REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

There were five of us in the car. When we heard the first shot, the President had already turned the corner. We had not made the corner yet. Then we heard two more shots.

As far as I know, three shots were all I heard. I just instinctively looked that way. First, somebody joked about it being a firecracker.

Then, since I was facing the building where the shots were coming from, I just glanced up and saw two colored men in a window straining to look at a window up above them.

As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn't see a man, I didn't even see if it had a scope on it.

It was the second floor down from the top of the building and it was the end window facing Elm Street, the corner window. The President's car was about halfway between Houston Street and the underpass. We were beginning to turn the corner. He [the gunman] had about President's car at a 45-degree angle from the building to the President’s car.

I looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the President's car and the car behind him carrying the vice president. Then I could see a colored family covering up their child on the grass. A policeman was down on his knee. I couldn't tell if he were hit. I thought the child was dead or something. Then the Negro parents picked up the boy and ran.

[Jackson's reference to the second floor from the top where he saw the rifle apparently refers to the 6th floor of the 7-story building [judging from photographs]. At the time, most accounts were referring to the fifth floor as where the rifle was found. AP , 3:40 p.m. CST. Dallas -- eyewitness account [Bob Jackson] of assassination by a Dallas Times Herald photographer riding in a car close behind the presidential car.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%2520Materials/Warren%2520Commission-Subject/Witnesses.doc&sa=U&ei=Pvc8VfLxBJHLaJrkgMgD&ved=0CA4QFjAEOAo&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNG6xzX23v0-lfdITWiRNDsA7lTXJg

7[1[64 Dallas - Mrs. Cabell [wife of former Dallas mayor Earle Cabell] ... earlier revealed that she saw the rifle of the assassin extending from a window of the Texas School Book Depository building.

She said she heard the first shot and then looked up, seeing the rifle immediately. The Cabells were in the fourth automobile behind the President's convertible.

"I never saw a person or even a person's hand on the rifle," Mrs. Cabell said. AP, 618 p.m. CST

7[2[64 Dallas - ... Mrs. Cabell said the Warren Commission knew about this, but had not requested that she give a statement to its investigators. [Story on Wade, who said "about a dozen" witnesses reported having seen a rifle in the window, and speculated this was why the Commission had not questioned Mrs. Cabell.] AP, 1031 p.m. pcs

7[2[64 Dallas - "I don't think the Warren Commission has any doubts about the place where the shots came from," Wade said. "We had a number of people - about a dozen, I recall - who said they saw the gun in the window of the Depository building.

"Some of them said they could see a man holding the gun. I know officers showed them pictures to determine whether they could identify Oswald." AP, 1031 p.m. CST

James Worrell is the only one I could find who says he saw a little muzzle flash and some smoke.

"

Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?

Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Brian Castle at October 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM

James Worrell is the only one I could find who says he saw a little muzzle flash and some smoke.

"

Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?

Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Wow, he saw a little flame and smoke, did he?

in broad daylight this man claims to have seen a little flame......

and and this is believed?

wow!

6 days after the Big Event, James  'Jimmy' Darnell of WBAP was interviewed.

In this FBI report by SA Gemberling there is absolutely no mention of any sighting of anything or anyone in the windows of the  TSBD

So the guy who sits next t Couch and Bob Jackson makes no mention of Jackson exclaiming about the rifle, shoots almost the same footage as Couch, getting out of the car and running down Elm, whereas the barrel was just withdrawn inside the building, sure, this all makes perfect sense.

Just throwing this out there.

Ed has made a case for no shots fired in at the TSBD, a persuasive argument IMO.

i maybe dead wrong here, but if Baker is the first cop to leap off his motor bike and run to the front steps of the TSBD enter that building with gun drawn, and as far as I can tell he is the only law enforcement officer to make such a move at that moment, it is safe to assume he wasn't entering seeking a better vantage point to view the event from. What troubles me a little is if I'm reading this correct is Baker is virtually the only officer who enters the building almost immediately after the head shot. Am I wrong to feel a little suspicious of Marion Baker, I know many here offer him a pass, somethings gnawing away at me here.

if we are correct for no shots fired then of course Bakers run has to be looked at closely.

