REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

I didn't see Larry in the 1957 Jesuit High School Dallas, TX Yearbook as referenced in the previous post, but here he is in the 1956 book:

Nice.  I hadn't seen that one, Stan.

The one I had James post for me was when he was a couple of  years older and at HPHS.

Beowulf at August 25, 2015 at 4:24 PM

Could just be a clerical mistake (DPD didn't take statement, Sheriff's office did and passed it on) but look where DPD's JFK Archive says Florer used telephone: "23. Voluntary Statement, by Larry Florer. Statement regarding use of a telephone inside the Texas School Book Depository, (Photocopy), 11/22/63. 00001286 1 page 05 02 023 1286-001.gif" Ditto Jim Braden: "11. Voluntary Statement, by Jim Braden. Statement regarding use of a telephone inside the Texas School Book Depository after the assassination, (Photocopy), 11/22/63. 00001272 1 page 05 02 011 1272-001.gif 1271-002.gif" http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

I can see that, as they were written at the same time by the same archivist/clerical worker.

They both did attempt to use a phone.
Neither succeeded in their attempts, or so they state.

Where is the complaintants statements, names etc? How do we know what happened exactly?
Usually you take a statement so you can know what to charge the person with.

Here we have the defendants telling the police 'hey nothing happened' and they let them both go. 

My favorite Florer pic, as a "President"

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dallasmorningnews/obituary.aspx?pid=175494019

Neil Florer (1936 - 2015)

Obituary

Guest Book

"Neil was such a special person. Always enjoyed laughing..."

- C Kay

View Sign

FLORER, Neil Neil Florer, 79, of Midland, passed away on August 10, 2015. A rosary will be held at 7:00 pm, Thursday, August 13, 2015 at Nalley-Pickle & Welch Chapel. A memorial service will be held at 11:00 am, Friday, August 14, 2015 at St. Ann's Catholic Church. Neil was born February 29, 1936 in Dallas, Texas. After graduating from Jesuit High School, he attended the University of Texas in Austin. He graduated from North Texas State University in 1958 with a BBA in Management. Neil served two years in the U.S. Army, then returned to North Texas State University and received a Master of Business Administration in Business Management in 1961. Neil began work for the Ford Division of Ford Motor Company in 1962 as a sales management trainee in the Dallas District. During his time with Ford Division, he held several management positions. In 1965, Neil was honored by Ford Motor Company with the Henry Ford Citizen of the Year award. In 1972, he received the Ford Division Achievement Award for outstanding service to both the company and the community. Neil and his late wife, Janet, were married in Dallas in 1965. They later moved to Midland where they raised their 5 children. He was Scoutmaster of Troop 81, Highland Park Methodist Church from 1962-1965. Neil purchased an interest in Rogers Ford Sales Inc. in February of 1977 and became Vice President and General Manager at that time. He retired in 2005. Since coming to Midland, Neil has held many business and civic positions, including: Religious Education Board at St. Ann's Church; Chairman of St. Ann's Fair in 1982; Troop Committee for Boy Scouts of America at First United Methodist Church (Troop 152 Midland); Assistant Scoutmaster, Scoutmaster, and Troop Committee Chairman at St. Ann's Catholic Church (Troop 84 Midland) from 1987-1995; Ford National Dealer Council; President of Boy Scouts of America Buffalo Trail Council from 1993-1994; Director of Midland American Bank from 1984-1999; Vice President of Endowment for Buffalo Trail Council Boy Scouts of America from 2000-2010; President of Midland College Board of Directors from 2004-2006; Midland College Board of Trustees from 2000-2015; Exchange Club of Midland; Board of Directors of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association from 1997-2002; Executive Board of Directors Buffalo Trail Council from 1992-2015; Board of Directors for Manor Park from 2005-2015; and the Permian Basin Diabetes Council. He was honored with a Lifetime Achievement Award by the Buffalo Trail Council, Boy Scouts of America in July, 2015. Neil is survived by his children, Timothy Florer, wife Sharrianna and granddaughter Robin, all of Austin; Thomas Florer of San Antonio; Dr. Christine Florer of Austin; Robert Florer, wife Mary and grandsons Zachery, Kyle, and Reed, all of Bridge City, Texas; and Jesse Smelser of Dallas; brothers, Lawrence Florer and Patrick Florer of Dallas; numerous nieces and nephews; and the family dog, Choco. He is preceded in death by his wife Janet and his parents, Mr. & Mrs. Cornelius "Bud" Florer.

