REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Introduction to Prayer Man.

There is a figure in the shadowy part on the west side on the front steps of the TSBD in Dallas when President JFK got shot and right after.

This figure can be seen in the Dave Weigman (in Cam Car 1) and Jimmy Darnell (in Cam Car 3) films , see sample screen shots below.

Dave Weigman

James 'Jimmy' Darnell

We are after the identity of Prayer Man (a term coined by Sean Murphy in 2007), the core people at this forum, think it is Lee Harvey Oswald.

Two reasons why:

1/ His features resemble Oswalds.

2/ The evidence points that Oswald was on the 1st floor (on top of the steps is the 1st fl. btw) during and just after the shooting of JFK. This will need a more detailed research by the reader.

Have a good look at the photographs, bear in mind this was the 60's. Look at what type of outfit Prayer Man is wearing and what Prayer Man is supposedly doing, I myself think he is drinking in Weigman and reaching for his chest pocket in Darnell. Some think Prayer Man is taking a picture in Weigman, even so we are curious who this is, so how do we find out?

Now there are two ways to go on about this:

Either this is a complete stranger which no one noticed since no one attested to seeing any strangers in the building or on the front steps during and just after the shooting during all the testimonies given to the DPD, FBI, SS and the Warren Commission.

Or this is an employee of the TSBD? Most likely so given his position on the top steps in the corner in the shadow. Let's apply common sense here, especially those that have worked in an office before know that if some high-end dignitary was to pass by your office then a group of those office workers would be standing near or in front of the entrance of their office building, you think that someone would sneak in from behind or barge his way through a group of people to stand in a shadowy corner without being noticed? I for one seriously doubt that.

Every employee working inside the TSBD and their whereabouts during and just after the shooting is listed below.

If we deduct using the following factors:

Take away all the females, then rule out the African Americans, and finally deduct the ones that as per witness testimony were not working or were nowhere near the TSBD during and just after the shooting of JFK.

This eventually leaves 8 male candidates for Prayer Man.

The 8 candidates are:

Lee Harvey Oswald

Bill Shelly

Billy Lovelady

Roy Truly (who stood on the steps before the motorcade arrived but moved closer towards the front line of spectators while the limo passed)

Otis Wiliams

Joe Molina

Ochus Campbell (who also stood on the steps before the motorcade arrived but moved closer towards the front line of spectators while the limo passed)

Buell Wesley Frazier

From these candidates five are office workers and three are classed as labourers. This is of significance, as mentioned earlier: the clothes Prayer Man is wearing.

His attire is not of an office worker or manager, it looks like a labourer's outfit, this does not look like smart work clothing at all. Even in today's environment office workers wear a much smarter dress than labourers, imagine 50 years ago in Texas, I reckon that division to be held up even more strict.

All individuals who mentioned in their testimony being on or very near the front steps.

From these three individuals at the bottom of the graph above that match the description of being a white labourer, two have been identified and both are in the same shot with Prayer Man they are Buell Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady so they are ruled out. Frazier can be seen in Darnell on top of the stairs with his rockabilly style looking quif in front of the door diviider.

Lovelady can be seen in Weigman at the top of the stairs (he had left them with Shelly as seen in Darnell and Couch)

That leaves only one person: Lee Harvey Oswald.

For more detailed discussion feel free to browse this forum and discover that Prayer Man is Lee Harvey Oswald.

 Sources: Sean Murphy, Tracy Riddle, Richard Hocking.

Updated; 9/9/2015

New graphics

This explains all the changing stories, entrance encounter switched to stairway encounter switched to a Lunchroom encounter.

I encourage all to study the Prayer Man images, and more importantly as Bart has shown, common sense and the process of elimination that leads to one unassailable fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was where he said he was, out front, and Lee Harvey Oswald is PM.


Lee Harvey Oswald = Prayer Man = Not Guilty = Conspiracy to hide that fact.

Its as easy as E=MC^2 

Beautifully simple to follow, Barto. 5 Farley's from me.

Thanks Barto. This is amazingly easy to follow. I applaud the work you've done here. Outstanding!

