REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

To Robert Prudhomme,

I removed my own posts from this thread.  The reasons for doing so will remain private at this time.  Rest assured, I still categorically believe that the person depicted in the Darnell frames, stood in front of Prayer Man, is none other than Bily Lovelady.  He is stood in the same area where he is stood in other films.  He has a bald head.  You cannot make out his features because you cannot make out anybodys features in the extant film.  The person who I have always believed is William Shelley is also seen stood to the right of Buell Wesley Frazier (to Frazier's left) wearing dark suit and black tie (as he is seen wearing in the photos and movies of him getting into the squad car).  I do not believe that Shelley left the steps.  William Shelley was part of the small team that framed Lee Harvey Oswald that day, along with Roy Truly and Jack Cason.  Shelley, IMO, was shepherding Oswald and blew the whistle on him very quickly, along with his boss, once the assassination was over.  There is no way, as far as I am concerned, that he left Oswald stood on those steps by himself.  If that is Shelley wearing the black tie and dark suit, as also seen in Altgens-8, with his face in shade, then he did not leave the steps within the discussed timeframe because he is also in the Darnell frames.

Now the debate for me rests on who the guy wearing the dark suit and black tie is.  It's either Molina or Shelley.  Cannot be anybody else.  I believe it was Shelley and that the guy in the white shirt in Altgens-8 is possibly Molina. 

Someone on those steps came between Oswald (PM) and Baker and I do not now believe it was Truly.  He was too far behind to be the initial person to "vouch" for LHO.  I believe it was Shelley.  This narrative is incredibly important and I believe will form part of Volume III of Greg's work.  This is the volume I have been waiting for and the volume that will ultimately tie all of the TSBD shenanigans together very consisely.  Oswald was set up by a small band of TSBD insiders and Shelley was one of them.  He did not go down Elm Street, IMO, and was on hand in the immediate aftermath of events to ensure Oswald was out of that building and sent on his way...and to meet his destiny.

So to summarise, I see Billy Lovelady and Shelley in the Darnell frames.  The bullshit they spun about getting away from that doorway was just that - - bullshit.

My initial posts still exist in the replies of other members here.

IMO, the fellow standing just in front of PM in this shot is BNLovelady.

The shirt shows the same highs/lows as other shots of Lovelady.

There is no way in hell I will subscribe to this utter nonsense. There is only that much I am willing to tolerate from the other side, but not from within NFW!

I have asked for Greg to delete my account and I am retiring from forum life immediately.

Best wishes to all

Sorry, guys, I understand that things in the JFK assassination arena are complicated, and nothing is set in stone. Yet, are there not Shelley and Lovelady in Couch film moving quite fast towards the rail yard? That would rather speak to the possibility that they actually left the doorway than stayed. It was in fact the WC which wanted both Shelley and Lovelady to stay in the doorway for a longer time (some three minutes) than the Couch film shows just to provide enough time for Officer Baker and Superintendant Truly to get to the 2nd floor. Am I missing something?

Paul Francisco Paso at December 25, 2015 at 12:20 PM

IMO, I can't make out Lovelady in Darnell. I find it impossible to identify him whereas I was somewhat convinced that it is Lovelady in Gerda's clip when it first appeared at Stinky's. Still do.

I can't positively ID him either, Paul.  But I still know it's him.  Similar to me not being able to positively ID Lee Harvey Oswald as PM - - but I still know it is him.

Terry Martin at December 25, 2015 at 10:26 AM

IMO, the fellow standing just in front of PM in this shot is BNLovelady.

The shirt shows the same highs/lows as other shots of Lovelady.

As I've already mentioned there are other (stated and unstated) reasons to believe it is BNL, Terry.  The narrative we create around these events is vitally important.  I'm just glad the narrative is in the hands of Greg.  No one will do this thing justice like he will... 

Lee Farley at December 25, 2015 at 1:18 PM

Paul Francisco Paso at December 25, 2015 at 12:20 PM

IMO, I can't make out Lovelady in Darnell. I find it impossible to identify him whereas I was somewhat convinced that it is Lovelady in Gerda's clip when it first appeared at Stinky's. Still do.

I can't positively ID him either, Paul.  But I still know it's him.  Similar to me not being able to positively ID Lee Harvey Oswald as PM - - but I still know it is him.

If I was the only person able to make out the Lovelady resemblance, Paul, I'd give up with my contentions.  Fortunately, for my tentative ID, there are others who do see the resemblance.  Therefore, I guess we just chalk this one up as being a topic we somewhat disagree on.  I'm sure I've posted better images than the one on this thread but for the life of me I cannot find where I posted them due to being on a shitty iPad that is struggling to type words let alone do searches for me.  I'll keep looking.  

Like the Prayer Man narrative, that ties neatly into the doorway figure being LHO, there is also a Shelley-Lovelady narrative, and if we choose the wrong one (like the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter) then we alter our understanding of how Oswald was set up and manipulated.  

Take care, bud.

I suppose its like we have said over and over: until we get our hands on a better scan, we really won't know for certain.

Terry Martin at December 25, 2015 at 3:33 PM

I suppose its like we have said over and over: until we get our hands on a better scan, we really won't know for certain.

That's about where it stands - and on that point at least, I'd hope there is general agreement.

I am deliberately not getting ahead of myself with contentious issues to be dealt with in volume 3. There are just too many alternative considerations Those things need full attention and can't be looked at half-arsed in between other stuff.

One example: Shelley testified to seeing Piper, upon re-entering,

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

But acording to Piper's testimony, he made that run between the second and third shots.

There is also this from Baker:

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Shelley and Lovelady? Oswald and Dougherty? Dougherty and ..... ? Two unknowns?