Firecracker ... The first shot sounded like a firecracker, many witnesses reported. What if, as this promising thread suggests, there were no shooters at all in TSBD, only a remote controlled firing mechanisms which has just produced a sound like a firecracker. It did not need to be on the 6th floor even. One such explosion would suffice. No shooters - no escapes necessary, only the patsy honed by few confidents. No risk at all, just focus on our patsy, please. This one loud sound could be the one which Jack Dougherty heard and which caused him run down the stairs. Too weird?

If three shots were supposed to be fired in a closed space (except of few half-open windows), the smell of gunpowder was supposed to be notified, especially by those getting to the 6th floor first. I do not remember anyone reporting the smell of gunpowder in TSBD, while several people reported such smell in open plane (e.g., sen. Yarborough). Why no one wondered about no smell of gunpowder?

Baker was drawn to the building because of the pigeons he saw fly off due to the noise of the gunshots. He thought the shooter may have been on the roof. He had no idea the shooter was at any windows on any of the floors.

Some people have claimed that IF the shot had been fired from the sixth floor, it would not have disturbed the pigeons on the roof.

No witnesses, not even Baker. Therefore, no one was shooting from the building.

It isn't any of that that really surpsies me, what surprises me is that while Baker is convinced that the shooter is in the TSBD he makes no report to anyone else "hey get in here, back me up" nope they go thru the railroad yard for 15 minutes.........perhaps I see to much in a rambo style search by him and Truly 50+ years after.

But tell me then there were no such procedures in place at all, that is the question to ask.

Why not call for backup, any backup

Barto, I think, and I can easily be mistaken as I read much less than you guys, that Baker decided to check the TSBD because he saw the pigeons flying away from the roof of TBD during shooting, and reckoned the shooting could have come from the roof of TSBD. Therefore, he was interested to get to the 7th floor and to the roof. They really got there with Truly, spent some five minutes checking, and descended without checking systematically each floor. From the perspective of his primary goal (checking the roof), the building was clear and he did not have any need to call for help. 

I think Ed & co may be after something very important. There may have been no real shooting from TSBD, perhaps only a masquarade to 1) divert the attention from other buildings (Daltex in the first place) to allow real assassins to escape, 2) to frame the patsy. 

The masquarade taking place between 12.00 and 12.30 may even have involved Lee Harvey Oswald who unknowingly helped to stage a scene or pose there. We know he was the PM, standing in the lobby around 12.30, eating his lunch and going outside to see the excitement. However, we do not know too much about his movements from 12.00 to 12.30. How long does it take to eat a sandwich and an apple. Yet, he had his lunch as late as 12.30. So, he was evidently not consuming his lunch before (12.30-12.29) as there would be no food left for 12.30. I think it was again Sean Murphy who pointed out that Oswald being PM does not guarantee his complete innocence. He is innocent from shooting the President. However, he might have been decieved to help to stage some scene on the 6th floor thinking he is a real subversive and that he helps a good cause, and realising, already as PM, that it all was not just staged, that it was for real.

Mick Purdy at October 2, 2015 at 3:22 AM

Brian Castle at October 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM

James Worrell is the only one I could find who says he saw a little muzzle flash and some smoke.

"

Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?

Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Wow, he saw a little flame and smoke, did he?

in broad daylight this man claims to have seen a little flame......

and and this is believed?

wow!

Who said anything about belief? lol

I only said it was the only "claim" I could find.

One person, that's all. That was my point.

And, to your point, yes that person could easily be mistaken. As you know the human mind can even "create" muzzle flashes when none are there.

However it is somewhat curious, this report. The man is stating "four shots" with what seems like a modicum of certainty. Anyway...

"Someone" was up there, right? Even if the whole thing was staged, there was still a person up there and some eyewitnesses say two people.