It also proves, IMO beyond any reasonable doubt Buell Wesley Frazier knows (present tense) who was standing right beside him on the steps. There can no longer be doubt.

Great stuff, Barto.

On the question of the possibility of Prayer Man being a non-TSBD worker, Buell Wesley Frazier has eliminated any doubt in that regard. When questioned about PM in September 2013, as noted by Sean Murphy (post # 791, 20th September 2013, page 53 of the EF Prayerman thread) Frazier’s response precluded PM from being a non-TSBD worker. This was further confirmed in Frazier’s response to Albert Rossi’s questions a year later in September 2014.

For references to these responses by Frazier, see recent discussion in this forum on the ‘BWF who is PM’ thread:

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13236343-bwf-who-is-pm

Thank you all, yes Goban, very important fact to add.

Speaking of adding, I will add a few more bits in a week or so combined with an arsenal of PM Links that I have gathered.

So, I have never heard of the outside of an entrance to a building referred to as the, "the first floor". If I had seen PM/Oswald where he is pictured, I would have described his whereabouts as:

Just outside the front doors

At the top of the steps leading into the building

At the top of the front steps

In the corner, outside the front entrance

or basically any combination that included front steps, outside, and entrance.

If you told me you had a picture of Oswald during the shooting and he's on the first floor, then you showed me one of the PM pics, I would immediately say, "Dude, that guy does look like Oswald! But, you said the first floor and this is a photo of the outside of the building."

Regardless, what I'm wondering is, how many of the thirteen TSBD employees standing on or near the steps during the shooting have come forward to say, "I saw Oswald outside the entrance!" (The eating of his lunch out there would have been a distinguishing feature, but that aside) If before Oswald was shot by Ruby, it would have been to save a man from the electric chair. If after, well, you know the reasons.

This wouldn't include any non-TSBD employees. Although, when Oswald's face hit the media there very well could've been someone in the area who had seen him at the top of the steps and recalled having seen him there.

If you call any "first floor" references a wash, exclude non-TBSD employees and conclude Truly and Baker and Frasier are all bald faced liars, how many of the of the remaining twelve would have to be bald faced liars as well? I guess, that's what I'm wondering at this point.

RevPink89 at August 29, 2015 at 11:32 AM

So, I have never heard of the outside of an entrance to a building referred to as the, "the first floor". If I had seen PM/Oswald where he is pictured, I would have described his whereabouts as:

Just outside the front doors

At the top of the steps leading into the building

At the top of the front steps

In the corner, outside the front entrance

or basically any combination that included front steps, outside, and entrance.

If you told me you had a picture of Oswald during the shooting and he's on the first floor, then you showed me one of the PM pics, I would immediately say, "Dude, that guy does look like Oswald! But, you said the first floor and this is a photo of the outside of the building."

Regardless, what I'm wondering is, how many of the thirteen TSBD employees standing on or near the steps during the shooting have come forward to say, "I saw Oswald outside the entrance!" (The eating of his lunch out there would have been a distinguishing feature, but that aside) If before Oswald was shot by Ruby, it would have been to save a man from the electric chair. If after, well, you know the reasons.

This wouldn't include any non-TSBD employees. Although, when Oswald's face hit the media there very well could've been someone in the area who had seen him at the top of the steps and recalled having seen him there.

If you call any "first floor" references a wash, exclude non-TBSD employees and conclude Truly and Baker and Frasier are all bald faced liars, how many of the of the remaining twelve would have to be bald faced liars as well? I guess, that's what I'm wondering at this point.

 

Unless you are arguing for it being a stranger, the questions you raise are not really necessary to answer because if it is a TSBD employee, it is LHO by process of elimination. To think a stranger would wander up the steps, or sneak in from behind, and benignly eat his lunch (or whatever he was doing there) in the corner of the 1st floor vestibule while a high dignitary rides by is far more inconsistent with expected usual behavioral norms than referring to the doorway as the 1st floor, especially when the central question in this particular milieu was all about locations of persons relative to the 6th floor. Anyone with a focus on which floor who was on, whether it be he (Oswald) himself or any other investigator might well utilize that lexicon for emphasis given the circumstances. These were not casual observations and statements about matters of little consequence, these words were uttered and recorded in the context of a crisis, whether that crisis was the murder or the cover up.

