REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWl4dFch6uk

Looking more at this video sequence posted by Ed. It starts in front of DTex, follows the cop and perp down the street a little way, (after the odd edit with a static shot back up Elm from west of Houston. Hey Mick, any idea why that was edited in there? What's the production value?).

Perp makes eye contact with cop on corner of DTex (recognition?) then Denham sees the cop in front of TSBD over across Houston, turns his head quickly toward perp and scene cuts.

Next scene is close up of side of perp's head, then other suited men in frame have joined the walk with Denham and perp; they are now walking away from directly in front of TSBD, no doubt about it. The camera man has had time to reposition himself to pick up the action here (it looks like he picks them up on the fly, as if caught off guard. Did they march out of the TSBD and surprise the camera man waiting outside?), so time has elapsed and things have happened. A sequence of the perp walking to the Sherrif's follows, end video. 

Going back to the very beginning of the video now. The officer in rain gear is turning the perp over to Denham (hand holding perp's arm) while communicatiing with someone several floors up in DTex (woman on sidewalk snaps her head up to see who). Points toward perp as if to say "Is this the guy?" then speaks loudly to Denham like "He's yours" or "I'm leaving", and leaves. 

Now about the perp's demeanor. His attention focuses intently from one thing to the next in a way that suggests something is off with him. Drunk maybe? Slightly retarded maybe? He goes from staring intently at the cop in the rain gear, to watching Denham's hands frisk him, to staring at and speaking to the young "Who is this?" guy. Denham has to pull him off his center of gravity to get him moving and he then moves his head to the left in a way that again shows a myopic kind of re-focus on whatever appears in front of his eyes. Down the street ten paces or so and again there is the eye contact with the cop on the corner and the same 'fascinated' or intoxicated focus.

This is a very interesting video Ed and one I obviously haven't seen. Thanks!

Maybe it's the power of suggestion from the other thread discussing Truly's dismassal of someone as "slightly retarded", but I'm associating this guy with that in light of the fact that he was marched over to the TSBD before going to the Sherif's office. I need to try and find more info on this Florer guy, if we know that is indeed his name.

maybe not the right thread but here you can see several seconds of footage where exactly Howard Brennan is sitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OkahcpLacY

No doubt about his name I see. Original Dallas police statement says he took the DTex elevator down by himself, was accosted by cops being directed by man in third floor window saying to stop Florer as he walked out onto street level. Seems consistent with video. Part about the statement that is odd is that Florer says he saw no one exit TSBD while he was by the DTex (before he went to see about a phone per woman on street who said phones on 3rd floor DTex). One of those unneccessary qualifiers like "No one was there" (in the TSDB lobby). Was this needed to differentiate from the time when he was escorted over to the TSBD? That part is skipped in the statement.

Hey, just noticed: He had lunch that day with Richard Bartholomew who worked at the National Bank of Commerce. He of GG Wing and the Ramblers fame?

Ye old thread:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t409-suspect-arrested-on-the-3rd-floor

Sean,

Want to read something interesting?

On June 15, 1978, William Ira Trantham from the Dallas County Sheriff's Office was interviewed by Jack Moriarty of the HSCA. The interview as follows:

Name: Ira Trantham

Date: 6/15/78

Time: 1400

Address: 10119 Newcomb Street, Dallas, Texas

INTERVIEW: Watched the motorcade pass Main and Harwood from the press room of Dallas Police Department Headquarters. Then checked out a cruiser and headed in the opposite direction not having an assignment germane to the Presidential visit.

Had not driven more than a few blocks when the police department radio blared the shooting report at Dealey Plaza. Reversing his direction he responded to that area parking in the freight yard near the rear of the TSBD. Observing uniformed men in the rear with shotguns, then seeing Inspector Sawyer at the front door, he reported for instructions. Sawyer advised they were still not certain where the gunfire came from, but the best guess at that time was the TSBD.

By this time they were joined by Jerry Hill and he and Hill went inside. Hill continued upstairs and an officer W. H. Desham (#7140 DPD) approached him with a prisoner. Advised this subject had been observed "acting suspiciously" on the third floor without a reasonable explanation for being there.

N.B. The name Desham above should read Denham.

Posted by Ed Ledoux

========================================

Greg:

I see "Main and Harwood" in the note above. I think I've established that the motorcade was at Main and Harwood at 12:10 p.m. You have an interest in this particular time, something of which you will reveal in Vol. 2 or 3 later. This guy took action after seeing the motorcade pass Main and Harwood.

Probably just a coincidence?

Just saying.

Jake at August 9, 2015 at 12:19 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWl4dFch6uk

Looking more at this video sequence posted by Ed. It starts in front of DTex, follows the cop and perp down the street a little way, (after the odd edit with a static shot back up Elm from west of Houston. Hey Mick, any idea why that was edited in there? What's the production value?).

