REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

It is hard to fathom the hostility on this thread to the acoustics study and the view that shots were fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

First off there is no hostility, none from me, not ever, and none from the replies I've seen from anybody posting here. 

Like others here I don't want to engage in the dictabelt nonesense it's been done to death and is like arguing about blurry photos, and what you may or may not see.

Your opinion matters, and you are entitled to it. But fo me the Dictabelt thing is dead I'd rather concentrate on PM.

Redfern, I don't have the answers, and in truth neither do you. 

Lee Farley said it so well, the science in this case makes your head hurt and spin. 

All I'm saying is don't use the analysis of the dictabelt to show cause. 

Anyway enough of this PM is the main game to be sure.

"Anyway enough of this PM is the main game to be sure."

We'll have something out on PM in the not-to-distant future Mick. High octane, undiluted Sean Murphy. It's under review and it its latter stages now. This and other things in progress will hopefully get us closer to our goal.

Only at ROKC.

Stan Dane at August 14, 2015 at 4:16 PM

"Anyway enough of this PM is the main game to be sure."

We'll have something out on PM in the not-to-distant future Mick. High octane, undiluted Sean Murphy. It's under review and it its latter stages now. This and other things in progress will hopefully get us closer to our goal.

Only at ROKC.

 

Stan, I'm an understated sort of guy normally, but your comments do something to me that have me all warm and well sort of a little bit flustered.

Is that ok?

Mick, that's a relief, I thought it was just me. I guess it will be up to San whether it is "ok" or not, but you're not the only one.

Mick Purdy at August 14, 2015 at 7:17 PM

Stan Dane at August 14, 2015 at 4:16 PM

"Anyway enough of this PM is the main game to be sure."

We'll have something out on PM in the not-to-distant future Mick. High octane, undiluted Sean Murphy. It's under review and it its latter stages now. This and other things in progress will hopefully get us closer to our goal.

Only at ROKC.

 

Stan, I'm an understated sort of guy normally, but your comments do something to me that have me all warm and well sort of a little bit flustered.

Is that ok?

Mick/Jake, absent a crystal clear image of PM, a coherent and plausible reason is needed for why the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter evolved, from what is clearly a front door encounter. Stan has put Sean's work through a fitness program and the result is undeniable. It's so good that DiEugenio will ignore it!

Mick and Jake:

It's OK to feel…whatever. I feel that way too.

Sit tight…you two will be among the first to know certain things.

In the meantime, let's count our blessings. I mean, we could be holed up at The Foo right now – Lady Di's team – waiting for the next exciting post in "Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE?"

No Stan, you've got to stop. I mean I'm really feeling hot and sweaty.

Your posts are starting to impact on me, The anticipation is heart stopping.....no seriously it is!

Stan, thanks. That can't happen soon enough.

Jake at August 14, 2015 at 8:34 PM

Stan, thanks. That can't happen soon enough.

One of the best aspects of this is just how it all unfolded. It just seems that whenever help is needed, or someone comes up with a good idea, someone invariably puts their hand up. I've been around these forums for 15 years. It has happened on occasions, but even when it did, it was usally half-assed. Not here. I have seen first hand the depth of commitment, and even the odds are stacked against, no one has given up. 

In this instance, I hope they don't mind me saying, but Steely's idea was taken up by Stan, and from all reports, the final product will be pretty damn special.

Redfern, I don't give a fuck about dictabelts and acoustics and it has nothing to do with being hostile towards the idea. I, like others here, have also had a gut full of being dazzled with science by so called experts that cannot agree. I am tired of it but I can stll appreciate the role technology can play in solving this case. We've had the acoustics evidence since 1978 and we're still having the same arguments since 1978. Its a dead end as far as I am concerned.

Stan Dane at August 14, 2015 at 4:16 PM

"Anyway enough of this PM is the main game to be sure."

We'll have something out on PM in the not-to-distant future Mick. High octane, undiluted Sean Murphy. It's under review and it its latter stages now. This and other things in progress will hopefully get us closer to our goal.