Jake at August 29, 2015 at 12:05 PM

RevPink89 at August 29, 2015 at 11:32 AM

So, I have never heard of the outside of an entrance to a building referred to as the, "the first floor". If I had seen PM/Oswald where he is pictured, I would have described his whereabouts as:

Just outside the front doors

At the top of the steps leading into the building

At the top of the front steps

In the corner, outside the front entrance

or basically any combination that included front steps, outside, and entrance.

If you told me you had a picture of Oswald during the shooting and he's on the first floor, then you showed me one of the PM pics, I would immediately say, "Dude, that guy does look like Oswald! But, you said the first floor and this is a photo of the outside of the building."

Regardless, what I'm wondering is, how many of the thirteen TSBD employees standing on or near the steps during the shooting have come forward to say, "I saw Oswald outside the entrance!" (The eating of his lunch out there would have been a distinguishing feature, but that aside) If before Oswald was shot by Ruby, it would have been to save a man from the electric chair. If after, well, you know the reasons.

This wouldn't include any non-TSBD employees. Although, when Oswald's face hit the media there very well could've been someone in the area who had seen him at the top of the steps and recalled having seen him there.

If you call any "first floor" references a wash, exclude non-TBSD employees and conclude Truly and Baker and Frasier are all bald faced liars, how many of the of the remaining twelve would have to be bald faced liars as well? I guess, that's what I'm wondering at this point.

 

Unless you are arguing for it being a stranger, the questions you raise are not really necessary to answer because if it is a TSBD employee, it is LHO by process of elimination. To think a stranger would wander up the steps, or sneak in from behind, and benignly eat his lunch (or whatever he was doing there) in the corner of the 1st floor vestibule while a high dignitary rides by is far more inconsistent with expected usual behavioral norms than referring to the doorway as the 1st floor, especially when the central question in this particular milieu was all about locations of persons relative to the 6th floor. Anyone with a focus on which floor who was on, whether it be he (Oswald) himself or any other investigator might well utilize that lexicon for emphasis given the circumstances. These were not casual observations and statements about matters of little consequence, these words were uttered and recorded in the context of a crisis, whether that crisis was the murder or the cover up.

Agreed one and all. The notion that people on the steps would counter or challenge the authorities line after Oswalds arrest and being charged is laughable IMO. 1963 Dallas Texas I wouldn't have imagined was a place to question the DPD, FBI or SS. I can imagine one being told they were mistaken, and told in no un certain terms the official version was the way it was. Period! Just saying.

Unless you are arguing for it being a stranger, the questions you raise are not really necessary to answer because if it is a TSBD employee, it is LHO by process of elimination. To think a stranger would wander up the steps, or sneak in from behind, and benignly eat his lunch (or whatever he was doing there) in the corner of the 1st floor vestibule while a high dignitary rides by is far more inconsistent with expected usual behavioral norms than referring to the doorway as the 1st floor,

Nah, Jake, (My Texan friends would say that) I'm not really arguing that PM was a stranger to the people who could have seen him there. I wouldn't say that it was someone who had wandered up the steps or had snuck in from behind, either. I'm sure we could all come up with a dozen possible, yet highly improbable scenarios. I appreciate you just tossing out a few. If I were a lone gunman advocate or just a devil's advocate, I would probably suggest that it was a local worker, non-TSBD, who was familiar with at least the outside of the building or someone who was just in Dealey to see the President and that he thought it was perfectly harmless to stand up there. I would say he was taking pictures, rather than having lunch, and just wanted to get in the shade. I would argue that he would have had no idea who worked there or not and just assumed people were on the steps to get a better view. I would say we have no idea how crowded the steps were at the exact time he climbed up. Something along those lines, anyway. Heck, I once climbed up to the vestibule of a law office with my Dad to watch the parade of a national champion basketball team and we stood there right in the midst of the $1,000 suits. I don't want to site a bunch of similar situations. I just wanted to comment that the notion that it can't be a "stranger", is not a slam dunk; a stranger that looks a lot like Oswald, well that's more of a challenge. But, I remember watching the OJ defense team argue that there was a very reasonable possibility that the real murderer just happened to share the rarest blood type in the world with OJ, not to mention a pair of gloves that were identified by the owner of Isotoner as from a batch that was only sold for a few months at a few stores, etc...I digress.

