REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Ed Ledoux at November 21, 2015 at 5:54 AM

Mick, Vinny just posted this,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3326233/I-drove-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-book-depository-don-t-believe-shot-JFK-52-years-assassination-Oswald-s-friend-says-convinced-patsy-real-gunman-grassy-knoll.html#ixzz3s4BOE9sK

See what Buell says

While Buell, now aged 71, said he doubts that Oswald acted alone he is skeptical that anyone else could have been in the book depository to fire on the Presidential motorcade.

Back in 1963, he said, employees would have noticed a stranger in the building.

'Oswald did have access to the book depository as he worked there and he was present on the day of the assassination. I know. I dropped him there.'

 

How about that Mick!!!

 

Very Good Ed!

We know different.

Back in 1963, he said, employees would have noticed a stranger in the building.

Thank-you Buell, no strangers then. Excellent!

Then you really should know who that is standing next to you on the stairs.

We should ask him about Dropping his Rider Off.

But you are right he makes the case for no strangers in the building.

And seeing as Lee Harvey Oswald was two feet away from Buell excludes Oswald, thus no shots were fired from the TSBD, as there would be no one in the building to shoot out that window.

From a poster on JFK  Facts.

David Regan

November 22, 2015 at 8:55 am

I am attending the conference in Dallas and there have been some excellent presentations including Bill Simpich, Marie Fonzi, Jim Jenkins, Buell Frazier and Parkland Doctors panel.

Buell Frazier announced he is working on a book that is planned for release next year. Some interesting points from his presentation:

– he stated that he saw LHO leaving the TSBD about 8-10 minutes after the shooting while standing at the corner of Houston & Elm with coworkers. He said Oswald came out the rear loading dock (currently museum gift shop) on Elm St and casually crossed the street and lost sight of him in the crowd. Interesting given the WC claims he walked out the front door.

– he spoke at length about his being picked up by the DPD that afternoon and being held for hours by Detectives Stovall and Rose. He was told to sign a confession by Will Fritz and when he refused, Fritz raised his hand as if about to hit Frazier. This was before he had even learned that his coworker had been arrested and charged for the assassination.

For what it’s worth, I spoke with Frazier briefly after his presentation and asked if Oswald had at any time spoken about JFK or showed any interest in the upcoming vist to Dallas and he said no. Frazier also answered in the negative when I asked is Oswald had ever shown any tendency or capacity for violence. He spoke about Lee being a diligent coworker, intelligent person and caring father to his children.

Vinny at November 25, 2015 at 5:48 AM

From a poster on JFK  Facts.

David Regan

November 22, 2015 at 8:55 am

 

I am attending the conference in Dallas and there have been some excellent presentations including Bill Simpich, Marie Fonzi, Jim Jenkins, Buell Frazier and Parkland Doctors panel.

 

Buell Frazier announced he is working on a book that is planned for release next year. Some interesting points from his presentation:

 

– he stated that he saw LHO leaving the TSBD about 8-10 minutes after the shooting while standing at the corner of Houston & Elm with coworkers. He said Oswald came out the rear loading dock (currently museum gift shop) on Elm St and casually crossed the street and lost sight of him in the crowd. Interesting given the WC claims he walked out the front door.

 

– he spoke at length about his being picked up by the DPD that afternoon and being held for hours by Detectives Stovall and Rose. He was told to sign a confession by Will Fritz and when he refused, Fritz raised his hand as if about to hit Frazier. This was before he had even learned that his coworker had been arrested and charged for the assassination.

 

For what it’s worth, I spoke with Frazier briefly after his presentation and asked if Oswald had at any time spoken about JFK or showed any interest in the upcoming vist to Dallas and he said no. Frazier also answered in the negative when I asked is Oswald had ever shown any tendency or capacity for violence. He spoke about Lee being a diligent coworker, intelligent person and caring father to his children.

He said Oswald came out the rear loading dock (currently museum gift shop) on Elm St

Emphasis mine - is this correct?

