REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Beyond what we needed Bart! You continue to outdo yourself, if that is physically possible.
W.E. Barnett sinks it. 

Bob Jackson is telling stories or a liar take your pick, Mal is playing along or piling on.

Please add Bob Jackson to the PM book mailing list. 
I hope its the last thing that he reads.

Bart's post of the Barnett statement is high on the credibility scale. He's standing quite close to the TSBD and is well attuned to the importance of the status of the windows. Prior to the motorcade, he notes they were all closed due to the rain. Then he checks them again when shots are firing. Nobody. Nothing. Must be up on the roof says he. That is very convincing that there was nothing coming out of the window. If the gun barrel itself didn't catch his eye, the muzzle fire would have. Not to mention hearing the report at the same time. Nothing to see there.

Funny Truly stated that no one approached him about any security measures.....

Weisberg on Couch

and

Couch says the FBI erred in preparing his statement in saying he said there were 10 seconds between the shots. Couch said he had to time hie films to short periods and 10 seconds - "that's a long time". He says there 1s 5 seconds at the longest. Estimating the angle of the rifle when im saw it, he says, "Approximately a 450 degrees angle westward."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/P%20Disk/Pictures%20Dealey%20Plaza/Item%20115.pdf

Let's just speculate here

Perhaps the barrel was stuck out for a brief moment just to draw the attention, perhaps fire one shot as Jack D. said he had heard and him being on the 5th fl., just like Arnold Rowland's observation of the guy w the rifle standing there at 12:15, sightings purely to draw attention. No muzzle flash, no recoil only sightings.......

I think that someone was 'putting on a show' on the 6'th floor, possibly involving a rifle barrel or pipe being stuck out the window for a few seconds. This would be a diversionary tactic as the real shots most likely came from the upper floors/roof of the Dal-Tex. The bullet trajectories would be very similar to ones from the 'snipers nest'. Witnesses who saw the 'show' on the 6'th floor would mentally associate them with the noise of shots from the same general vicinity.

We do see Brennan looking up in the first Allen photo and Euins can be seen pointing towards towards the TSBD in Bell. Clearly something was going on up there. Besides witnesses on the ground and the dubious damage to the Hughes film, several prisoners on the upper floors of the County Jail supposedly saw two guys in the 'snipers nest' fiddling with a rifle scope.

Cowboy Man & the other guy looking up in Darnell/Couch are extremely hinky. If someone has a high-res copy of the Allen photo with CM standing on the TSBD steps, please tell me if you think he has a distinct chin-cleft. If so, I think that's possibly young Guillermo Novo, doing his best to draw attention to the 6'th floor.

If shots were fired from the TSBD, I might suggest they came from the western side of the building - out of the view of the majority of bystanders and close to the elevators. If this is the case, it might explain what some claim is damage to Moorman-3 in the area showing the west side of the TSBD and the missing (?) Moorman-4 photo. Or is this just Fetzer stuff?

Re: Jackson

If he saw a barrel as claimed, then he has the worst instincts in the history of photo-journalism. He should've jumped out of the car as soon as it slowed down, called in for backup and more film and glued himself to the TSBD. He had a historic scoop, but bails for Parkland? Ridiculous. At bare minimum he should've told a cop on the scene what he saw.

It pains me that this guy won a pulitzer for his pic of Ruby shooting Oswald. Maybe that was the 'carrot'? Talk about the rifle barrel & we'll make you a star. Stand here, wait for the car-honk, then take your photo.

If only poor Jack Beers had waited a few milliseconds. The pulitzer should've been his.

Where would we be without Harold Weisberg's archive....it just keeps on giving!!!

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/P%20Disk/Pictures%20Dealey%20Plaza/Item%20112.pdf

Even the Feds can see bugger all than just boxes in Hughes. 

This 17 min talk by David Wrone is pretty frigging good, he explains it nicely and one of his ending conclusions is......

''no shots were fired from the depository''

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4210331/david-wrone-fairy-tale-dallas

Do watch, anomaly after anomaly.

H&L CD

Those are some weird witnesses. None saw the same thing.

Try this on for size
jfk.hood.edu/Collection/.../W%20Disk/Witnesses/Item%2027.pdf

After the long list of NO ONE seeing a rifle fire, the moron Bethell says this,

"What convinces me more than anything that someone was probably shooting from the.