the questions you raise are not really necessary to answer because if it is a TSBD employee, it is LHO by process of elimination..... Anyone with a focus on which floor who was on, whether it be he (Oswald) himself or any other investigator might well utilize that lexicon for emphasis given the circumstances. These were not casual observations and statements about matters of little consequence, these words were uttered and recorded in the context of a crisis, whether that crisis was the murder or the cover up

That sounds reasonable. So, explicit and corroborative eyewitness testimony placing Oswald at the location of Prayer Man at the time of the Darnell and Weigman photos above, is not necessary to proving that PM is Oswald. OK, no problem there. Hence, one who is arguing PM is LHO doesn't need Buell Wesley Frasier.

Unless, this was presented to an official investigative committee of the Federal Government or the Texas State Government as evidence that LHO couldn't have killed JFK. Then, after confirming the photos as genuine, originals or first generation I would assume, and assuming the resolution has been improved, one of the first issues to deal with would be whether it could be a stranger. And on and on, then the question will arise, "Has anyone testified that they saw LHO in the position as seen in the photos?"

To my knowledge the answer would have to be, "No".

So here comes BWF.

And as he says: "I don't think witnesses/TSBD employees needed to lie about seeing Oswald on the steps." " Either they didn't remember or they didn't care to." "Myself included." "I never saw him there and neither did anyone else."

The notion that people on the steps would counter or challenge the authorities line after Oswalds arrest and being charged is laughable IMO. 1963 Dallas Texas I wouldn't have imagined was a place to question the DPD, FBI or SS. I can imagine one being told they were mistaken, and told in no un certain terms the official version was the way it was

Yep, I hear you, there. But, no one did in the 70's, 80's, 90's and beyond and no death bed revelations, as far as I know. So, why would BWF change his story, now?

Well done RevPink89. We grant that common sense gets put to tests beyond reasonable rigor once it enters a court room (it's a street fight), but I think we have enough here to satisfy a grand jury at the least (but that's me of course).

That the arguments for it being a stranger would come up in court is not disputable and I think you did a nice job laying how they would be framed. You alluded to the crux of it by referring to the extent to which the image looks like LHO. The question that I wonder about in that regard is how many points of correlation are required? I think of a finger print and the needed number of matches, so some kind of similar metric that would apply to the image. We now have the hairline, the body build, and the posture. How far does that get us and how much more do we need? 

You refer to the possibility of a local worker who knows his way around and settles in at this location totally unseen. Let's stipulate that he slipped in through the door while the parade was coming down Houston and nobody noticed him (and the films of the vestibule for that time frame are conveniently fubar). So there he is having made this special effort to witness the motorcade and it turns to Elm and passes. Shots are fired and Altgens takes his famous photo. Everyone on the steps in Altgens is intensly interested except for PM. Why not peer around the corner of the vestibule in the space available in front of Lovelady? He wouldn't have to be rude about it. There was plenty of room. Actually we know what he was doing from Weigman. He was back in that corner moving around doing something, taking pictures or eating lunch are the two basic activities people seem to agree on. Then there are the Couch and Darnell films. Now he's standing near the front edge of the vestibule with arms crossed (while Baker is running up toward his location) and he's basically standing still, unlike everyone else in the film with the notable exception of BWF next to him. Everyone else is excitedly moving around while PM and BWF appear as an island of calm within that storm.

To further assess this strange stranger, let's say he was eating his lunch, missed the shooting, and then stood on the steps with arms crossed while everyone else on the streets, sidewalk, and steps, most of whom are identifiable thanks to 50 plus years of figuring out who they were, are in a state of trauma and activity yet nobody, not one person, and in particular not this man himself, is on record reporting his presence at the scene. He was an eye witness. He happened to be there. Why oh why does he show up nowhere? That absence is conspicuous. 