Sounds a lot like Truly sighting Givens, and thus why Mr T did not send the hounds after him.

Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?

Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?

Mr. TRULY. Walking east.

Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?

Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the Houston Street.

But Buell seeing him walking across the street and yet he said nothing about this to Truly or the DPD during the polygraph, pistol whippings and such...yet he mentions in other accounts before about noticing Lee missing or not with the group...wth?
Now Buell writes a door stop whats new. So will he address Prayer Man or Buell's own myriad of evolving tales?

I called and left a message.

If memeory serves me well and it may not, but I seem to recall the loading dock exit was mentioned by Wesley  in one of the you-tube interviews in this thread, it caused a stir back when it was discovered. 

I agree with Ed, sounds like the testimony of Truly's re: Given's sighting.

More and more it seems Wesley just doesn't want the truth to surface about his movements after the assassination. There would seem to be at least 4-5 different versions of what he claims took place after the shots.

That to my mind is not misrembering, the arrest of Wes has 4-5 different versions too. He never was clear on how he came to get the job in at the TSBD in the first place let alone why he left Hunstville to come to the big smoke and sleep on a couch in a house full to the brim with people.

He is a key to this mess IMO. He is a man whom I believe could help put an end to the lies. He knows a lot more than he is willing to tell IMO. 

But time is our enemy.

Lets see if he remembers John A. McCabe arrested him (or detained him) and took him to Irving PD

Doubt he follows the official line, for what ever reason he has shifted from it.

Yes Ed, and thats why Wes is an interesting fellow. A curious player in the assassination lore

Mick Purdy at December 1, 2015 at 5:44 PM

If memeory serves me well and it may not, but I seem to recall the loading dock exit was mentioned by Wesley  in one of the you-tube interviews in this thread, it caused a stir back when it was discovered. 

I agree with Ed, sounds like the testimony of Truly's re: Given's sighting.

More and more it seems Wesley just doesn't want the truth to surface about his movements after the assassination. There would seem to be at least 4-5 different versions of what he claims took place after the shots.

That to my mind is not misrembering, the arrest of Wes has 4-5 different versions too. He never was clear on how he came to get the job in at the TSBD in the first place let alone why he left Hunstville to come to the big smoke and sleep on a couch in a house full to the brim with people.

He is a key to this mess IMO. He is a man whom I believe could help put an end to the lies. He knows a lot more than he is willing to tell IMO. 

But time is our enemy.

I think your memory is serving well because I can also recall being flumoxed by his remarks. My brain always wants to make sense of things even when there is none so my only mental recourse was to wonder if he meant that gate that opens onto the Elm St extension (the original Elm St).

I was reminded of that also by Barto's movie. I froze it on the plan of the first floor. I've heard that gate referred to as leading to parking, but my read of the plan has the gate leading to a loading dock that appears to have served the train loading/unloading activities while the actual vehicle parking area appears as an open sided shed accessed from the west side parking lot / train yard, not by driving through the gate. Was that gate locked I wonder. Did Oswald wait behind it for a vehicle to come by then ran out and down the lawn, a la Craig? Maybe someone locked it behind him at that point. That little area in there would have made a nice little out of the way operations node of sorts.

So maybe LHO waited for Baker and Truly to chat and pass, then went inside from the steps (PM position), through the shipping dept on the first floor, out a west side door, onto the train loading dock, hopped down from dock, waited behind that gate, and then exited through it. Perhaps that is how WF saw him "cross Elm from the loading dock". It's all I can think of to make sense of it.

That shipping and receiving operation was quite the little complex what with the train access on one side (the west side train access), trucks and pedestrians on the Houston street side (the east side access), the shipping/receiving/elevator warehousing floor area located in between them, and finally that added gateway and access point to the train side loading area from the Elm Street (south) side. 

Jake, That would be Lovelady's area. He unloaded and drove the truck.
Cops ran up and closed that gate when they finally surrounded the building.
Wes was saying he saw him crossing Houston as if he was going to go catch Cecil's bus SEVEN blocks from where Cecil said he picked up a man...