TSBD is the combined testimony of Jackson, Couch, Underwood, and Dillard. They all heard

Jackson exclaim "There is the gun", Couch saw it being withdrawn, and ,Dillard took a

picture as soon as he could although he was too late. If their story was made up at a

later date to fit the official version, then there is no explanation of why he

took the picture."

So it takes all four press agents combined to make a credible story, and yet no picture of any rifle or shooter in that window.
Plus the fact that a photographer takes a photo of the general area in front of him (the way he was facing) means very little. His job was to take photos. What else was he to do upon hearing a shot ahead of him? He sure as hell didn't capture anything in that photo and all other witnesses whom looked up say he is wrong. Hughes alone mocks these four and their 'story' which was likely made up with all due respect to the moron Tom Bethell.
Tom tries to salvage himself with the last paragraph where he says probably a rifle was "AIMED" out the window.
Gee Tom a few sentences ago you were convinced by four liars that a rifle fired from the SFW. What happened? Did you wise up or realize wool was meeting eyes?

What sells Tom? A picture of the assassin or of a building? They were trying to inject themselves into the mix and make a buck. Fuck Couch, Dillard, Underwood and especially the worst one Jackson.
They are buffoons and history is going to bury them.

Wait and see. Stay tuned

Ed Ledoux at September 26, 2015 at 3:46 AM

Those are some weird witnesses. None saw the same thing.

Try this on for size
jfk.hood.edu/Collection/.../W%20Disk/Witnesses/Item%2027.pdf

After the long list of NO ONE seeing a rifle fire, the moron Bethell says this,

"What convinces me more than anything that someone was probably shooting from the.

TSBD is the combined testimony of Jackson, Couch, Underwood, and Dillard. They all heard

Jackson exclaim "There is the gun", Couch saw it being withdrawn, and ,Dillard took a

picture as soon as he could although he was too late. If their story was made up at a

later date to fit the official version, then there is no explanation of why he

took the picture."

So it takes all four press agents combined to make a credible story, and yet no picture of any rifle or shooter in that window.
Plus the fact that a photographer takes a photo of the general area in front of him (the way he was facing) means very little. His job was to take photos. What else was he to do upon hearing a shot ahead of him? He sure as hell didn't capture anything in that photo and all other witnesses whom looked up say he is wrong. Hughes alone mocks these four and their 'story' which was likely made up with all due respect to the moron Tom Bethell.
Tom tries to salvage himself with the last paragraph where he says probably a rifle was "AIMED" out the window.
Gee Tom a few sentences ago you were convinced by four liars that a rifle fired from the SFW. What happened? Did you wise up or realize wool was meeting eyes?

What sells Tom? A picture of the assassin or of a building? They were trying to inject themselves into the mix and make a buck. Fuck Couch, Dillard, Underwood and especially the worst one Jackson.
They are buffoons and history is going to bury them.

Wait and see. Stay tuned

Agreed. after reading throught this, it becomes clear they told porky's and inserted themselves into the official theater. Shame on them.

They were charged with delivering the facts of a tragic event and failed miserably in their duties.

X-actly Mr. Purdy!
Four reporters making up a story which we know to be false.
Guess it'll be a long wait for them to prove their statements. (they should retract them)
Photographic and film evidence demonstrates that they were less than truthful.
Reject the injectors.
But like the Federal Government and the WC they leave their ass hanging in the wind for eternity.
I laugh at their bare arsed assertions.
Mick someone should let them know no one believes them anymore...and sole supporter Gary Mack is dead.
Poor bastards don't realize the jig is up.

It's time!

Is that headline too overstated or just an over used slogan.....it seems to fit

If Oswald was on the first floor, who was on the sixth floor?

I know of no proof that a shot came from the sixth floor.

Harold Weisberg interviewed by Barry Earnest in 1999

https://thegirlonthestairs.wordpress.com/interview/

Barto at September 29, 2015 at 2:53 AM

If Oswald was on the first floor, who was on the sixth floor?

 

I know of no proof that a shot came from the sixth floor.

Harold Weisberg interviewed by Barry Earnest in 1999

https://thegirlonthestairs.wordpress.com/interview/

Barto. I agree that no shots came from the sixth floor. However, could the person there have been the spotter or co-ordinator of the cross fire? 

The man seen on the third or fourth floor, originally, by Baker and Shelley?

Ray about this we could speculate till the cows come home, and honestly Duncan MacRae's forums are more suited for that, no disrespect to you intended.

