REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

The link provided by John Mooney is remarkably clear. I continue to maintain the image shows PM with arms crossed and nothing in his hands. The 'radiator' part of the image remains fixed as his movement appears in the area of the right hand as it rests on the left elbow. It is very quick, like a reflex action. This makes me strongly suspect a distortion of the image through vibration of the camera, but if it is not that, then I see it as him flipping his hand quickly up, bending at the wrist.

If he is having an excited, under the breath kind of an exchange with BWF at this point in the drama just seconds after the shots, he could be resisting a full emotional display and holding his carriage steady, arms tightly crossed, but betraying his true emotions with the quick hand flip. "This wasn't supposed to HAPPEN -(hand flip)--, Wes!". Instead of a shrug or a waving of the arms, just the quick, backhanded "slap" to burn off intense frustration. Try it yourself.

Vanessa at July 27, 2015 at 9:11 PM

John Mooney at July 27, 2015 at 11:26 AM

This is probably old news?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhKsIVCd00

Stabilised Baker run plus zoom of PM appearing to be manipulating something.

These are great John - so clear.

Surely PM hand's are moving - looks like a rapid twirling movement to me.

Winding a camera or putting the lid back on his coke bottle??

Just to speculate for a moment.  Oswald goes to the TSBD steps to have his pathetic last lunch as a free man (cheese sandwich, apple and coke)  with a camera slung around his neck to take a photo of JFK.

Puts the lunch bag and coke down to take his photo and wind the camera afterwards.

In the confusion after the shots he forgets to take his discarded lunch with him. That's why it's left on the steps to be photographed shortly after.

I know I'm trying to have it both ways here. But otherwise why would he leave the lunch on the steps?

In the confusion after the shots he forgets to take his discarded lunch with him. That's why it's left on the steps to be photographed shortly after.

Are you saying that the remnants of LHO's lunch were photographed in the entrance area of the TSBD? First I've heard of that. There are photos showing what appears to be a soda bottle left there.

Bottle and lunch sack. Right click and open in new tab t see a larger version.

Oh and that;s George W. Bush on the left......:D

Barto at July 28, 2015 at 2:54 AM

Bottle and lunch sack. Right click and open in new tab t see a larger version.

Oh and that;s George W. Bush on the left......:D

Cheers Barto,

I recalled the bottle but not the lunch sack!?!?...interesting...Just wondering - could PM's hand movement be him rolling down the top of the lunch sack?

John Mooney at July 27, 2015 at 11:26 AM

This is probably old news?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhKsIVCd00

Stabilised Baker run plus zoom of PM appearing to be manipulating something.

On further viewing (Youtube will let you watch it slower 0.25..or 0.5... now).. I think the "manipulation" is film wobble as there are two people in front of him who get severe head wobble at the same time.

I can't take any credit for this film I just spotted it yesterday when looking for Darnell in a Youtube search. It was uploaded on Feb 2014 by blackdogman. It's a nice piece of work whoever did it.

Thanks Vanessa!
He was 'finished eating and drinking' comes to mind. 
Yes he, LHO, very well said he had his lunch out front.
So he ate, and was simply leaning back waiting for and then watching the parade.
fI you watch the womans head in front of PM it ripples and distorts, same is happening to the hand/s
That apparent motion is deceptive.
Could be he mearly wipes his nose, scratches chin, or covers mouth to cough. All are equally possible.
I know we want it to be an Camera but lets decifer that light disk Lee Farley has us looking at.
Being there is another light disk on the steps not associated with PM then we should be able to decide what one of them actually are. Compare the light disks. What is there, who is there, what is that disk. Then apply that to the PM's light disk.

We could even wildly speculate it was a mirror to signal someone on Houston, or across Elm (at the corner).
See we need a one generation earlier print or scan of the Darnell images and then examine what we observe.
Otherwise we are falling into Cinque territory and that was where Linda was going with this.