It smells to me like Baker realized he'd screwed up, that he probably let the shooter go (on Mr. Truly's word). So, he was looking at a situation where he might forever go down in the history books as the guy who let Kennedy's shooter go. His name would be mud, and his childrens' for generations. But then someone gave him a way out. Seems we know very little about either man's activities (Truly or Baker) in the days following the assassination.

Terry Martin at October 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM

Baker was drawn to the building because of the pigeons he saw fly off due to the noise of the gunshots. He thought the shooter may have been on the roof. He had no idea the shooter was at any windows on any of the floors.

Some people have claimed that IF the shot had been fired from the sixth floor, it would not have disturbed the pigeons on the roof.

No witnesses, not even Baker. Therefore, no one was shooting from the building.

I agree Terry, and as far as we can tell Baker calls for no back up, he wants to get this bad boy all on his lonesome. 

Pigeons on the roof , possible shooter on the roof top all his own story........am I right?

Barto at October 6, 2015 at 1:47 AM

It isn't any of that that really surpsies me, what surprises me is that while Baker is convinced that the shooter is in the TSBD he makes no report to anyone else "hey get in here, back me up" nope they go thru the railroad yard for 15 minutes.........perhaps I see to much in a rambo style search by him and Truly 50+ years after.

But tell me then there were no such procedures in place at all, that is the question to ask.

Why not call for backup, any backup

Absolutely correct Bart.

why have I become suspicious of Marion all of a sudden, my gut is telling me something here

Brian Castle at October 6, 2015 at 2:46 AM

Mick Purdy at October 2, 2015 at 3:22 AM

Brian Castle at October 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM

James Worrell is the only one I could find who says he saw a little muzzle flash and some smoke.

"

Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?

Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Wow, he saw a little flame and smoke, did he?

in broad daylight this man claims to have seen a little flame......

and and this is believed?

wow!

Who said anything about belief? lol

I only said it was the only "claim" I could find.

One person, that's all. That was my point.

And, to your point, yes that person could easily be mistaken. As you know the human mind can even "create" muzzle flashes when none are there.

However it is somewhat curious, this report. The man is stating "four shots" with what seems like a modicum of certainty. Anyway...

"Someone" was up there, right? Even if the whole thing was staged, there was still a person up there and some eyewitnesses say two people.

It smells to me like Baker realized he'd screwed up, that he probably let the shooter go (on Mr. Truly's word). So, he was looking at a situation where he might forever go down in the history books as the guy who let Kennedy's shooter go. His name would be mud, and his childrens' for generations. But then someone gave him a way out. Seems we know very little about either man's activities (Truly or Baker) in the days following the assassination.

Brian, you'll have to forgive my Aussie sense of humour.....my sarcasm.

it was not directed at you or your post.

just having a laugh at the WC impotence with regards to the ability to cross examine.

so pleas don't think I was having a crack, I most definitely was not

Andrej Stancak at October 6, 2015 at 2:24 AM

Barto, I think, and I can easily be mistaken as I read much less than you guys, that Baker decided to check the TSBD because he saw the pigeons flying away from the roof of TBD during shooting, and reckoned the shooting could have come from the roof of TSBD. Therefore, he was interested to get to the 7th floor and to the roof. They really got there with Truly, spent some five minutes checking, and descended without checking systematically each floor. From the perspective of his primary goal (checking the roof), the building was clear and he did not have any need to call for help. 

I think Ed & co may be after something very important. There may have been no real shooting from TSBD, perhaps only a masquarade to 1) divert the attention from other buildings (Daltex in the first place) to allow real assassins to escape, 2) to frame the patsy. 

The masquarade taking place between 12.00 and 12.30 may even have involved Lee Harvey Oswald who unknowingly helped to stage a scene or pose there. We know he was the PM, standing in the lobby around 12.30, eating his lunch and going outside to see the excitement. However, we do not know too much about his movements from 12.00 to 12.30. How long does it take to eat a sandwich and an apple. Yet, he had his lunch as late as 12.30. So, he was evidently not consuming his lunch before (12.30-12.29) as there would be no food left for 12.30. I think it was again Sean Murphy who pointed out that Oswald being PM does not guarantee his complete innocence. He is innocent from shooting the President. However, he might have been decieved to help to stage some scene on the 6th floor thinking he is a real subversive and that he helps a good cause, and realising, already as PM, that it all was not just staged, that it was for real.