Perp makes eye contact with cop on corner of DTex (recognition?) then Denham sees the cop in front of TSBD over across Houston, turns his head quickly toward perp and scene cuts.

Next scene is close up of side of perp's head, then other suited men in frame have joined the walk with Denham and perp; they are now walking away from directly in front of TSBD, no doubt about it. The camera man has had time to reposition himself to pick up the action here (it looks like he picks them up on the fly, as if caught off guard. Did they march out of the TSBD and surprise the camera man waiting outside?), so time has elapsed and things have happened. A sequence of the perp walking to the Sherrif's follows, end video. 

Going back to the very beginning of the video now. The officer in rain gear is turning the perp over to Denham (hand holding perp's arm) while communicatiing with someone several floors up in DTex (woman on sidewalk snaps her head up to see who). Points toward perp as if to say "Is this the guy?" then speaks loudly to Denham like "He's yours" or "I'm leaving", and leaves. 

Now about the perp's demeanor. His attention focuses intently from one thing to the next in a way that suggests something is off with him. Drunk maybe? Slightly retarded maybe? He goes from staring intently at the cop in the rain gear, to watching Denham's hands frisk him, to staring at and speaking to the young "Who is this?" guy. Denham has to pull him off his center of gravity to get him moving and he then moves his head to the left in a way that again shows a myopic kind of re-focus on whatever appears in front of his eyes. Down the street ten paces or so and again there is the eye contact with the cop on the corner and the same 'fascinated' or intoxicated focus.

This is a very interesting video Ed and one I obviously haven't seen. Thanks!

Maybe it's the power of suggestion from the other thread discussing Truly's dismassal of someone as "slightly retarded", but I'm associating this guy with that in light of the fact that he was marched over to the TSBD before going to the Sherif's office. I need to try and find more info on this Florer guy, if we know that is indeed his name.

G'day Jake,

Looks to me to be a standard editing tool in news services of the day and indeed still applied today. A "cutaway" originally used to join shots together which had been interupted due to either camera movement, Camera operator errors, batteries going flat, or quite possibly the camera being used especially in this case could have been a wind up and run its course before rewinding. Failing all that it was/is common to use the cutaway to condense time lines simply to condense the overall material, especially for News.

The edit does seem to be a classic cutaway of onlookers to me for what its worth.

Thanks Mate!

Great responses Jake and all!!
It is an interesting clip/s and agree with Mick it was likely edited for a voice over explaining various things happening at that time.

Cheers!

Weisberg on Marrion Baker and his run.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Texas%20School%20Book%20Depository%20Search/Item%2006.pdf

Baker fails to provide the reason for going into the TSBD.
Pigeon story is complete BS.
I think the conclusion ROKC'ers have put forth that it was to get to roof to view the knoll and railroad yard. He would be able to see a suspect from that vantage point and yell to others if he sees a suspetc fleeing or trying to flee.
I do not belie Baker was entering the TSBD because of shots from there or any other reason except for an elevated view to help spot the knoll shooter.
Why drive past the corner, down Elm a ways, and then park to run back to the entrance. Why not drive up to the entrance or near the corner? Why. Beacuse it was an after thought. He thought he could get the high ground.

Baker's Run was used and abused by the Warren Commission, and adapted on the fly after 11/22.

Ed Ledoux at August 11, 2015 at 1:03 PM

Baker fails to provide the reason for going into the TSBD.
Pigeon story is complete BS.
I think the conclusion ROKC'ers have put forth that it was to get to roof to view the knoll and railroad yard. He would be able to see a suspect from that vantage point and yell to others if he sees a suspetc fleeing or trying to flee.
I do not belie Baker was entering the TSBD because of shots from there or any other reason except for an elevated view to help spot the knoll shooter.
Why drive past the corner, down Elm a ways, and then park to run back to the entrance. Why not drive up to the entrance or near the corner? Why. Beacuse it was an after thought. He thought he could get the high ground.

Baker's Run was used and abused by the Warren Commission, and adapted on the fly after 11/22.

Smashing Jim. Care to explain why?

JimC at August 14, 2015 at 9:20 PM

Ed Ledoux at August 11, 2015 at 1:03 PM

Baker fails to provide the reason for going into the TSBD.
Pigeon story is complete BS.
I think the conclusion ROKC'ers have put forth that it was to get to roof to view the knoll and railroad yard. He would be able to see a suspect from that vantage point and yell to others if he sees a suspetc fleeing or trying to flee.
I do not belie Baker was entering the TSBD because of shots from there or any other reason except for an elevated view to help spot the knoll shooter.
Why drive past the corner, down Elm a ways, and then park to run back to the entrance. Why not drive up to the entrance or near the corner? Why. Beacuse it was an after thought. He thought he could get the high ground.