Jake,

I'm not going mad and neither are you.............

CSPAN.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Watch from 12-40 through to 15-52.

My goodness Wesley is full of it. He can't help himself. It borders on some form of compulsive behaviour disorder.

I wonder what has triggered such story telling.

Ed Ledoux at December 3, 2015 at 4:26 PM

Jake, That would be Lovelady's area. He unloaded and drove the truck.
Cops ran up and closed that gate when they finally surrounded the building.
Wes was saying he saw him crossing Houston as if he was going to go catch Cecil's bus SEVEN blocks from where Cecil said he picked up a man...

Thanks Ed. So the gate wasn't locked. That patsey wasn't very tidy was he? First he leaves his pop bottle and lunch sack on the steps, then he leaves the gate to the loading dock open. Other things on his mind I suppose. Looks as though the Cops picked up the litter and closed the gate for him though.

Mick Purdy at December 3, 2015 at 4:45 PM

Jake,

I'm not going mad and neither are you.............

CSPAN.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Watch from 12-40 through to 15-52.

My goodness Wesley is full of it. He can't help himself. It borders on some form of compulsive behaviour disorder.

I wonder what has triggered such story telling.

Thanks Mick. That interview is amazing. So GM asks WF did he see Oswald after the assassination. His level eyed answer with his hand covering his mouth is "Ah no". Then WF goes on to describe how he did see him after the assassination "walking along the side of the building from the rear loading dock" (GM actually puts words those words in WF's mouth). Plus WF is on the steps no? X-ray vision is great for seeing through buildings like that because that side of the building (the side facing Houston) is around the corner from WF. He does say Lee crosses Houston then Elm, not Elm then Houston, which would make a lot more sense from his vantage point since from the steps Oswald would need to use the cross walks; first across Houston where WF could see him from the steps, then across Elm on the east side of Houston, but then he's heading for Main St on Houston. That does not sound to me like it's following the program. 

But here's the part that got me most really: At 13-03 when he says "When we were...(pauses)". Look at his jaw clamp. I mean he grinds his teeth. It's like he just almost stepped off the cliff but stops himself just in the nick of time. "We" may have meant -Lee and Me-, perhaps. He then repeats "When we were" and gives it the context of meaning he and other people in general. Nice catch perhaps. Whew! Close call? Maybe.

Jake at December 3, 2015 at 5:26 PM

Mick Purdy at December 3, 2015 at 4:45 PM

Jake,

I'm not going mad and neither are you.............

CSPAN.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Watch from 12-40 through to 15-52.

My goodness Wesley is full of it. He can't help himself. It borders on some form of compulsive behaviour disorder.

I wonder what has triggered such story telling.

Thanks Mick. That interview is amazing. So GM asks WF did he see Oswald after the assassination. His level eyed answer with his hand covering his mouth is "Ah no". Then WF goes on to describe how he did see him after the assassination "walking along the side of the building from the rear loading dock" (GM actually puts words those words in WF's mouth). Plus WF is on the steps no? X-ray vision is great for seeing through buildings like that because that side of the building (the side facing Houston) is around the corner from WF. He does say Lee crosses Houston then Elm, not Elm then Houston, which would make a lot more sense from his vantage point since from the steps Oswald would need to use the cross walks; first across Houston where WF could see him from the steps, then across Elm on the east side of Houston, but then he's heading for Main St on Houston. That does not sound to me like it's following the program. 

But here's the part that got me most really: At 13-03 when he says "When we were...(pauses)". Look at his jaw clamp. I mean he grinds his teeth. It's like he just almost stepped off the cliff but stops himself just in the nick of time. "We" may have meant -Lee and Me-, perhaps. He then repeats "When we were" and gives it the context of meaning he and other people in general. Nice catch perhaps. Whew! Close call? Maybe.