Alternatively let's say he was taking pictures, all in the above paragraph still applies, but where are the pictures? Even if he forgot to put film in the camera, where is the story of the man who would have had a wealth of pictures that day but forgot to put film in his camera? Nothing adds up if he's really supposed to be a stranger. 

Give me better images showing in better detail that PM very much resembles LHO and if I'm on the jury, I see the arguments for his being a stranger as what they are: not reasonable. Even without better pictures; if he's not a stranger, the jig's in danger (to paraphrase Johnny C., may he RIP).

Correction, he's not toward the front of the vestibule in Couch and Darnell, but is in a conspicuous spot up there surveying the scene. Plenty of valuable information to report from that individual, just like everyone else that was there that day.Yet he vanishes into thin air as far as the official record goes. It's very fishy.

Lets make this simple. If you believe PM = Oswald and this forum wants the case reopened then BWF is important and is valuable to help us do this. Its not about whether we want  BWF to agree or not, Texas law as far as I know says the case is still an unsolved murder. BWF is alive. He knows who that guy was standing on the steps next to him. He has said its Shelley, we know thats a lie, he says its someone he can't recall. (Bullshit) He can be called to answer legally....He knows who it is and its Lee Harvey Oswald. 

RevPink89 at August 30, 2015 at 10:57 AM

Unless you are arguing for it being a stranger, the questions you raise are not really necessary to answer because if it is a TSBD employee, it is LHO by process of elimination. To think a stranger would wander up the steps, or sneak in from behind, and benignly eat his lunch (or whatever he was doing there) in the corner of the 1st floor vestibule while a high dignitary rides by is far more inconsistent with expected usual behavioral norms than referring to the doorway as the 1st floor,

 

Nah, Jake, (My Texan friends would say that) I'm not really arguing that PM was a stranger to the people who could have seen him there. I wouldn't say that it was someone who had wandered up the steps or had snuck in from behind, either. I'm sure we could all come up with a dozen possible, yet highly improbable scenarios. I appreciate you just tossing out a few. If I were a lone gunman advocate or just a devil's advocate, I would probably suggest that it was a local worker, non-TSBD, who was familiar with at least the outside of the building or someone who was just in Dealey to see the President and that he thought it was perfectly harmless to stand up there. I would say he was taking pictures, rather than having lunch, and just wanted to get in the shade. I would argue that he would have had no idea who worked there or not and just assumed people were on the steps to get a better view. I would say we have no idea how crowded the steps were at the exact time he climbed up. Something along those lines, anyway. Heck, I once climbed up to the vestibule of a law office with my Dad to watch the parade of a national champion basketball team and we stood there right in the midst of the $1,000 suits. I don't want to site a bunch of similar situations. I just wanted to comment that the notion that it can't be a "stranger", is not a slam dunk; a stranger that looks a lot like Oswald, well that's more of a challenge. But, I remember watching the OJ defense team argue that there was a very reasonable possibility that the real murderer just happened to share the rarest blood type in the world with OJ, not to mention a pair of gloves that were identified by the owner of Isotoner as from a batch that was only sold for a few months at a few stores, etc...I digress.

 

the questions you raise are not really necessary to answer because if it is a TSBD employee, it is LHO by process of elimination..... Anyone with a focus on which floor who was on, whether it be he (Oswald) himself or any other investigator might well utilize that lexicon for emphasis given the circumstances. These were not casual observations and statements about matters of little consequence, these words were uttered and recorded in the context of a crisis, whether that crisis was the murder or the cover up

 

That sounds reasonable. So, explicit and corroborative eyewitness testimony placing Oswald at the location of Prayer Man at the time of the Darnell and Weigman photos above, is not necessary to proving that PM is Oswald. OK, no problem there. Hence, one who is arguing PM is LHO doesn't need Buell Wesley Frasier.