What PM is doing is always secondary to whom PM is.

I triangulated the sight line of those whom looked up at the TSBD,,,
The two individuals in the clip are looking not at the so called Snipers Nest but to the third or fourth floor and a window just West of the entrance.
Baker encounters a person on the stairs of the third or fourth floor.

I was looking at the link Greg provided in another thread about Sean's notes and I saw this.

It's Curry's early version of what happened.

seems to fit Darnell pretty well to me.

Sean's excellent posts.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=ebb355cb80d7c1def8b4c9ccf81fb7e0&showtopic=20354&page=41

John Mooney at July 28, 2015 at 7:51 AM

I was looking at the link Greg provided in another thread about Sean's notes and I saw this.

It's Curry's early version of what happened.

seems to fit Darnell pretty well to me.

 

Sean's excellent posts.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=ebb355cb80d7c1def8b4c9ccf81fb7e0&showtopic=20354&page=41

That sums it up pretty well now doesn't it!

Curry and gang had to change their tunes a bit...from LHO rushing out encountering Baker and being let go, to a SFLR encounter, with a third fourth floor encounter in between.  That's a lot of encounters.


Who told Curry the "encounter" was at the entrance.
Baker was saying Third Floor Stairwell in his forms.

Thanks John!

Interesting stuff John and Ed, quite the dog's breakfast of sightings. The first two (1st floor Oswald and 3rd or 4th floor jacketed man) probably both came from Baker to Curry more or less as they really happened. Then the FBI, through Hoover's directive consistent with his Saturday phone call with LBJ, put the hammer down on Oswald. They told Curry that Oswald was his man and to get fucking busy. Curry could have told Baker something like --Look, we KNOW Oswald did it, if we don't put him in that lunch room, that cop killing son of a bitch commie assassin is going to get off. Do you want to be the one who gets him off or do you want to be the one who nails him? Think about it. You have to work here for quite a few more years yet. Keep it simple and do everyone a favor, turn two encounters with two different people into one encounter with the guy we both know killed two men. -- Quite a persuasive possibility.

J. Edgar Hoover told President Johnson about this encouter in the doorway, it is somewhere in the old ROKC forum, will try to find it.

(47) Lyndon B. Johnson: He would have been hit three times.

(48) J. Edgar Hoover: He would have been hit three times from the fifth floor of that building where we found the gun and the wrapping paper in which the gun was wrapped... and upon which we found the full fingerprints of this man Oswald. On that floor we found the three empty shells that had been fired and one shell that had not been fired... He then threw the gun aside and came down. At the entrance of the building, he was stopped by a police officer and some manager in

the building told the police officer, "Well, he's all right. He works there. You needn't hold him." They let him go... And then he got on a bus... He went out to his home and got ahold of a jacket.... and he came back downtown... and the police officer who was killed stopped him, not knowing'who he was and not knowing whether he was the man, but just on suspicion. And he fired, of course, and killed the police officer. Then he walked.

(49) Lyndon B. Johnson: You can prove that?

(50) J. Edgar Hoover: Oh, yes, oh, yes, we can prove that. Then he walked about another two blocks and went to the theater5 and the woman at the theater window selling the tickets,6 she was so suspicious the way he was acting, she said he was carrying a gun... He went into the theater and she notified the police and the police and our man down there went in there and located this particular man. They had quite a struggle with him. He fought like a regular lion and he had to be subdued, of course, and was then brought out and... taken to the police headquarters....

transcript from dictabelt telephone recordings of President LBJ and JEHoover on 29 November

Ok, Hoover gives that statement to LBJ, which is wrong in many respects not just the encounter but also the floor, the wrapping paper and the prints etc

Barto at July 30, 2015 at 12:04 PM

Ok, Hoover gives that statement to LBJ, which is wrong in many respects not just the encounter but also the floor, the wrapping paper and the prints etc

Hoover's the big picture guy for LBJ. Neither of them is obsessed with details beyond the need for proof. The big picture is they are hanging it on Oswald. The little pictures are the worker bees working very hard on the "proof", no matter really what it actually turns out to be or if it turns out to be different tomorrow than what it "is" today. They have their directive; Oswald did it alone.