It all has to be taken into account alongside any considerations of Gerda's gif. As does the suggested role of Shelley as Truly sidekick.

Maybe I can sort it all out satisfactorily, maybe I can't (tho I appreciate the vote of confidence!). But I am not going to try and do it now. With any luck, we'll have the scans by the time I get to that part of the narrative... until then, the only thing here to my mind cut and dry is that Shelley is a person of interest.

First, I'll say I am dazed right now.

Second, I don't know the identity of the person with the brightish/whitish appearing head standing below and in front of Prayer Man. Like many of the figures surrounding Prayer Man and Buell Wesley Frazier, I never gave much thought to them.

Third, I always figured Lovelady was gone by the time Darnell took his pictures. The important thing to me was that Lovelady is standing near PM in the Wiegman frames taken some [fill in the blank] seconds before Darnell.

Fourth, unless a matter is 100% confirmed, there are degrees of uncertainly involved. We believe Prayer Man is Oswald here at ROKC, but we recognize we can't absolutely prove that without better scans. I think we already have enough reasonable doubt to sway a jury that Oswald was on the First Floor (i.e. he wasn't on the Sixth Floor and the Second Floor lunchroom encounter didn't happen). All we have to do is to get this into a courtroom and let the lawyers pick apart the crappy case against Oswald. It'd be like taking candy from a baby.

Fifth, as far as Lovelady leaving right away with Shelley, I'm on the fence. Because that's where I am when I don't know something. I am greatly influenced by early arguments that Lovelady & Shelley were hiking down Elm as shown by the Two Guys in Gerda's GIF. But I've also learned in the two-plus years I've been here is that accepted accounts (i.e. 2nd Floor) generally fall apart upon closer inspection. In other words, the majority is often wrong. Lee's reasoning in the beginning of this thread makes a lot of sense to me. A hell of a lot of sense. It's research and sound reasoning like this that make him a valuable ROKCer.

So what to make of this? I like Lee's arguments. But that compels me then to rethink things.

Who, then, is the person with the brightish/whitish head standing below and in front of Prayer Man? I'll call him "Whitey." I don't know cause my eyes ain't that good. I will say this: Whitey in Darnell bears a resemblance to Lovelady in Wiegman.

I also note that Whitey (Person A), looking outward, doesn't appear to be climbing up the steps like others around him. Merely an observation. 

Just some thoughts here. Because it's Christmas.

The record shows we took the blows

And did it our way

Lee Farley at December 25, 2015 at 2:24 PM

If I was the only person able to make out the Lovelady resemblance, Paul, I'd give up with my contentions.  Fortunately, for my tentative ID, there are others who do see the resemblance.  Therefore, I guess we just chalk this one up as being a topic we somewhat disagree on.  I'm sure I've posted better images than the one on this thread but for the life of me I cannot find where I posted them due to being on a shitty iPad that is struggling to type words let alone do searches for me.  I'll keep looking.  

Like the Prayer Man narrative, that ties neatly into the doorway figure being LHO, there is also a Shelley-Lovelady narrative, and if we choose the wrong one (like the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter) then we alter our understanding of how Oswald was set up and manipulated.  

Take care, bud.

I'm just glad the narrative is in the hands of Greg. No one will do this thing justice like he will...

Hear, hear!

Not going anywhere I will address this thing in due course.

Best,

B

Paul Francisco Paso at December 25, 2015 at 6:41 PM

Lee Farley at December 25, 2015 at 2:24 PM

If I was the only person able to make out the Lovelady resemblance, Paul, I'd give up with my contentions.  Fortunately, for my tentative ID, there are others who do see the resemblance.  Therefore, I guess we just chalk this one up as being a topic we somewhat disagree on.  I'm sure I've posted better images than the one on this thread but for the life of me I cannot find where I posted them due to being on a shitty iPad that is struggling to type words let alone do searches for me.  I'll keep looking.  

Like the Prayer Man narrative, that ties neatly into the doorway figure being LHO, there is also a Shelley-Lovelady narrative, and if we choose the wrong one (like the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter) then we alter our understanding of how Oswald was set up and manipulated.  

Take care, bud.

No problem disagreeing, bro, and I look forward to you running with it so we can see where it leads to. The guy in Gerda's gif looks a lot like Lovelady did that day if that counts for anything.

When Gerda's posts appeared on MacRae's forum I will admit that I found them somewhat interesting but the more I thought about it the more wary I became, Paul.  It seemed everyone at the time jumped on this as definitive proof that they had left the area of the doorway and did actually walk down to the railroad.  What we have in the Couch film is a few frames containing the left hand side and backs of two individuals walking away from the island area in front of the TSBD.  Could it be the pair of them?  Sure.  Do I personally believe it is them?  No.  And it isn't just the fact that we cannot see their faces or that the images are just as useless as the Darnell frames for making any positive ID of anyone using the frames alone.  We have to use other information and, as far as I am concerned, knowing what we know about Shelley, I do not for one second believe he left Oswald alone on those steps.  He was the shepherd and he wasn't letting go of his prize sheep until it was time to cut him loose.

We have no definitive proof that it is Shelley and Lovelady in either the Couch film or the Darnell frames.  What we have are stories and depending upon which story one wants to believe will ultimately push a belief in one or the other of the pictures as being an accurate representation of events.

A "white haired dude" has now been touted as being stood in front of PM on the steps rather than it being Billy Lovelady.  I'm willing to listen to any alternatives concerning these events but this one is a bit too much to even contemplate...

P.S. I completely agree with you regarding the disagreements piece.  I have no problem disagreeing with anyone.  I guess what I tap into more than anything else is tone.  And I'm also very good at reading between the lines in certain situations.  

Would you please educate me: is it technically possible at all that Lovelady&Shelley would be seen both in Darnell and Couch?