Unless, this was presented to an official investigative committee of the Federal Government or the Texas State Government as evidence that LHO couldn't have killed JFK. Then, after confirming the photos as genuine, originals or first generation I would assume, and assuming the resolution has been improved, one of the first issues to deal with would be whether it could be a stranger. And on and on, then the question will arise, "Has anyone testified that they saw LHO in the position as seen in the photos?"

To my knowledge the answer would have to be, "No".

So here comes BWF.

And as he says: "I don't think witnesses/TSBD employees needed to lie about seeing Oswald on the steps." " Either they didn't remember or they didn't care to." "Myself included." "I never saw him there and neither did anyone else."

 

The notion that people on the steps would counter or challenge the authorities line after Oswalds arrest and being charged is laughable IMO. 1963 Dallas Texas I wouldn't have imagined was a place to question the DPD, FBI or SS. I can imagine one being told they were mistaken, and told in no un certain terms the official version was the way it was

 

Yep, I hear you, there. But, no one did in the 70's, 80's, 90's and beyond and no death bed revelations, as far as I know. So, why would BWF change his story, now?

 

RevPink89,

Regarding your argument that PM could be a non-TSBD worker, could you identify what flaw(s) you have found in the reasoning of Sean Murphy and others in this regard on the original Prayer Man thread in the Education Forum.

Could you also identify what flaw(s) of similar import you have found in my reasoning in my previous post on this thread and in the thread I linked to in that post.

In the ED Forum PM thread, Sean Murphy posted these comments from Gary Mack in September 2013:

While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn't clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn't confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

Next I asked about Shelley's appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5'8"), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he "dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts." And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for "a short time" after the last shot, but he didn't estimate how long.

So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD "Miscellaneous Department" manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley's testimony, "I didn’t do anything for a minute" following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.

Sean said this was "a real breakthrough." Why? Not because of the Shelley idea, for Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.

Mr. BALL - And Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance, said Sean. Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps. So Shelley is ruled out. Period.

Sean said the reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility Frazier himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. In other words, Frazier – who was standing a couple feet away at the time – has effectively limited the possibilities to just Shelley and Lovelady. This is a powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location. And the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being Prayer Man have been thoroughly ruled out previously.

Then recall one year later, Frazier was able to identify himself in the Darnell image. Who knows, maybe Wes will be able to remember even more in 2015? 

Depends who you're looking for, RevPink89, I guess, at the time of the shots. I am looking for Oswald and PM looks a lot like Oswald. I am not looking for strangers like you are.

Once the resolution issue is resolved or another photo or portion of another 8mm film is discovered I agree that the champagne and high fives are well deserved. They are well deserved now come to think of it. I have nothing but respect for those here and elsewhere who have carried the torch. I have said it before and I am saying it again here now. This will be a historic chapter in JFK assasination research and it will be thanks to the folks here at ROKC and the other researchers who have pursued it. I think that may even happen sometime in the near future, hopefully it could take place by the proposed release of pertinent documents in Oct., of 2017.

With the photos available now at their current resolution, with what I have read here at ROKC and other forums as well as related books, I would conclude that PM is Oswald is the most reasonable explanation.

So, end of discussion? I  think having someone throw stones at the castle helps the argument become more vigorous. Just look at the responses above. Every time members here respond to comments like mine, the argument becomes more concise and more more easily understood by the layman. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that the purpose of allowing people like me admittance to a forum like this? 

I could easily see a member of the oppositio taking a preemptory strike by saying PM is Jack Ruby. He's stockier than Oswald, has the same receding hairline and the forearm look like that of a former boxer and fitness freak. He Ended up having to kill Oswald in custody, but we know he was at Parkland and he stalked him at the police station. This was the result of not being able to kill him at the TSBD. Killing the killer, classic mob move.Oswald saw him out there, hence he stayed there on the first floor inside and was seen by a number of witness in various locations, 1st floor not 6th. Oswald escapes, Ruby disappears. Ruby, just like the FBI, SS etc., wields his own influence through his underground connections and creates the alibi of being at the ad agency five blocks away. He threatened  everyone who could claim otherwise and ala Blakey, it was indeed the Oswald/Ruby/Mob who killed Kennedy. Complete balderdash? Sure, but it is exactly that kind of stuff that is going to start getting out in the media before a grand jury is convened. The mob angle sells.

