REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Ed Ledoux at October 9, 2015 at 4:35 AM

Jarman playing it off on Lovelady "standing out on the steps" as to seeing Oswald leave is odd.
timing wise...

Bear in mind that Jarman originally claimed to have watched the motorcade outside the TSBD.

Only later did he teleport up to the fifth floor.

Lee Farley at October 13, 2015 at 7:06 AM

Ed Ledoux at October 9, 2015 at 4:35 AM

Jarman playing it off on Lovelady "standing out on the steps" as to seeing Oswald leave is odd.
timing wise...

Bear in mind that Jarman originally claimed to have watched the motorcade outside the TSBD.

Only later did he teleport up to the fifth floor.

Well said Lee!

His placing BRW outside too is interesting.

They were outside at first and then went upstairs to get a better view, as the story goes

Haha Thx Bart,
Sure and he was outside when he came to work but he went inside at that time too.
I doubt what the DPD wanted was his pre-pre-asassination location but where he was and what he witnessed at the time of the assassination.
He is clearly painting a false picture and avoiding saying he was on the fifth floor and what he knows to be the truth about no shots coming from inside the building.

This was taken not on November 22nd but on the 23rd after Oswald was arrested and charged.

No one wants to be associated with that area up on Sixth floor, or Oswald by then, some even going so far as to fudge a legal statement.

The clincher that he is saying it was out on the street is the very last sentence.
"To my knoweldge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."
If you and two others are the only ones on the fifth floor how is it that he would be confused as to whether or not Oswald was watching with them?
  James Earl Jarman, in trying to distance himself from both the sixth floor and Oswald, was implying he was outside watching from the street with a large group.

Also note that he has Oswald going upstairs between 11:30 and noon to get "some boxes". The 5th and 6th floors were seldom needed to fill orders. They were used to store excess stock. 

He claims he only had one conversation with Oswald which was just after 9 am.  If so, how did he know what Oswald was going upstairs for more than 2 hours later? The only other way he could know is if someone told him, or he saw Oswald come back down with said boxes.

But seeing Oswald going up between 11:30 and noon - for boxes or any other purpose - is completely absent from his Warren Commission testimony. 

And one conversation becomes two in his testimony. His affidavit mentions seeing Oswald filling orders sometime after 8. In his testimony, he claims he checked and needed to get Oswald to correct that order. 

And the conversation between 9:30 and 10 doesn't ring true to me either since it is supposed to be about why the crowd was gathering outside. Really? Was there a crowd out there that early?

Great points Greg!

If you swap the box retrival trime for the crowd gathering time it actually makes some sense.

Question how many steps from first floor to second floor via back stairway?

How many vertical inches?

How do you know?

Thx~Ed

Thanks to Bart,

Major Starvis Ellis, who rode in the front of the motorcade relayed his talks after the assassination with and he said

This officer (as told by ELLIS) stated he was directly under the building when the shots. were fired. They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs. The building was the Book Depository. Upon going up the stairs, he and the supervisor encountered someone on either the third or fourth floor. This person was drinking water from the water cooler — he did not stop because the supervisor advised the officer that the man was en employee. MAJOR ELLIS stated this officer later identified the man by the water cooler as LEE HARVEY OSWALD!

They blocked the main entrance, and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs.

How long did it take Baker & Truly to "block the main entrance"?

How long for supervisor, (Truly?), to arrive?

If the main entrance was blocked, would that not mean Truly was already inside? Or how did he overcome the blockage?

Unless the "blockage" was Marion Baker himself at the main entrance?

If its just Baker and Truly, whom is the "They" if its just Baker waiting for Truly to arrive?

Perhaps Oswald was asked to help block the front and is the "They"...that or Baker is a party of two unto himself.

Cheers~Ed

Ed Ledoux at January 28, 2016 at 6:07 AM

 

 

Thanks to Bart,

 

 

 

 

Major Starvis Ellis, who rode in the front of the motorcade relayed his talks after the assassination with and he said

This officer (as told by ELLIS) stated he was directly under the building when the shots. were fired. They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs. The building was the Book Depository. Upon going up the stairs, he and the supervisor encountered someone on either the third or fourth floor. This person was drinking water from the water cooler — he did not stop because the supervisor advised the officer that the man was en employee. MAJOR ELLIS stated this officer later identified the man by the water cooler as LEE HARVEY OSWALD!

They blocked the main entrance, and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs.

How long did it take Baker & Truly to "block the main entrance"?

How long for supervisor, (Truly?), to arrive?

 

If the main entrance was blocked, would that not mean Truly was already inside? Or how did he overcome the blockage?

Unless the "blockage" was Marion Baker himself at the main entrance?

 

If its just Baker and Truly, whom is the "They" if its just Baker waiting for Truly to arrive?

Perhaps Oswald was asked to help block the front and is the "They"...that or Baker is a party of two unto himself.