I agree with that assessment, but at the same time you cannot pick one item out and say well that's what he said, while at the same time he is bolloxing it up all over....

Hi Barto. Perhaps I've conflated the focuses of the two levels of operation. At the executive level the details of the details don't matter in a conversation between JEH and LBJ. So long as the arrows all are pointing in the direction of hanging it on Oswald, they are happy. The arrows all were, technically correct or not, pointing in that direction as far as they were concerned.

On the ground on the other hand, the details of the details are indeed critical regardless of what JEH had said to LBJ. Details were the core competency of the FBI in preparing evidence, both in doing their own work and in delegating aspects of it to the DPD. If Hoover is not kept up to the minute with how things are developing on the ground, it doesn't matter to him on some days so long as he knows the LN directive is being followed. In fact, in this case he probably preferred to have some degree of separation as there was some ugly sausage being made and he didn't need any of it splattering on him and leaving a stain. His people got that and gave him what he wanted in the end even as it meant aspects had to evolve over time. JEH never needed to go back and correct his misstatements with LBJ. Everybody involved in the activity was happy with the outcome. (Except Hoover who did not like the way MC was jammed into then yanked out of it, but he survived)

So I don't give Hoover's statements a high degree of credibility regarding the LN details when he talks about them with LBJ, except as they may reflect the overall LN trajectory that he (they) was (were) pursuing. He displayed the same mistake riddled pattern earlier on Saturday the 23rd talking to LBJ. Of course the details he really was on top of were the Mexico City tapes and what they showed. These were an obstacle to the LN trajectory so he knew that particular info needed to be conveyed correctly by him as he talked to LBJ, so he was up to the second with that information. Later he had to double back on the tapes even existing, but he was right when it was critical that he be right, and wrong when it was ok if he was technically wrong, which he was on many counts.

No worries Jake, things do get scattered about a tad. 

Thanks for the info m8

From Baker's run to Baker's car journey 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2PL_sKpNO4 at 10:39, a well rehearsed interview, he does say he meets Truly inside.

here's a cool thread started by Sean Murphy in 2012

Was Marrion Baker the True Source of Inspector Sawyer's Suspect Description?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19782

I had not seen this thread before.

Although Lee's posts have been deleted luckily there are still some present in quotes/replies of others.

Jake at July 30, 2015 at 6:55 AM

Interesting stuff John and Ed, quite the dog's breakfast of sightings. The first two (1st floor Oswald and 3rd or 4th floor jacketed man) probably both came from Baker to Curry more or less as they really happened. Then the FBI, through Hoover's directive consistent with his Saturday phone call with LBJ, put the hammer down on Oswald. They told Curry that Oswald was his man and to get fucking busy. Curry could have told Baker something like --Look, we KNOW Oswald did it, if we don't put him in that lunch room, that cop killing son of a bitch commie assassin is going to get off. Do you want to be the one who gets him off or do you want to be the one who nails him? Think about it. You have to work here for quite a few more years yet. Keep it simple and do everyone a favor, turn two encounters with two different people into one encounter with the guy we both know killed two men. -- Quite a persuasive possibility.

Denham statement:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=629&search=denham

Ye old thread:
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t409-suspect-arrested-on-the-3rd-floor

Sean,

Want to read something interesting?

On June 15, 1978, William Ira Trantham from the Dallas County Sheriff's Office was interviewed by Jack Moriarty of the HSCA. The interview as follows:

Name: Ira Trantham

Date: 6/15/78

Time: 1400

Address: 10119 Newcomb Street, Dallas, Texas

INTERVIEW: Watched the motorcade pass Main and Harwood from the press room of Dallas Police Department Headquarters. Then checked out a cruiser and headed in the opposite direction not having an assignment germane to the Presidential visit.

