it away from the entrance also.
If you read his statement like you were running along with Baker it makes more sense.
 
This fits the Shelley-Lovelady early return to work and them being in the warehouse.

Ploughing through the lengthy Gerda Dunckel thread on the Assassination Forum, I noticed one poster was sceptical Lovelady had moved from the steps. It now looks as if many of us were taken in by the similarity in appearances of the two men seen moving quickly towards the west.

Well spotted, Lee!

Lovelady remaining at the front before moving inside is certainly more plausible than a lengthy detour around the building.

A few issues spring to mind. The 'model' that many seem to have accepted down the years of Baker and Truly quickly progressing to the elevators through an otherwise almost empty first floor now seems threadbare. There is no way of determining how long Baker was delayed. I suspect the lowest estimate is defined by Victoria Adams' account.

Did Shelley really run across the street to meet Gloria Calvary, or did any such encounter take place inside the TSBD?

Perhaps in order of decreasing likelihood, Lovelady, Frazier, Oswald and Shelley are prime candidates for the two white men remarked upon by Baker.

Did Frazier simply panic and drive back to Irving before the building was supposedly sealed?

All good questions Redfern!
may be a few before I can help answer some of them.
Cheers!

I see Tommy discounted it being Lovelady because the shirt collar appears white.

Bugliosi has this blurb
He turns and runs toward the front steps of the Depository, pushing his way ... entranceway.249 Roy Truly, the building superintendent, sees Baker coming

This makes it sound as if Baker was at the front steps pushing his way up the steps.

Yet Truly said,
I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway -- I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, and I ran up and caught up with him. 3H221

This places Baker up on the steps before Truly makes his move to catch up to him, so he observed this pushing of people out of the way.

This should be easy to find references to people whom were pushed out of the way.  

Whom could forget getting pushed or shoved aside by a Dallas Motorcycle Policeman in full uniform right after you hear shots?!?!
Whom?
Everyone it seems.

Supposedly Truly catches Baker, this has to be before they hit the warehouse entrance, or the bumping into each other at the swinging half door tale is fabricated.
The bolt on the lil gate was supposedly latched

So where does Truly supposedly meet Baker?
At the bottom of the stairs? Atop the landing, or before the main entrance?

If it is anywhere but at the bottom of the steps, and Lovelady was going down Elm St Extension, then the encounter would not be visible to BNL!

Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.

As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

So none were warehouse employees or they would have opened the swinging door already?

Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through.

This would imply the half door was bolted or the bolt had been latched by the last person in or through. I don't buy that the latch moved on its own or got hung up mysteriously. It would not have been able to be closed if the bolt had been out. Who latched the door? If it was bolted why? Wouldn't it have been stuck for the first person to come through, or the last person to come through it? Was this another measure by someone to slow down anyone entering?

Did Eddie Piper, whom related he may have been near the front entrance doors, have done such a thing?

Now please help me find any witnesses whom were pushed.

Where were they when they were pushed?

Was it when Baker had to get through the crowd lining the street as he got off his motor?
Not when he, Baker and/or Truly go up the steps?

Where did this cop/manager entry take place for Lovelady to see them together...?

TRULY "And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building....But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is."

Not very definitive but as stated BNL would not be able to see this interaction of Baker-Truly running into the building unless BNL was on the steps still, or inside the entrance or building/warehouse, or he did not see this at all.
If BNL can not see through the entry wall to see the comotion and GN how the heck did he see Baker Truly together in the same area when he was supposedly going towards the Knoll and down Elm Extension?

Where did the Truly Baker encounter happen?

Mr. BELIN...Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors..?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.  

"Did Frazier simply panic and drive back to Irving before the building was supposedly sealed?"
Okay Redfern, did Buell Wesley Frazier have an Texas drivers license?
Did he have his sisters address on it?
If not What ID did Buell show to get out of the building? And what address was on that ID?
Someone really needs to ask BWF some serious questions!!!

"As they made their way to the back stairway"

Surely if their story was as the W.C.Report, (Correct initails as it was full of shite), then they were already at the back stairway. Why would they "make their way" towards it? From little mistakes like this, the true story can emerge.

Yep kinda like I was saying it only is natural for a cop to take the first stairs he sees. Why ask where the stairs are when your standing looking at them!
Nicely done Beowulf.
I agree Ray if they had scrambled up to the second floor they would be on the back stairs if their story was true.
Other alternate view is they made their way to the back stairs, after climbing the front steps to the next level ie the second floor, and made their way to the back stairs. There they saw LHO at the Dr Pepper machine at the back of the warehouse.

Either way LHO is not on six and has an alibi thanks to Baker/Truly, Adams/Styles, the Fourth Floor Group, the Fifth floor gang and even JD.
No one places LHO on six with the rifle. (Except the Warren Nazis)

Check and Mate.

Lee Farley at March 15, 2015 at 4:53 AM

Did Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley "go back to work" immediately after the assassination?

According to what Lovelady wrote on his handwritten affidavit they did - - before crossing it out.

It states, " After it [the parade] was over we went back into the building and went to work. took some police officers up to the seacrh the building."

 

Another interesting piece of information that was scratched was his line that says the second and third shots were "right together" before being replaced with "close together."

Another question re JED. Why was he taken with the others to the the police station just after the shooting. I am at a loss why he was included in that group of employees. As you will recall BRW, Danny Arce and Shelley were in one car. Lovelady and Dougherty travelled in another. It would seem that the floor laying crew were targeted for attention, presumably as they had been on the 6th floor that morning. Givens was not included as he was "missing" at the time. Other orderfillers (Frazier and Norman) who had been there on occasion that morning were not interviewed with this group. So the question remains, why Dougherty......he was not part of the flooring crew but merely an orderfiller.

Smee at December 21, 2015 at 1:31 PM

Lee Farley at March 15, 2015 at 4:53 AM

Did Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley "go back to work" immediately after the assassination?

According to what Lovelady wrote on his handwritten affidavit they did - - before crossing it out.

It states, " After it [the parade] was over we went back into the building and went to work. took some police officers up to the seacrh the building."

 

Another interesting piece of information that was scratched was his line that says the second and third shots were "right together" before being replaced with "close together."

I wonder why Dougherty's name is underlined?

Yes good question

Colin Crow at December 21, 2015 at 8:20 PM

Another question re JED. Why was he taken with the others to the the police station just after the shooting. I am at a loss why he was included in that group of employees. As you will recall BRW, Danny Arce and Shelley were in one car. Lovelady and Dougherty travelled in another. It would seem that the floor laying crew were targeted for attention, presumably as they had been on the 6th floor that morning. Givens was not included as he was "missing" at the time. Other orderfillers (Frazier and Norman) who had been there on occasion that morning were not interviewed with this group. So the question remains, why Dougherty......he was not part of the flooring crew but merely an orderfiller.

Yes Colin, why Dougherty.