But here's the part that got me most really: At 13-03 when he says "When we were...(pauses)". Look at his jaw clamp. I mean he grinds his teeth. It's like he just almost stepped off the cliff but stops himself just in the nick of time. "We" may have meant -Lee and Me-, perhaps. He then repeats "When we were" and gives it the context of meaning he and other people in general. Nice catch perhaps. Whew! Close call? Maybe.

Think Wesley may have come awfully close to slipping up.

I'm glad you mentioned this Jake, you were not on your own. I had ear marked this "grab" too. 

Perhaps I'm guilty of over thinking, but then again Wesley cannot keep up with his own deception. I'm inclined to believe he might have been referring to Lee after all when using the "we"

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I would put money on Frazier leaving with Oswald.......

Me too Mick. Forget the Rambler, disinfo and hasn't been shown Oswald was by the pergola to hop a ride in it.
Unless that is Wesley's new job, divert away from any other exit by LHO and steer that exit towards the bus.
Were the Paine's phone records kept?
Was there a call from Oak Cliff to the Paine residence about 1ish. It would not be a local call but a toll call and recorded.
This would lend credence to Oswald being dropped off and calling to meet with Marina to buy some shoes for the kids. If there was a call and Lee had to wait for them to finish the laundry etc. he would waste time by watching a movie. If he was tailed or Wes told Linnie, and Linnie blabbed to the cops about this then yes they would have invaded the Texas Theater as they did. Or Ruth intercepted the call, and she blabbed that Lee was waiting at the theater to IPD.

Timing and phone records would make a case for this.
Sorry just thinking with my fingers...

Bringing this over from Prayerman thread.

Thanks to Goban and Faroe.

steely dan at November 28, 2015 at 10:45 PM

Geronimo, i think it was Goban, who first brought this up in the old forums PM thread.

Thanks for the acknowledgment, Steely. My observation about Ball’s interruption of Lovelady was my first post in a JFK forum. That detail may have been previously unnoticed by anyone else because it was only when the Sean Murphy EF Prayer Man debate really took off in 2013 that it became important.

I know I should be doing penance for my recent mega blooper but I can’t help commenting on an article about a recent interview with BW Frazier in the Daily Mail that was posted by Ed Ledoux:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3326233/I-drove-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-book-depository-don-t-believe-shot-JFK-52-years-assassination-Oswald-s-friend-says-convinced-patsy-real-gunman-grassy-knoll.html#ixzz3s4BOE9sK

In the article Frazier is quoted as saying, ‘I stood on the steps at the front of the building and had a good view as the motorcade went passed.(sic)'

The next sentence is: “He wasn't aware of where Oswald was standing and never saw him again that day.”

That sentence clearly implies that Frazier knew that Oswald was standing in or around the TSBD doorway at the time of the assassination but that he didn’t know where exactly he was standing.

That sense is reinforced by the word “again” in the second clause of the sentence. The word “again” clearly implies that Frazier saw Oswald in or around the TSBD doorway around the time the motorcade passed.

Frazier seems to be covering the angles here. He can plausibly claim to not know where exactly Oswald was standing when the motorcade passed by because at that instant he would be watching the motorcade and be unaware of Oswald’s precise location.

That may also explain why he told the Warren Commission he was standing one step down from the landing rather than at the front edge of the landing as indicated in the Darnell film: by placing himself farther forward than he really was, he was giving himself “plausible deniability” should evidence ever emerge that Oswald was standing in the north west corner of the TSBD doorway and he could claim not to have seen him (Oswald) there.

On three separate occasions over the past two years or so that Frazier has made comments that have a bearing on the Prayer Man issue he has undeniably confirmed, albeit indirectly, that Prayer Man is Oswald.

December 5, 2015 at 8:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Faroe Islander

Member

Posts: 51

Interesting info from Sprague in 1967 he tells us that PM is taking a photo ? or is it somebody else

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62434#relPageId=19&tab=page

And another lil birdie was just inside the doorway Mick, he was never called to answer before the WC.
He said no one left the building after the shooting and all warehouse employees were dismissed at 1:15pm

Which lil birdie are you referring to