So, I just toss ideas out there for you guys to swat them down and your argument gets stronger. I mean, until better pics come out, i think it might be a good idea to run through countering some of the possible objections that the @wank splat jizz tossing toffers......whatever, are going to use. They"re not going to go down without a fight. For them, the best venue is in the popular media where ideas like I'm suggesting, if the cretate a little controversy sell ad time and are given warrant accordingly.

I still say, accosting or being antagonistic towards BWF won't help the cause. There has to be a way where he wins and PM/Oswald wins, IMO.

RevPink89 at August 30, 2015 at 9:41 PM

Once the resolution issue is resolved or another photo or portion of another 8mm film is discovered I agree that the champagne and high fives are well deserved. They are well deserved now come to think of it. I have nothing but respect for those here and elsewhere who have carried the torch. I have said it before and I am saying it again here now. This will be a historic chapter in JFK assasination research and it will be thanks to the folks here at ROKC and the other researchers who have pursued it. I think that may even happen sometime in the near future, hopefully it could take place by the proposed release of pertinent documents in Oct., of 2017.

With the photos available now at their current resolution, with what I have read here at ROKC and other forums as well as related books, I would conclude that PM is Oswald is the most reasonable explanation.

So, end of discussion? I  think having someone throw stones at the castle helps the argument become more vigorous. Just look at the responses above. Every time members here respond to comments like mine, the argument becomes more concise and more more easily understood by the layman. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that the purpose of allowing people like me admittance to a forum like this? 

I could easily see a member of the oppositio taking a preemptory strike by saying PM is Jack Ruby. He's stockier than Oswald, has the same receding hairline and the forearm look like that of a former boxer and fitness freak. He Ended up having to kill Oswald in custody, but we know he was at Parkland and he stalked him at the police station. This was the result of not being able to kill him at the TSBD. Killing the killer, classic mob move.Oswald saw him out there, hence he stayed there on the first floor inside and was seen by a number of witness in various locations, 1st floor not 6th. Oswald escapes, Ruby disappears. Ruby, just like the FBI, SS etc., wields his own influence through his underground connections and creates the alibi of being at the ad agency five blocks away. He threatened  everyone who could claim otherwise and ala Blakey, it was indeed the Oswald/Ruby/Mob who killed Kennedy. Complete balderdash? Sure, but it is exactly that kind of stuff that is going to start getting out in the media before a grand jury is convened. The mob angle sells.

So, I just toss ideas out there for you guys to swat them down and your argument gets stronger. I mean, until better pics come out, i think it might be a good idea to run through countering some of the possible objections that the @wank splat jizz tossing toffers......whatever, are going to use. They"re not going to go down without a fight. For them, the best venue is in the popular media where ideas like I'm suggesting, if the cretate a little controversy sell ad time and are given warrant accordingly.

I still say, accosting or being antagonistic towards BWF won't help the cause. There has to be a way where he wins and PM/Oswald wins, IMO.

We're all aware of PM's limitations, RevPink89. We're no strangers to that but I will say that spending too much time on them is a waste of time. If no one can prove PM is a stranger then why bother?

Killing the killer, classic mob move.

I take issue with this Rev, it is Bugliosi logic and is wrong.

If you kill for the mob, the mob DOES NOT KILL YOU. They protect you.
The last thing the mob wants is no killers due to them all winding up dead.
Hard to get recruits if they all died, this isnt hezbollah and suicidal members.

I can state cases of killers for the mob killing for years till they got caught etc.
http://listverse.com/2014/06/07/10-deadliest-hit-men-you39ve-probably-never-heard-of/

In fact the mob had a guy whom took out dozens and is still alive. Why wasn't he killed?
He did not talk and did not try and extort more money for his services.
That is a whackable offence, doing your job and being quiet about it is not.

Shit if they were trying to knock off a hitman he would kill the boss who tries to kill him.
So as you can see it would be very messy, and doesn't happen the way Bugliosi' fantasy suggests.

Whom kills the killers killers killers killer....