Only at ROKC.

 

Paul Francisco Paso at August 15, 2015 at 12:30 AM

Redfern, I don't give a fuck about dictabelts and acoustics and it has nothing to do with being hostile towards the idea. I, like others here, have also had a gut full of being dazzled with science by so called experts that cannot agree. I am tired of it but I can stll appreciate the role technology can play in solving this case. We've had the acoustics evidence since 1978 and we're still having the same arguments since 1978. Its a dead end as far as I am concerned.

Paul, couldn't have said it better.

And I trust redfern sees no offence in that. But yes we're all tired of looking at the stuff which has haunted this case for near on 52 years.

The case seems littered with people whom have no desire for the case to be reopened or solved. The shameful lies and deceptions are all to obvious to those who do seek the truth.

Shameful researchers who peddle their lies, so that the status quo will remain for all eternity.

This JFK stuff is big business for many and I suspect they will do whatever it takes to keep it rolling along.

Greg at August 14, 2015 at 11:27 PM

Jake at August 14, 2015 at 8:34 PM

Stan, thanks. That can't happen soon enough.

One of the best aspects of this is just how it all unfolded. It just seems that whenever help is needed, or someone comes up with a good idea, someone invariably puts their hand up. I've been around these forums for 15 years. It has happened on occasions, but even when it did, it was usally half-assed. Not here. I have seen first hand the depth of commitment, and even the odds are stacked against, no one has given up. 

In this instance, I hope they don't mind me saying, but Steely's idea was taken up by Stan, and from all reports, the final product will be pretty damn special.

 

Just to clarify......The idea was Stan's. I made a suggestion to Stan as to how he might present his work, but all the credit for what's to follow should rightfully belong to Stan.

steely dan at August 15, 2015 at 10:14 AM

Greg at August 14, 2015 at 11:27 PM

Jake at August 14, 2015 at 8:34 PM

Stan, thanks. That can't happen soon enough.

One of the best aspects of this is just how it all unfolded. It just seems that whenever help is needed, or someone comes up with a good idea, someone invariably puts their hand up. I've been around these forums for 15 years. It has happened on occasions, but even when it did, it was usally half-assed. Not here. I have seen first hand the depth of commitment, and even the odds are stacked against, no one has given up. 

In this instance, I hope they don't mind me saying, but Steely's idea was taken up by Stan, and from all reports, the final product will be pretty damn special.

 

Just to clarify......The idea was Stan's. I made a suggestion to Stan as to how he might present his work, but all the credit for what's to follow should rightfully belong to Stan.

The excitement you guys are exhibiting is palpable. I know creative work needs time and space to get right, so we'll anxiously await. Stan is amazing in the work he does. True talent.

I mean it, this is really exciting.

Mick Purdy at August 15, 2015 at 9:32 AM

Paul Francisco Paso at August 15, 2015 at 12:30 AM

Redfern, I don't give a fuck about dictabelts and acoustics and it has nothing to do with being hostile towards the idea. I, like others here, have also had a gut full of being dazzled with science by so called experts that cannot agree. I am tired of it but I can stll appreciate the role technology can play in solving this case. We've had the acoustics evidence since 1978 and we're still having the same arguments since 1978. Its a dead end as far as I am concerned.

Paul, couldn't have said it better.

And I trust redfern sees no offence in that. But yes we're all tired of looking at the stuff which has haunted this case for near on 52 years.

The case seems littered with people whom have no desire for the case to be reopened or solved. The shameful lies and deceptions are all to obvious to those who do seek the truth.

Shameful researchers who peddle their lies, so that the status quo will remain for all eternity.

This JFK stuff is big business for many and I suspect they will do whatever it takes to keep it rolling along.

Paul Francisco Paso at August 15, 2015 at 12:30 AM

Redfern, I don't give a fuck about dictabelts and acoustics and it has nothing to do with being hostile towards the idea. I, like others here, have also had a gut full of being dazzled with science by so called experts that cannot agree. I am tired of it but I can stll appreciate the role technology can play in solving this case. We've had the acoustics evidence since 1978 and we're still having the same arguments since 1978. Its a dead end as far as I am concerned.