New addy =

Lawrence H Florer

7005 Chevy Chase Ave

Dallas, TX 75225

(214) 739-xxxx  ( I did not post full number )


old addy =

FLORER, LAWRENCE HUBER

07-25-40

3640 Bryn Mawr Drive

Dallas, Texas 75225

(1-214-363-7349)

Thank you Tommy for the info and the link to the EF thread. All the other photos and info are also very interesting. 

He had an MBA so clearly not mentally impaired or challenged in a permanent way, he was apparently drunk. That was observed in another narrative to a video I saw, so that confirmed it for me. Sorry I don't have where I saw it, but he's clearly drunk when arrested. There is something a little wierd about that fact because he stated he had lunch with a Richard Bartholomew at a bar-b-que place in town, then walked to the plaza via the blocks north of Elm, came to stand on the NW corner Houston and Elm, watched the aftermath, asked for a phone, went to third floor, got booted out, left and got arrested. 

If he drank at lunch, he had several blocks of excercise to sober up, the adrenaline shock of a shooting to clear up his blood further, plus added time walking around looking for a phone. He seems freshly inebriated in the video (not sure I know what "freshly inebriated" actually looks like, but he seems extroverted like right after having drinks) or if not he must have been plastered when he left from lunch (but then I would expect someone more introverted by then). So was he really drunk or had he taken drink from a bottle he carried just prior to being arrested? Perhaps it might be an effective self extraction technique to render oneself inebriated by taking a strong dose of booze immediately after having done something, then simply get oneself picked up and taken in while otherwise stumbling away unoticed. On the other hand, perhaps he just liked to drink, or perhaps he was feigning it (good actor though). It's long speculation but there's something about the fact of being drunk at that moment in his story that doesn't seem to make total sense, at least to me. Later video and pictures of him in the police station show no signs of his being drunk that I can see, but who knows?

In reading his obituary, his life and times in Dallas show him to be a fine and upstanding member of his community, so I'm writing in pure hypothetical ideas here. 

Beowulf at August 26, 2015 at 1:21 PM

It looks like he drank his lunch. Larry seems to still be alive and appears to be guilty of nothing more than public intoxication.

I see I mistakenly referrenced his brother's obituary as his own. Sorry about that. I don't know that he was charged with anything at all that day. Certainly he was cleared of anything after being arrested and it was just an incident unrelated to the assassination.

Maybe he was suffering from the hypnotic effects of being a Manchurian Candidate 
Maybe he was narcotic influenced?
Sure was a lot of drunks around the plaza... Florer, Secret Service were still a bit tipsy, John Hurt, several from radio logs,
"605= This call on Crockett's going to be a drunk... "

"261= I have a white male that fits that description in size. He's drunk down at the end of the north end of Laws Street. You want to have someone check him?"

"243 (Patrolman B.L. Apple)= I am down here with this 3-wheeler at the dead end. He has a loud colored jacket on.
He is pretty drunk. Do you want me to take him up there or what do you want me to do with him?"


To be fair It was Friday and it was 5 o'clock somewhere

Stan Dane at August 26, 2015 at 12:36 AM

I didn't see Larry in the 1957 Jesuit High School Dallas, TX Yearbook as referenced in the previous post, but here he is in the 1956 book:

 

 

I just noticed that not only did they make a mistake with Larry's first name, but they also misidentified him as the guy in the middle.  I'm 98% sure that glasses-wearing Florer is the guy on the right.  I might be wrong...