 

Baker and Truly stayed in the lobby for ages. There are several pointers for that from Geneva Hine, Vicky Adams, Sandra Styles, Bill Shelly, James Jarman and most importantly Marrion Baker himself. Who bolloxed his testimony and his statements to such an extend that there is very serious doubt about his story. Plus the lack of backup call for how long exactly?

And the back had 4 exit points, according to Shelly anyone could have gotten out of there, but if Baker stayed down all that time then they could have secured both stairways and elevators untill the rest arrived, but no they go on a so called rambo mission......

Whether there is no shots, one shot or perhaps even two doesn't really matter, you will end up in bunched jacket land and so forth.

Again that detail is a massive diversion to which this whole forum can argue till, again, the cows come home.

Bottom line of investigation should be where the fuck was Lee Harvey Oswald when the big event took place, anything else is window dressing.

Mick Purdy at October 6, 2015 at 3:48 AM

Brian Castle at October 6, 2015 at 2:46 AM

Mick Purdy at October 2, 2015 at 3:22 AM

Brian Castle at October 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM

James Worrell is the only one I could find who says he saw a little muzzle flash and some smoke.

"

Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?

Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Wow, he saw a little flame and smoke, did he?

in broad daylight this man claims to have seen a little flame......

and and this is believed?

wow!

Who said anything about belief? lol

I only said it was the only "claim" I could find.

One person, that's all. That was my point.

And, to your point, yes that person could easily be mistaken. As you know the human mind can even "create" muzzle flashes when none are there.

However it is somewhat curious, this report. The man is stating "four shots" with what seems like a modicum of certainty. Anyway...

"Someone" was up there, right? Even if the whole thing was staged, there was still a person up there and some eyewitnesses say two people.

It smells to me like Baker realized he'd screwed up, that he probably let the shooter go (on Mr. Truly's word). So, he was looking at a situation where he might forever go down in the history books as the guy who let Kennedy's shooter go. His name would be mud, and his childrens' for generations. But then someone gave him a way out. Seems we know very little about either man's activities (Truly or Baker) in the days following the assassination.

Brian, you'll have to forgive my Aussie sense of humour.....my sarcasm.

it was not directed at you or your post.

just having a laugh at the WC impotence with regards to the ability to cross examine.

so pleas don't think I was having a crack, I most definitely was not

No worries, mate! Feel free to take a jab any time, I need the checks and balances. lol - I have the same issues with "belief" as everyone else, especially with this JFK case, which is one of the few where one actually has to consider the reality of planted witnesses.

Terry Martin at October 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM

Baker was drawn to the building because of the pigeons he saw fly off due to the noise of the gunshots. He thought the shooter may have been on the roof. He had no idea the shooter was at any windows on any of the floors.

Some people have claimed that IF the shot had been fired from the sixth floor, it would not have disturbed the pigeons on the roof.

No witnesses, not even Baker. Therefore, no one was shooting from the building.

Terry is right but if you look at the spread sheet I posted a witness said the pigeons were not on the roof but on the ground and flew up from behind the building (from Bakers view).

Earle Brown is one who saw the pigeons and smelled gunpowder,

6H234

22H600

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. BROWN. Three.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?

Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would you like me to tell you?

Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.

Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did because I saw them flying up - must have been 50, 75 of them.

Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?

Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the - between us and the, this over pass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so - at least it smelled like It to me.

Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?

Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that Texas ---

Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?

233

Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?

Mr. BROWN. I Just don't recall that; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?

Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that building because actually it seemed to come from there.

Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?

Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because they just seemed to all take off.

Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?

Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way between - no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. Yea.

Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.

 
Thus no shooting from the sixth floor caused a roof sitting pigeon to action, but shot/s near the 'river bottom' or triple underpass did, per Earle.
Thus ground level noise caused flock to flight.

Bob Jackson according to Richard E Sprague