It is still an enigma since no one saw any strangers and the Truly/Baker and Oswald meeting is a fugezi and whatever the first meet on the 3rd/4th fl entailed (and that meet DID happen) again we have no further details.

Maybe after Prayer Man some more docs come out and tell us more detail.......who knows. 

Barto at September 29, 2015 at 6:59 AM

Ray about this we could speculate till the cows come home, and honestly Duncan MacRae's forums are more suited for that, no disrespect to you intended.

It is still an enigma since no one saw any strangers and the Truly/Baker and Oswald meeting is a fugezi and whatever the first meet on the 3rd/4th fl entailed (and that meet DID happen) again we have no further details.

Maybe after Prayer Man some more docs come out and tell us more detail.......who knows. 

How about there were no genuine strangers but someone who was indeed a blue-collar TSBD worker and could also decouple himself from the assassination by claiming he wasn't present on November 22nd?

Both the Kaiser brothers fall into this category. In fact, Freddie was identified as Oswald when he applied for a job at a car-lot.

Would any of the office workers on the lower floors notice anything amiss with the presence of either?

Of course, those working under Shelley would become aware of any cover story but not immediately and they would hardly be likely to spill the beans after Oswald copped the blame.

This ticks a couple of boxes for me - the relative insouciance of the 6th floor figure, the difficulty of an escape for someone who didn't know the building inside out and the proximity of the sniper (yes, I still think he was) to Eddie Piper - I find it hard to accept that a stranger posing as a Secret Service agent would want company at that particular juncture.

Barto at September 29, 2015 at 6:59 AM

Ray about this we could speculate till the cows come home, and honestly Duncan MacRae's forums are more suited for that, no disrespect to you intended.

It is still an enigma since no one saw any strangers and the Truly/Baker and Oswald meeting is a fugezi and whatever the first meet on the 3rd/4th fl entailed (and that meet DID happen) again we have no further details.

Maybe after Prayer Man some more docs come out and tell us more detail.......who knows. 

Well, let's play out the tree of possibilites on that one, it's important to understand what's possible and what's not.

Regardless of whether there were any actual shots fired from the TSBD, it seems evident that there was at least one person on the 6th floor, and probably more than one. (As seen by Richard Randolph Carr who said he was wearing a "brown jacket" and the other who said it was a "brown shirt" or a "tan shirt"). And therefore all the classic problems of "the escape" are still there. How could the person or people have gotten away in under 90 seconds, considering Dougherty was right there, and the women on the 4th floor, and etc etc. So it seems to me, that the Carr story, more so than even the description of the second person, is important because it details the time frame for the escape of this person. 

This is one of the things that's always bothered me about the alleged 6th floor shooter, the escape time is too short. If as the evidence seems to indicate Marrion Baker was there on the first floor of the TSBD "within seconds", then we can sort of build a tree of possibilities, and the Carr story gives us an estimated time frame we can work with. So, in what follows, I'll use the word "shooter" with the understanding that it's the person or people who were seen on the 6th floor, regardless of whether he or they fired any actual shots.

So okay, first and most obvious is that the shooter escaped the same way Carr's story seems to indicate. Ran our the back of the TSBD, circled around to some kind of escape vehicle, etc.

However, there are a number of stories including the supposed "rearrangement" of the boxes some minutes after the shooting, and also Roger Craig's story about the man running down the hill from the TSBD and into the station wagon, that would seem to indicate that it's possible the shooter(s) "waited", they hung around for some time, and if that's the case....

Let's consider. Let's stipulate the shooter(s) hung around - or maybe at least one of them did - and in that case, it seems to me there were enough people milling around that someone would have seen something. So that means the shooter was somehow "recognizable", he fit in - either he was an employee (as suggested by the 3rd/4th floor Marrion Baker story), or he was perhaps a cop or some other uniformed or ID'd person that someone might have thought "belonged there" somehow.

After Marrion Baker though, there were other cops, and other uniformed and ID's personnel who entered the building. James Powell was among them, for instance. And, the rifle wasn't found till quite a while later, which means there was a considerable amount of time during which there were a lot of people milling around and an outsider would probably have had difficulty telling them apart.

Otherwise, the shooter would have left through the back of the TSBD by the loading dock (the front entrance being full of cops and such), and there were people back there too, for instance one of the negro employees was back by the dock for a while, I forget if it was Givens or Bonnie Ray Williams but one of them had circled around the building and re-entered through the back.

