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The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

 

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald on Nov 23rd. Click to enlarge.

 

Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.

A PDF of this summary can be downloaded from here.

By: Bart Kamp.

  • The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.
  • Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.
  • Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly in different locations. Pages 24-25.
  • Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.
  • In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.
  • Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.
  • Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps. Page 44.
  • Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th Page 74.
  • In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states they saw no one there” Page 46.
  • Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.
  • Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up as is stated. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.
  • Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.
  • Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.
  • Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.
  • Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.
  • Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th Pages 54 and 55.
  • Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.
  • Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.
  • While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.
  • Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.
  • Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.
  • The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.
  • The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.
  • During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.
  • The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.
  • Mrs Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.
  • Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.
  • Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.
  • Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony, he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.
  • The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B.D. much later.  Pages 112-113.
  • Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.
  • Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.
  • The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press on Nov 23rd is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
  • Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.
  • Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. In a new found document, a draft document by James Hosty, states that Oswald had a coke for his lunch and then went outside the watch the P. parade.  Pages 136-146.
  • The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening outside and inside the T.S.B.D.. Pages 147-159.

 

COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.

Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter V5 March 2019

Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter V5 March 2019.

 

It has been a year since my last update and in that year’s time I have been  handed a few key pieces of evidence that I have added to the first paper. I have added, edited and deleted text and some documents and a video.

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.

Marrion Baker sees Lee Oswald. Click to enlarge.

You can read and download the paper HERE.

Richard Gilbride refuses to learn

The most stubborn plonker in the village is at it again. Releasing a set of essays relating to the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. Obviously the wishful thinking and assumptions just pile up like there is no tomorrow. I already tore his previous work a new one, in short it was rubbish!

Let’s have a look at a few bits.

From the “Lunchroom” essay: Their paths should have intersected, but they didn’t. It is safe to conclude that Adams & Styles passed by Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom.

If Richard Gilbride had paid attention to the W.C. testimony of Roy Truly then he would have noticed that Roy Truly said that he leaned in, meaning his feet were still on the landing and that he peeked through, allegedly, while the door was held open! Furthermore has Gilbride ever paid attention to the size of the actual space between the landing and the lunch room door?

Second floor lunch room and corridor entry. Click to enlarge.

This is so small, no wonder Truly said he leaned in as it would have made no sense in a physical way for three people to stand there, even with Oswald being inside the lunch room for two or three feet, according to Baker.

Anything but with extraordinary confidence Richard!

2. On page 3 Richard Gilbride gives Adams 8 seconds to clear each floor going down (based on what?), whereas 5 would be more accurate, the amount of steps are not that many for anyone, whether in heels or not, to clear in 8 seconds unless they were doing it on one foot, they were rushing down those few stairs. That by itself proves to be already problematic for his timings overall.

On page 4 the first floor encounter is being described, the one that was attributed to Shelley and Lovelady and the girls, and which was false and made up by Jim Leavelle in Feb. 1964 when he interviewed Victoria Adams.

The man she and Styles encounter is in all likelihood Eddie Piper (“A tall black man”). Eddie Piper who stated during his W.C. in two sessions, as the first one did not nail things down enough to a satisfactory result for the W.C. Piper said during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the shooting already, and consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. 

Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” 

On page 5 Gilbride makes a catastrophic mistake by assuming Baker races up those stairs in the Couch and Darnell film. Not only does the Couch film swerve to the left and away far quicker to Elm St and not even capture the front stairs. The Darnell film in its final moment before swerving to the left shows Baker at best in front of the pavement which is at least 10 feet away from the bottom step of the TSBD steps. He assumes (which he does a little too often) that Baker is on course for the steps whereas nothing could be further removed from the truth. Marrion Baker is veering to the right and was on his way between the TSBD and the DalTex building as he was not certain where the shots had come from. His W.C. testimony shows clearly he was not certain at all where the shots came from.

Gilbride omits that Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor!

In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs as well.

On page 6 and 7 it turns into a shambles and Gilbride brings Dorothy Garner’s statement through the Stroud document in play in conjunction with the descent of Adams and Styles and the ascent of Baker and Truly. Since Gilbride is dead wrong with these 2 and 2 crossing each other on the second floor it can be stated with great certainty that his calculations are way off and simply not true again. 

“This heavy-duty door helped to muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet. Truly, Baker and Oswald were in an intense, confrontational situation just inside the lunchroom door frame. Even if they heard some noise from those high heels, it was only high heels- irrelevant to the gestalt- and they quickly forgot about it. ” This phrase on the bottom of page 7, in its entirety is baseless speculation. 

On page 8 the assumptions continue, but I cannot be bothered to dive into every cherry in this terrible piece. And furthermore Sean Murpy has left this ‘scene’ so he cannot defend his actions, I only defend mine. Only to mention that he mentions SS inspector Kelley being present at 16:45 at Oswald’s second interrogation which he was not, he did not arrive until hours later in the evening.

Enough on this one.

Finally what is objectionable is the lack of mentioning one foot note or source in this essay. This is something he lambasted me for, missing the odd bit. Yet here we have ten pages without one referral.

Nice work……..eh no.

**************************************************************************************************************************

From Furthering The Lunchroom Evidence, his latest attempt….

On page 1 Gilbride makes the mistake that Thomas Kelley was present during the interrogations with Oswald while Baker was there. This is wrong as Kelley did not appear until Oswald’s 3rd at just before 8 PM. Kelley said in his WC  testimony he arrived in the evening from Kentucky and not in the afternoon. Nor is Kelley listed as a participant of the 2nd  interrogation. Sorrels and Lawson were there though.

Nor was Hosty present, Hosty was only there during the first interrogation.

Then some of the sorriest speculations are drummed up for poor ol’ Marrion Baker that the reader ought to stop right there and then, and ask for a bucket.