Had not driven more than a few blocks when the police department radio blared the shooting report at Dealey Plaza. Reversing his direction he responded to that area parking in the freight yard near the rear of the TSBD. Observing uniformed men in the rear with shotguns, then seeing Inspector Sawyer at the front door, he reported for instructions. Sawyer advised they were still not certain where the gunfire came from, but the best guess at that time was the TSBD.

By this time they were joined by Jerry Hill and he and Hill went inside. Hill continued upstairs and an officer W. H. Desham (#7140 DPD) approached him with a prisoner. Advised this subject had been observed "acting suspiciously" on the third floor without a reasonable explanation for being there.

N.B. The name Desham above should read Denham.

and



Arrest of Florer, watch close lots going on in this clip!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWl4dFch6uk

Was Florer pointed out by a colored porter? Or just a guy on the third floor? Could this be the guy, he seems to be interracting and saying something to him.




Florer was pointed out by a man on the third floor, whom told him he could not use the phone.
And doesn't everyone asking to use a phone need questioned by police?
Seems this accuser was not the colored porter whom ran the elevator.

William Sharper would pick up the slack for Eddie Piper and say that Jim Braden was the one whom rode up with him in the Daltex elevator.
Jim Braden was supposed to be in the Daltex Bldg and not taking a ride with Eddie Piper.
Sharpers statement:
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10786#relPageId=21&tab=page

Sharper was not running the elevator during the assassination, only pre and post assassination did he run the lift. He was out watching the parade and possibly while a assassin was using the elevator.
And of course Braden/Florer would skip on using the TSBD but instead make their way to the D-T bldg to use a phone on the third floor of that bldg, ... ahhh yeah of course they did.

Now if there was a pay phone on the third floor as William Sharper said then anyone being suspicious of someone asking to use that phone is suspect in my book.
Plus even if the pay phone was busy why ask to use the receptionists phone? Why not wait for the pay phone? Why not wait BY the pay phone.

Was there even a pay phone on the 3rd floor or is Sharper not that sharp? 

Did Baker ever specify the man he saw had no hat or am I thinking of something else.

Ed, More scraps for the dog's breakfast. The dog is getting very excited. 

Intially inclined to say this was a TSBD event that was spun off by the spin team into the DalTex building to take it out of the TSBD equation (fallout from the pigeon inspired and otherwise unplanned Cook's tour of the TSBD that Baker decided to take and that required cleansing).

However, the video documents a perp walk that starts out in front of DalTex on Elm, goes half the block west to Houston, turns south, and ends at the Sherrifs' on Houston. I hope I have that right. It's a little confusing because there is a shot spliced in that is from the west side of Houston on Elm looking back up toward DalTex with TSBD on the left. That shot doesn't really show anything relating to the perp walk that I can make out. That had me thrown off for a while. So anyway, that would make it appear the story would have needed to migrate both in words and pictures, which isn't possible so it makes me wonder, did the story (in words) migrate from DalTex to TSBD instead?

Maybe the perp walk involved stopping off in front of the TSBD to check in to see if this guy was of interest to what was happening over there and to give witness to other officers that he was taking someone in (do they do that? They probably should). Maybe this was after Sawyer came back down to street level (or maybe Denham actually brought the guy up into the TSBD?); that Sawyer thought Denham was referring to 3rd story TSBD when it was DalTex.

That leaves the FBI statement, all of which statements are suspect in light of the "Oswald is your man, Oswald is your only man" directive from JEH. Maybe there was a hot lead in the DalTex building that the film actually documents, but had to be suppressed. Only a talk with the "Who is this?" guy and the elevator operator would clarify it.

As far as the 3rd or 4th floor guy Baker saw, it could be someone else.

Time to feed Fido again.