The crucial factor in the acoustics study is that the experts did agree. The real experts, that is. A second group was drafted in to verify the results obtained by the first and did essentially that.

What we witnessed afterwards were systematic attempts to trash the acoustics work. Various methods were used, such as the position of the motorcycle officer with the stuck mic not being compatible with the results - this was Dale Myers's line. The 'establishment', if that's what we might call it*, responded fairly quickly to the HSCA verdict with a paper claiming that the shots detected on the tape actually emerged a minute or so after the assassination. Don Thomas did a fine job in showing how this case was based on flawed assumptions concerning the nature of 'crosstalk'. The original teams have always defended their work on the basis that if the relevant segment of the tape did not record gunfire in Dealey Plaza and/or a motorcycle officer was not in the required position then there must have been a near-perfect replica in acoustic terms of Dealey Plaza and associated rifle shots within a minute's ride. Clearly, this was not a realistic possibility.

The LN advocates pounced on any critique of the initial work as evidence it had been 'debunked'. How they love using that word! They fully appreciated they were involved in a propaganda exercise and that 95% of those they were trying to convince would not have a clue about the science involved or would not waste any time investigating further. 

Yet there is surely a lesson to be learned. More than half a century after the assassination the mainstream media slavishly toes the LN line and is happy to see an alternative view dismissed as another silly 'conspiracy theory'. Even highbrow newspapers like the New York Times are reluctant to diverge from this position.

The Guardian newspaper carried an article this week in which a writer praised the William Manchester book. The online reply section was inundated with input which served only to demonstrate that the vast majority of people were very poorly informed and had swallowed the rubbish produced on US TV in the wake of the Oliver Stone film hook, line and sinker. The theory that a SS agent accidentally discharged his automatic rifle and inflicted the fatal shot was supported by many contributors. It should be emphasised that the Guardian is not a downmarket tabloid, but the premier left-leaning quality in the UK. (In fairness, a large number of contributors believed there was a conspiracy and a resultant cover-up, although in many instances the evidence cited represented the dodgiest claims by CTs - body alteration, film manipulation and so forth.)

It is against this dumbed-down wall of noise that PM has to succeed. Too many people have staked their reputations on the LN verdict for an alternative position to receive a fair hearing. It would be tremendous if there were to be the ultimate 'game changer' but this will entail a massive uphill struggle.

The very best of luck to those who try!

I still think it would be very useful to subject the later sections of the tape to forensic analysis. This could have a huge bearing on identifying whether any messages had been added or moved to a different time-frame or whether it is likely segments had been cut out altogether.

Finally, the argument that shots weren't fired from the 'sniper's nest window' and that - presumably - planted witnesses were at hand to create this impression adds an unnecessary layer of complexity to the plot. At some stage, Occam's Razor has to kick in - after all, we are talking about conspirators who couldn't even get the length of the paper bag right.

* The eminent physicist Luis Alvarez was credited as an author, thus giving this work an air of authority. Though he was a hugely respected authority on physics, he was not an acoustics expert.

Finally, the argument that shots weren't fired from the 'sniper's nest window' and that - presumably - planted witnesses were at hand to create this impression adds an unnecessary layer of complexity to the plot. At some stage, Occam's Razor has to kick in - after all, we are talking about conspirators who couldn't even get the length of the paper bag right.

Redfern, I'm no expert with acoustics. Not even close. So I'll take your word that the studies are as accurate as the subject matter allowed.

I hope you have not taken offence at what I've said. None was intended. 

It was aimed more so at the pattern which has emerged over the years where "experts" in the case present their findings on the more scientific evidence available and can never agree. The LN side push their case and the Cters the same.  In every case which I can recall there has been rightly or wrongly a chasm between the experts conclusions. Now I don't pretend this has not be done on purpose. Keeps the pot stirring to be sure. But I do think we are at the vortex, I think people in general have had enough of this repeating pattern regarding the more critical scientific evidence and it being abused in this way.