“Baker’s train of thought interrupted- which led to a couple of vague descriptions in the affidavit when describing his location within the unfamiliar Book Depository. Baker was
suddenly immersed in a situation where any accusatory statements he made could be misinterpreted adversely, later in a legal setting. And he apparently reacted with police
discipline and remained quiet about what he recognized. The less said, the better. But he was quite mindful of this omission. And as soon as his affidavit was typed up he
brought it into Marvin Johnson’s office. And confided to Johnson that this suspect was the same guy he’d encountered down at the Depository. He’d even “started to search the man.”

I am actually accusing Gilbride of lying and this part by itself shows that Richard Gilbride has not learned one iota from his exercise over a year ago which I rightly nailed to the cross then. 

The BS continues with Baker recognising Oswald and exclaiming that he was the man encountered as such. There is no proof for this besides Johnson’s report, who even mentions that Baker frisked him which he did not, and that Baker picked him out in a line-up. Which he did not.

If Baker, as according to Johnson had recognised Oswald as that man encountered o the 3rd or 4th floor then this would have been brought up during those interrogation right there and then! And Oswald would have had a much harder time there and then, but no….the 2nd floor encounter did not become public near noon on the 23rd. At least after two more interrogations!!!!

The speculations continue  until the end of page 6 and it is quite painful how someone can actually write this stuff based on his own deluded assumptions which are nothing but a terrible hoax.

That Gilbride has made a pact with one of the worst internet deniers in this scene by the name of Brian Doyle is nothing short of a surprise, and he even brings up one of the worst interviews ever done by Brian Doyle and the grand kids of Sarah Stanton. This interview is known for Brian Doyle leading the ladies during this interview. Doyle also shoots himself in the foot with the hearsay answer that Sarah Stanton asked Oswald was going to go out for lunch and watch the parade and at that time was holding a soda. That is before lunch! Therefore killing of any lunch room encounter, any encounter with Mrs Robert Reid after the Baker & Truly encounter as well. Yet here is Richard Gilbride using this crap for his own benefit.

What Gilbride does very well is to leave the embarrassing part out of Brian Doyle making a complete mess of himself by trying to put Sarah Stanton in the position of Prayer Man wearing a wig for professional reasons, yes dear reader a real mind boggle. Wearing a wig for pro reasons……just so she can be seen as Prayer Man. 

The massive speculation by Gilbride and the lying by Brian Doyle at various points just to stitch his own version of the evidence together has turned this whole thing into a massive joke with these two disinfo clowns. 

New updates to 2nd floor encounter paper

A second update has been applied to the Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter paper. A mirror link of this paper is available at the Dealey Plaza UK Website. It has been made by Bernard Wilds. Many thanks Bernard!!!

I have added
 St. Louis Post Dispatch article from Nov.26 1963 added on page 8.
 Medicine Hat News newspaper article added to “Research history….” page 10.
 Link to newspaper article from The Houston Post (Nov. 23rd) with Billy Lovelady’s remarks added. Page 30.
 Norman Redlich memo (3 pages) discussing the elevators added to “The Stairs and The Elevators” chapter, pages 50-52. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for this!
 Text added to page 53, in the chapter “Did Truly Walk Ahead Of Baker”, with regards to the
Secret Service agents taking statements of the TSBD employees in early Dec. 1963.
 Also added in the re-enactment chapter I added an article by the Dallas Morning News on page 118.
 FBI re-enactment photo added, from Robin Unger, page 119.
 Document of Thomas J. Kelley added with regards to the Secret Service re-enactment on page 120.
 Set of FBI re-enactment photos added, which I managed to score at the Holland McCoombs collection. Added these, as they are rare and have not been seen before by many. Pages 122-126.
 Photo added of Marrion Baker alongside with fellow DPD officers and John Sherman
Cooper in Wa. Page 129.

 

Meme by Stan Dane.

kennedydsandking.com anatomy essay review

Last year at the JFK Lancer Conference in Dallas, Bart Kamp was awarded the New Frontier award. The citation stated that his work in reexamining the second floor encounter of Oswald with Texas School Book Depository foreman Roy Truly and motorcycle officer Marrion Baker utilized “a broad array of new data, including documents and statements of the participants and a variety of TSBD witnesses.” We agreed with this award and the description of the achievement. The second floor lunch encounter is a thread-worn shibboleth of the Warren Report that – like Oswald’s mail order rifle – the first generation of critics simply passed on; the notable exception being Harold Weisberg in his book Whitewash II. In Reclaiming Parkland, I began to question it, largely based on Marrion Baker’s first day affidavit, where the officer does not even mention the episode – or Oswald or Truly.  Even though, as he wrote the affidavit, Oswald was sitting across from him in the rather small witness room. In other words, after he had just stuck a gun in his stomach, Baker didn’t recognize him.

But Bart Kamp goes much further than that in his analysis. We are presenting a small part of that long essay here, with a link to the longer version at the admirable group Dealey Plaza UK. The new revised version of the essay, from which this part is adapted, will be posted there soon and we will link to it then. This is the kind of work, daring and original, questioning accepted paradigms with new and provocative evidence, that KennedysandKing.com stands for.

~ Jim DiEugenio

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunchroom-encounter-excerpts

Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter.

Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter.

 

Last updated Sept 9th 2017

This essay got too big for its own good, more than 23,000 words which resulted in the blog software unable to cope and ended up crashing numerous times.

Thanks to Bernard Wilds webmaster of DPUK we now have a PDF of the Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter available, at 134 pages a light read ;)

Update Dec 6th 2016: this article has been awarded the Mary Ferrell and JFK Lancer New Frontier Award in late November.

 

Credit: Stan Dane.

Credit: Stan Dane.

Credit: Stan Dane.