There [u]is[/u] the picture of the black men at the window and the eyewitness accounts of them pointing straight up towards the roof of the TSBD, just after the pigeons flew away. It seems there must have been some kind of noise from up there somewhere. It would be the same thing that caused people to run towards the knoll, right? Some gestalt as to where they thought the shot(s) came from, or some such thing. "Enough" people saw someone on the 6th floor, but there was no way they could have communicated with each other in real time, so everyone "else" that ran towards the TSBD had no idea these others had seen anything, all they "heard" was "shots".

Frankly, I'm more interested in the concept of the escape, rather than the question of the shots. The Carr story is one of two that provides us with a real clue, the other being Roger Craig's. Two eyewitnesses (plus the prisoners) say they saw [u]two[/u] people on the 6th floor, and Carr's escape person accounts for one of them, and Craig's escape person accounts for the other. Brown-suit-man is claimed to have been fiddling with the scope (presumably the same one that needed shimming, if you believe that), whereas the person dressed in light clothing is apparently the one that shows up in the film, standing right at the window - and this person is almost definitely "not Oswald", he's got a fat butt and he's about 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and considerably taller. But he does appear to be wearing white-to-light clothing, as per Brennan and all the other eyewitnesses. And, Oswald isn't Brown-Suit-man either, since he doesn't have a hat and doesn't wear horn rimmed glasses. It seems then, that neither one of the two people on the 6th floor were Oswald.... which just doubles and confounds the mystery.

The final branch on the tree, involves these two people working together, so for instance, one was the shooter and the other was the spotter. The shooter perhaps was Brown-Suit-man, which explains why he leaves first, he tosses the weapon to the spotter who then cleans up and throws down whatever he has to throw down, and then leaves the scene later and separately. Rings true, doesn't it? And, if the spooter were an employee, that person might be able to hang around "a little" longer, and leave "a little" less obtrusively, perhaps.

But... the moment I step back and look at this tree we've just built, the first thing that leaps out at me is that every single branch involves a stupendous amount of risk, and is highly susceptible to random events. The scene isn't as well controlled ("[u]apparently[/u]") as I might like an intelligence operation to be. Unless we start talking about the planting of witnesses and such, then we're in a whole different ball park... and... as far as I've gone in my thinking about what seems reasonable and likely, is the coercion of witness testimony by entities like the FBI. It doesn't make much sense to me that even military intelligence could "plant a witness" ahead of time, not when the level of uncertainty is so high. It would make a great deal more sense to try to control the actual events on the ground, that way whoever sees them can report the truth as they saw it, and they'll pass a polygraph and so on.

The second thing of immediate notice is that no one reports anything. If there were an oddball individual running around who wasn't supposed to be there, someone would have said something. But no one says [u]anything[/u], not Dougherty who was on the 5th floor, not the women who were on the 4th floor, .... If there really was a hit team on the 6th floor, then it makes sense the shooter would have left "immediately", just tossed the weapon to the spotter and skedaddled. And, apparently if this person left at this particular time, he didn't take the elevator but took the back stairs instead, which would have put him on the ground well before either the women [u]or[/u] Marrion Baker (he would have "just missed" Marrion Baker, by a matter of a few seconds maybe). Which leaves only the person who fit in (had to, to stay there that long), up on the 6th floor.

So, if you accept the witness testimony and the time frames therein, it would seem to indicate that Brown-Suit-Man is the shooter and the other person is the spotter (and throw-down artist) who stayed behind. Even this, though, would be a brazan plan. The idea that "even an employee" could stay behind in the Depository for any length of time, is very risky. And if I start thinking about risk mitigation, I quickly realize that the only way to really accomplish that is to start controlling the people. And it would probably be relatively easy to control a black ex-felon, and perhaps relatively easy to control the portion of the senior management that's "already on board", however it would be next to impossible to control a random set of employees in a minimum-wage operation where half the workers are temporary contractors who are being paid daily and paid by the hour. These are the types of jobs you get at Labor Ready and stuff like that, they're not exactly high skill positions, how hard can it be to read a list and fill an order? You have to be able to read, and you have to be able to concentrate, and that's it, nothing more is required. Therefore it seems to me that any control of the immediate environment would have had necessarily to be direct and crude and in-your-face to be effective. And there's no evidence for that, that I can find.... until the cops arrive at the scene.

Carr's story is not universally believed, even by CTs: 

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13705

Duke Lane also discovered that he seems to have lied about his US Army service.

Would Dougherty be likely to say anything if he was part of the plot?