It's a shame because as you have said the acoustic study maybe of huge significance.

I think your last para is worh consideration. It is perplexing.

Occams Razor IMO is a bit of a myth. Simple is better Yes? In the aftermath of the assassination and the concotion of the patsy and his props along with his journeys someone had forgotten to tell the conductor what tune to play. Lol.

The crucial factor in the acoustics study is that the experts did agree. The real experts, that is. A second group was drafted in to verify the results obtained by the first and did essentially that.

Redfern, the difference between the two studies was not exactly inconsequential. The second found no fourth shot from the TSBD or anywhere else, thus negating the HSCA conclusion regarding a conspiracy. 

The Guardian newspaper carried an article this week in which a writer praised the William Manchester book. The online reply section was inundated with input which served only to demonstrate that the vast majority of people were very poorly informed and had swallowed the rubbish produced on US TV in the wake of the Oliver Stone film hook, line and sinker. The theory that a SS agent accidentally discharged his automatic rifle and inflicted the fatal shot was supported by many contributors. It should be emphasised that the Guardian is not a downmarket tabloid, but the premier left-leaning quality in the UK. (In fairness, a large number of contributors believed there was a conspiracy and a resultant cover-up, although in many instances the evidence cited represented the dodgiest claims by CTs - body alteration, film manipulation and so forth.)

I note the author is the Guarian theater critc.  Manchester's book is a treasure trove of trivia which kicks off with the false promise that his will be a totally impartial investigation. He then proceeds to call Oswald all the usual names "loser" "oddball" etc. One of the few pearls is that Frazier told him left the TSBD straight after the assassination. Why? Because he figured there'd be no more work that day. Now where have we heard that before? 

I still think it would be very useful to subject the later sections of the tape to forensic analysis. This could have a huge bearing on identifying whether any messages had been added or moved to a different time-frame or whether it is likely segments had been cut out altogether.

Absolutely it would be beneficial. Ideally, the more solid evidence of different types, the better. But if we can't do it, it's not the end. We will have enough without it. 

Finally, the argument that shots weren't fired from the 'sniper's nest window' and that - presumably - planted witnesses were at hand to create this impression adds an unnecessary layer of complexity to the plot. At some stage, Occam's Razor has to kick in - after all, we are talking about conspirators who couldn't even get the length of the paper bag right.

My long held contention is that the DPD and DAs had such a stranglehold on the justice system in Dallas, they had no need to be too careful in stitching anyone up. When you're not used to having to cross your t's and dot your I's, and you suddenly find you have to because the world is watching, you're apt to panic a little and make even more mistakes. Solution: (1) take the advice of the feds and back right off (it was the feds afterall, who destroyed Oswald's alibi by changing what he'd said. Fritz simply copied what they did). (2) make sure the case never makes it to trial.

Totally agree Greg, that book on Henry Wade;s Tough Justice is all the more telling, miscarriages of justice more than tenfold than the nation's average, go figure.

Fab book btw

http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Wades-Tough-Justice-Prosecutors/dp/1608447456

Redfern, the difference between the two studies was not exactly inconsequential. The second found no fourth shot from the TSBD or anywhere else, thus negating the HSCA conclusion regarding a conspiracy.

Hi Greg.

The first group (of Bolt, Baranek and Newman) led by Dr. Barger could only produce tentative results because of the nature of the data available. It said there was a 50% probability of there being a shot from the knoll. If valid, that would be the fourth shot (not in sequence).

The second group (Weiss and Aschkenasay) was drafted in to model the reflective surfaces in Dealey Plaza and thereby refine the original results by a process of trial and error involving the positions of the motorcycle and the sniper. They concluded that there was a 95% probability of a shot from the knoll, although they said this was the most conservative estimate. In other words, they believed it to be much closer to 100%.

Both groups backed each other and were in full agreement with the methods each used. This can be seen from transcripts of the inquiry sessions at the HSCA.

Don Thomas argues that a likely fifth shot was played down.