Baker's Run was used and abused by the Warren Commission, and adapted on the fly after 11/22.

The idea that there might a suspect hanging around anywhere by the time Baker reached the roof doesn't seem reasonable.

I can't see why both you and Ed can't be right.

During those framtic moments, I don't think anyone was ruminating on what be a reasonable propistion regarding the mindset of the sniper/s.

I agree Jim, no way Baker alone, was running in to catch an unknown number of snipers loitering about.
Baker would be running into a vipers pit alone.
No back up. No one to watch the doors as he went in. If he ran in thinking that.
Or he ran into the nearest building to the shots from the knoll area to get aerial perspective on the shooter/s or fleeing suspect/s

Seems painfully obvious he was on a mission after seeing what was happening in front of his eyes in the plaza, the folks running, falling down cops starting to hunt the knoll, so he decides to ditch the bike and run back to the TSBD... So he gets to the roof and looks over the side of the building to see what could be seen. He and Truly check the RR yards and see nothing, so they start back down.

The thing I am unsure of is if Baker-Truly searched at all on the way down.
Whom saw them on Four? Whom saw them on Three? Whom saw them on Two?
Did they actually search or just come down to find out that this building is where shots were now claimed to come from.
It can't be said they came from the roof!!!
Has to be a window due to Baker's run.

Bring on Major Stavis Ellis, he has some intersting things to relay.....

http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40395&search=tsbd_employee+list#relPageId=21&tab=page

This is also a good read about him and the happenings, very interesting.

Baker said that he saw something that would indicate that somebody was shooting out of that window. When he got off his motor near the front of that building, he told the man in charge of that operation and they went inside. They couldn’t get the freight elevator down, so Baker and the man went up the stairs. That’s when they encountered Oswald drinking a coke on the second floor. Baker was told that he was all right, that he worked there. That’s where Baker messed up! He should have sealed off the building and not let anybody out till it was ascertained that nobody there had anything to do with it. He could have saved an officer’s life had he arrested him there, had he done what he was supposed to have done. We don’t say anything to him about it; officers make mistakes just like everybody else.

On the other hand, Baker wasn’t real bright either. Before he went to Washington to testify to the Warren Commission, he went to Captain Lawrence’s office and said, “Captain, I’ve got to go to Washington. Don’t you think the city ought to buy me a suit?” Ain’t that some bull crap? I don’t know why, but the boys called him “Momma Son.” But he was always slow. That’s the reason I didn’t have him in a responsible position on that escort. When I got the assignment from the chief to put somebody on that press bus, I put him there to just trail along.

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/The_deed/Sneed/Ellis.html

Bakers WC testimony. Seems he might not have been so certain of where those shots came from.

Of course with some prompting from Belin he quickly decides it must have been the TSBD.

Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.

Now did Baker have his gun drawn as he approached the steps out front or did that happen inside the building?

Mr. BELIN - All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN - What were you carrying?

Mr. BAKER - I had my revolver out.

Mr. BELIN - When did you take your revolver out?

Mr. BAKER - AS I was starting up the stairway.

From The Mary Ferrel Chronologies.

http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40392#relPageId=165&tab=page

page 164

Jake at August 9, 2015 at 12:19 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWl4dFch6uk

Looking more at this video sequence posted by Ed. It starts in front of DTex, follows the cop and perp down the street a little way, (after the odd edit with a static shot back up Elm from west of Houston. Hey Mick, any idea why that was edited in there? What's the production value?).

Perp makes eye contact with cop on corner of DTex (recognition?) then Denham sees the cop in front of TSBD over across Houston, turns his head quickly toward perp and scene cuts.

Next scene is close up of side of perp's head, then other suited men in frame have joined the walk with Denham and perp; they are now walking away from directly in front of TSBD, no doubt about it. The camera man has had time to reposition himself to pick up the action here (it looks like he picks them up on the fly, as if caught off guard. Did they march out of the TSBD and surprise the camera man waiting outside?), so time has elapsed and things have happened. A sequence of the perp walking to the Sherrif's follows, end video. 

Going back to the very beginning of the video now. The officer in rain gear is turning the perp over to Denham (hand holding perp's arm) while communicatiing with someone several floors up in DTex (woman on sidewalk snaps her head up to see who). Points toward perp as if to say "Is this the guy?" then speaks loudly to Denham like "He's yours" or "I'm leaving", and leaves. 

Now about the perp's demeanor. His attention focuses intently from one thing to the next in a way that suggests something is off with him. Drunk maybe? Slightly retarded maybe? He goes from staring intently at the cop in the rain gear, to watching Denham's hands frisk him, to staring at and speaking to the young "Who is this?" guy. Denham has to pull him off his center of gravity to get him moving and he then moves his head to the left in a way that again shows a myopic kind of re-focus on whatever appears in front of his eyes. Down the street ten paces or so and again there is the eye contact with the cop on the corner and the same 'fascinated' or intoxicated focus.