Middle man? 
Yep he is in the middle, man.
Larrt did not wear glasses till later on.  (t and y are next to each other on a typewriter)
That Leon though, he is a royal Flusche.

"In regard to all this, I don't consider myself an important person, especially when you're doing your job! I don't understand people's reasoning on that. We do it because we're a paid officer and it was involved in our work. Nor was I badgered by the Warren Commission. They asked me the questions and I answered them, and if they didn't understand, they'd ask again. And we went through it until we cleared up whatever was misunderstood." – Marrion Baker, No More Silence by Larry A. Sneed.

Curious thing to say "Nor was I badgered by the Warren Commission." Why say that in the first place? Why talk about the questioning and if they didn't understand they'd ask again? And clearing up misunderstandings. What was there to misunderstand? He clearly told them what he saw and what he did - didn't he?

Unless, of course, Baker started out with what he saw and did, and then got "leaned on" to adapt what he originally saw to conform to the evolving First Floor - Third/Fourth Floor - Second Floor (sitting at table - leaning on counter - standing at the coke machine) encounter story.

For a country boy trying to keep all that straight, I reckon there just might be a passel of misunderstandings. So you just go off-record enought times till you get things cleared up. Practice makes perfect.

Drinking a Coke, Not drinking a Coke
Walking away, walking towards then away, back to walking away
Frisking, not frisking
At a water cooler, at a soda machine
tan jacket or a second later seen wearing only white tshirt.

I'll stop now...don't want to badger the point

Florer inside the dpd

http://www.wfaa.com/videos/news/features/2014/08/19/14131876/

At 23:13

Florer arrest footage

http://www.wfaa.com/videos/news/features/2014/08/19/14131882/

At 02:43

Jerry Rose of 3rd decade magazine writes in 1984 about his doubts about the Baker encounter.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Rose%20Jerry/Item%2010.pdf

I quote from page 4:

I start with the more familiar of these changes of testimony, the

statements of Patrolman Marion L. Baker. Baker was, of course, that

motorcyclist in the motorcade who rushed into the TSBD after the shots with the

intention of going to the roof, only to catch a "glimpse" of Oswald in or about

to enter the second floor lunch room. The ensuing encounter in which Baker

accosted Oswald and the TSBD superintendent, Roy Truly, vouched for him as an

employee is one of the dramatic episodes in popular assassination lore.

Useful as this encounter may have been both to assassination movie-makers

and to investigators eager to "prove" Oswald was in the TSBD after the

shooting, it may never have occurred. In an affidavit dated November 22, Baker

said he encountered the man whom he saw under arrest at headquarters later that

day "wallIng away from the stairway" on the third or fourth floor of the

building. Detective Marvin Johnson verifies that Baker said on that day that

he saw Oswald on "about the fourth floor"4 and, as late as December 23,

Homicide Captain Will Fritz's summary of assassination "evidence" in the DPD's

possession refersto an Oswald/Baker encounter "on 3rd or 4th floor on the

stairway." Roy Truly, on the other hand, reported on November 23 the version

of the encounter that was ultimately to prevail: that it occurred in the second

floor lunch room.

By December 2 it must have occurred to investigators that they had a

problem of"uncoordinated" testimony between two supposed "witnesses" to the

same event. Something had to change. In retrospect, investigators may have

wished that they had "coordinated" Truly and Baker by having Truly adopt

Baker's story, since Baker's version would have reduced considerably the timing

problem of Oswald getting to the second floor in time to meet Baker, as well as

the never-settled question of how Baker could have caught a "glimpse" of Oswald

in or near the lunch room as Baker dashed up the stairs. Because Baker's

employment with the DPD made him more vulnerable or for whatever reason, Baker

in fact became the apparent target of the "coordination." In another section

of Secret Service Report 491 not mentioned by Lambert, we find Baker giving

these agents a version of the encounter that corroborated that?of Truly; and

Baker of course duly so testified to the Warren Commission. The hand of

"coordinator" at work?