 

Cheers~Ed

Heh, I've sometimes wondered if Oswald was the one who showed Baker the way up the stairs (perhaps when Truly came in and heard Baker ask for directions to the roof, he volunteered Lee to show him the way). Certainly a young Marine charging up the stairs with a cop towards a sniper's nest is more plausible than an old man like Truly doing so. Of course, that scenario does create a slight problem with the Oswald in the 6th floor window theory. 

i don't think that actually happened but I do wonder if Jarmin and Williams  (and perhaps Norman too) actually WERE downstairs-- in the vestibule presumably because you can't see them on the street.  They had to be moved because (1)  they saw a certain someone on the front step and (2) there were witnesses who placed black me on the 5th floor (a dark skin Cuban would look black to anyone who saw them from the street).  The clear pictures of them in the 5th floor windows may have been taken during one of the reeanctments.

Thanks to Ed for pointing them out!

Baker in 1949, 2nd row fourth from left.

Baker 1950

Greg at October 13, 2015 at 5:05 PM

Also note that he has Oswald going upstairs between 11:30 and noon to get "some boxes". The 5th and 6th floors were seldom needed to fill orders. They were used to store excess stock. 

He claims he only had one conversation with Oswald which was just after 9 am.  If so, how did he know what Oswald was going upstairs for more than 2 hours later? The only other way he could know is if someone told him, or he saw Oswald come back down with said boxes.

But seeing Oswald going up between 11:30 and noon - for boxes or any other purpose - is completely absent from his Warren Commission testimony. 

And one conversation becomes two in his testimony. His affidavit mentions seeing Oswald filling orders sometime after 8. In his testimony, he claims he checked and needed to get Oswald to correct that order. 

And the conversation between 9:30 and 10 doesn't ring true to me either since it is supposed to be about why the crowd was gathering outside. Really? Was there a crowd out there that early?

Jarman (and Norman) tried to hold onto the story that Williams went up with them to the 5th floor for many months. Williams initially tried this story too but abandoned it the day after the assassination (a Saturday). He likely had no way to inform them as a non-work day. Only Jarman had a home phone and Williams likely did not know their addresses. Williams was let off the hook when Day enquired about the chicken lunch on the Monday. He likely related that the lunch was found where it had been moved by police and discovered by Sudebaker after the rifle had been dusted. The lunch was originally in the SN and was thought to be the assassin's. Williams had good reason to try and distance himself from the SN and 12.30.....

The conversation between Jarman and Oswald makes sense only at the later time.....there was no crowd outside at the earlier time.

Ed Ledoux at November 23, 2015 at 1:57 AM

Question how many steps from first floor to second floor via back stairway?

How many vertical inches?

How do you know?

Thx~Ed

18 steps in total....split by a small right angled landing. From memory the step height was either 7 or 9 inches.

Baker's bit in The Men Who Killed Kennedy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIVvIGO883g&feature=youtu.be

That Baker was veering to the right was obvious in the Darnell film, but with Chris Davidson's GIF it clearly shows he is going past the steps, it would make no sense for him to go on the right side of the steps, as the left side was much more accessible and people were moving back into the TSBD whereas on the right they were all static and looking down Elm. I have revised my opinion on this, also since Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement which mentions a motorcycle police officer standing in front of the building. I suspect Baker was checking the fire escape first to see whether anyone was coming down from them, then again he could have just waited in front of the steps for a while as well until he had a chat with Truly.

Besides Hawkins' affidavit, Ellis' statement "They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs" makes some sense.

Add on that only Sanders saw Baker go up the stairs (not Molina and not Frazier). And we know how fishy Sanders' statements were.

And then there is Gary Savage's book first day evidence where Baker (named officer Y) states: "So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (TSBD). It took a while because of the crowd, they had started moving in every direction''

Baker did not storm into the building. 

More to come soon

Greg at October 13, 2015 at 5:05 PM

Also note that he has Oswald going upstairs between 11:30 and noon to get "some boxes". The 5th and 6th floors were seldom needed to fill orders. They were used to store excess stock. 

He claims he only had one conversation with Oswald which was just after 9 am.  If so, how did he know what Oswald was going upstairs for more than 2 hours later? The only other way he could know is if someone told him, or he saw Oswald come back down with said boxes.

But seeing Oswald going up between 11:30 and noon - for boxes or any other purpose - is completely absent from his Warren Commission testimony. 

And one conversation becomes two in his testimony. His affidavit mentions seeing Oswald filling orders sometime after 8. In his testimony, he claims he checked and needed to get Oswald to correct that order. 

And the conversation between 9:30 and 10 doesn't ring true to me either since it is supposed to be about why the crowd was gathering outside. Really? Was there a crowd out there that early?

Correct Greg....the conversation about the crowd gathering occurred later not that early. It may well be that Oswald had to go up at that time to correct the order.

Ed Ledoux at October 9, 2015 at 4:35 AM

Jarman playing it off on Lovelady "standing out on the steps" as to seeing Oswald leave is odd.
timing wise...

Just went throigh this thread and realised that.

Lovelady stood on the steps afterwards.

In Hughes and in Martin.