This is a very interesting video Ed and one I obviously haven't seen. Thanks!

Maybe it's the power of suggestion from the other thread discussing Truly's dismassal of someone as "slightly retarded", but I'm associating this guy with that in light of the fact that he was marched over to the TSBD before going to the Sherif's office. I need to try and find more info on this Florer guy, if we know that is indeed his name.

I researched Lawrence Huber Florer several years ago, and had James Richards post my findings for me at EF.  I didn't know how to upload to the EF the Highland Park High School photo of him that the high school's librarian kindly scanned for me out of the yearbook and sent to me as an e-mail attachment.  Going from memory here, but I think I found out (before I called the high school) that his family lived only about a mile from Highland Park H.S. and that's why I called their library in the first place because HPHS was the closest high school from where the Florer family was living and I figured that that was the highschool he had gone to, and I was right.  I also found out that "Huber" was his mother's or his grandmother's maiden name, if I remember correctly.  I'll see if I can find his highschool photo on the Internet somewhere (it was automatically deleted by EF after a certain amount of time, as were a lot of photos by other EF members) and try to post it somewhere or at least direct you towards it.

--Tommy

Edit:  Can't find his high school photo right now, but his full name and address are listed on this 1978 document:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Drug%20Enforcement%20Administration/Item%2016.pdf

Tom Graves at August 25, 2015 at 10:46 PM

Jake at August 9, 2015 at 12:19 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWl4dFch6uk

Looking more at this video sequence posted by Ed. It starts in front of DTex, follows the cop and perp down the street a little way, (after the odd edit with a static shot back up Elm from west of Houston. Hey Mick, any idea why that was edited in there? What's the production value?).

Perp makes eye contact with cop on corner of DTex (recognition?) then Denham sees the cop in front of TSBD over across Houston, turns his head quickly toward perp and scene cuts.

Next scene is close up of side of perp's head, then other suited men in frame have joined the walk with Denham and perp; they are now walking away from directly in front of TSBD, no doubt about it. The camera man has had time to reposition himself to pick up the action here (it looks like he picks them up on the fly, as if caught off guard. Did they march out of the TSBD and surprise the camera man waiting outside?), so time has elapsed and things have happened. A sequence of the perp walking to the Sherrif's follows, end video. 

Going back to the very beginning of the video now. The officer in rain gear is turning the perp over to Denham (hand holding perp's arm) while communicatiing with someone several floors up in DTex (woman on sidewalk snaps her head up to see who). Points toward perp as if to say "Is this the guy?" then speaks loudly to Denham like "He's yours" or "I'm leaving", and leaves. 

Now about the perp's demeanor. His attention focuses intently from one thing to the next in a way that suggests something is off with him. Drunk maybe? Slightly retarded maybe? He goes from staring intently at the cop in the rain gear, to watching Denham's hands frisk him, to staring at and speaking to the young "Who is this?" guy. Denham has to pull him off his center of gravity to get him moving and he then moves his head to the left in a way that again shows a myopic kind of re-focus on whatever appears in front of his eyes. Down the street ten paces or so and again there is the eye contact with the cop on the corner and the same 'fascinated' or intoxicated focus.

This is a very interesting video Ed and one I obviously haven't seen. Thanks!

Maybe it's the power of suggestion from the other thread discussing Truly's dismassal of someone as "slightly retarded", but I'm associating this guy with that in light of the fact that he was marched over to the TSBD before going to the Sherif's office. I need to try and find more info on this Florer guy, if we know that is indeed his name.

I researched Lawrence Huber Florer several years ago, and had James Richards post my findings for me at EF.  I didn't know how to upload to the EF the Highland Park High School photo of him that the high school's librarian kindly scanned for me out of the yearbook and sent to me as an e-mail attachment.  Going from memory here, but I think I found out (before I called the high school) that his family lived only about a mile from Highland Park H.S. and that's why I called their library in the first place because HPHS was the closest high school from where the Florer family was living and I figured that that was the highschool he had gone to, and I was right.  I also found out that "Huber" was his mother's or his grandmother's maiden name, if I remember correctly.  I'll see if I can find his highschool photo on the Internet somewhere (it was automatically deleted by EF after a certain amount of time, as were a lot of photos by other EF members) and try to post it somewhere or at least direct you towards it.

--Tommy

Edit:  Can't find his high school photo right now, but his full name and address are listed on this 1978 document:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Drug%20Enforcement%20Administration/Item%2016.pdf

Here's the thread that James Richards started for me at the EF in 2007 regarding Larry Florer.  As you can see, the photo of Florer he uploaded for me has since disappeared.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9129&hl=%2Bflorer+%2Bhighland

--Tommy

From 1958 Highland Park High School, Dallas, TX Yearbook.