From the old forum, absolute classic!

Suggestion for the deniers, is to frame this masterpiece above their beds for all those lonely nights staring out in the darkness.......

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t25-if-marion-baker-had-stuck-to-his-original-statement?highlight=marrion+baker

If Marion Baker had stuck to his original statement...

Post by greg parker on Sun 04 Oct 2009, 3:53 pm

His Warren Commission testimony may have looked more like this...

BELIN: What happened after you realised the shot had come from the depository building?

BAKER: I jumped off my bike and ran into the building.

BELIN: What action did you take once inside?

BAKER: Well, there were some folk standing around inside, and I asked them where the stairs were. I had in mind to do a search of the top floor. A man then stepped forward identifying himself as the building

manager, or some such. Anyway, he took me to the back of the building and suggested we take the elevator.

BELIN: Given your certainty that at least one sniper was in the building, is it, let me put it this way, would it be standard procedure to have a civilian lead you on a search where there is potential for gun

play?

BAKER: No, sir. It was not standard procedure.

BELIN: Then why, Officer Baker, did you do so on this occasion?

BAKER: Sir, I was unprepared for such a question. Can we go off the record?

BELIN: No. I'd like the answer to be on the record. I think that's important.

BAKER: I was unfamiliar with the layout of the building. Everything was happening so quickly, I didn't stop to think of the danger I might be placing the civilian in. In other words, he offered to show me,

and I accepted.

BELIN: I think anyone could understand under the circumstances. Please continue. You went to take the elevator up with the building manager. What happened after that?

BAKER: Well, the elevator was hung a few floors up, so we ended up taking the stairs, after all.

BELIN: Did you make it to the top right away?

BAKER: Not right away, no. When I got to the third or fourth floor, I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to him, and he turned and came back toward me. At that point, the manager informed me that the person worked in the building, so I let him go and continued on to the

top floor.

BELIN: Did it not occur to you that an employee might have been the very sniper you were searching for?

BAKER: No, sir. At least not after the manager vouched for him. Or at least that's how I interpreted what he said. Like he was vouching for him.

BELIN: I see. Did you later recognise anyone as being the man you encountered?

BAKER: No, sir.

BELIN: We have a statement from Marvin Johnson, the officer who took your affidavit. Officer Johnson said in that statement, and I quote: "Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the

man he had seen on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository." Is that true, Officer

Baker? Did you identify Oswald as the man you had seen?

BAKER: No, sir. Whilst it is true that Oswald was present at the time I made that affidavit with Officer Johnson, I described the person I had encountered as I remembered him - that was -- he was a

white man, approximately 30 years old, 5'9", weighed about 165, had dark hair, and was wearing a light brown jacket. If that person had been Oswald, I would have recognized Oswald and made sure I included

that identification of the suspect in my affidavit.

Jarman's HSCA testimony 

This page is very telling, as this shows that Baker did not go straight up, he was more interested in keeping people from going out so it seems.

And Shelly was helping watch the elevators and since he was out and about for a few mins it is safe to assume that they never went up there right away. That is besides D Gardner seeing Baker and Truly come up after V Adams and S Styles went down.

Uncle Harold keeps on giving

19 pages of Baker's WC testimony analysed by the man himself, not 100% correct still lots of valuable observations, simply beautiful!

I am not quoting read the whole thing for yourself.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Texas%20School%20Book%20Depository%20Search/Item%2006.pdf

Jarman playing it off on Lovelady "standing out on the steps" as to seeing Oswald leave is odd.
timing wise...

I know Ed, I had a closer look at this, and I am taking that bit w a grain of salt for now.

Meanwhile HB MacLain mentions pigeons coming up from behind the building

H.B. McLain: My thought was, when I heard the shot, and all them pigeons flew out from behind that building, I just said to myself, "Wow, somebody's shooting at the pigeons today." It didn't even dawn on me that they were shooting at him.

http://www.ctka.net/2009/mclain.html