REOPEN KENNEDY CASE

Have posted this to FB without much success so far...

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Question to all with any military background or knowledge:

LHO's attempt to join the Marines at 16... I know such things were not uncommon in WWI and II... but not as common in peace-time...regardless of how common... in an an imagined perfect world where policies, rules and laws are strictly applied..

1. is/was it an illegal action to try and get in underage? and if so...

2. Should it have been declared in his later sign up (there is a question in all the sign up paperwork about ever being rejected in the past)?

3. Despite his not declariing it, should it have been picked up in the screening process at his later attempt?

4. Was not declaring it, itself an illegal act of omission?

5. Should he have faced any legal sanction for the omission?

6. Assuming mail to the SP was being monitored, should his letter to them just prior to joining up, have barred him from service, even tho the SP was not on the Attorney General's list?

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am trying to understand his actions in terms of both potential legal ramifications, as well as ability to join the Marines. Are there any real issues with the presented Oswald history on any of this? Could anyone just make a false claim to enter the military - have that false claim discovered, then later write a letter to the Socialist Party (assuming such a letter would have been "noticed"), and after all of that, just skate through unquestioned into the Marines? If others could do it, then I have no problem with Oswald having done it... but I don't know, and am having a lot of difficulty trying to find anyone who can give some clear cut answers...

Eight years in US Navy but I have no knowledge here, just a response.

The Navy was very picky when I joined in 1973. To be accepted into the Naval Nuclear Power Program, not only did I have to pass a battery of written tests, I had a thorough background check too. (My offense of getting a ticket in 1971 for having a "faulty muffler" on my car is listed on my background check.) I'm not sure if other programs/branches of the service were as picky, but I got to believe that any program that required a security clearance (mine was Secret, Oswald's was Top Secret, as I recall) got looked at very closely and rules and protocols just didn't get sloughed off. Especially trying to enter underage. But then, I just don't know for sure.

You raise very good questions here, Greg.

Would trying to enlist at an early age be a "black mark"? Wouldn't that make them more anxious to sign him up? Maybe they kept his address and even told a recruiter to call on him in a couple of years.

It brings to mind that scene in "Alice's Restaurant" when Arlo was jumping up and down screaming "I want to kill!" and they replied "You're our guy."

But they are very good questions.

Terry Martin at January 20, 2015 at 9:03 PM

Would trying to enlist at an early age be a "black mark"? Wouldn't that make them more anxious to sign him up? Maybe they kept his address and even told a recruiter to call on him in a couple of years.

It brings to mind that scene in "Alice's Restaurant" when Arlo was jumping up and down screaming "I want to kill!" and they replied "You're our guy."

But they are very good questions.

You can go to the Group W Bench.

Stan Dane at January 20, 2015 at 8:34 PM

Eight years in US Navy but I have no knowledge here, just a response.

 

The Navy was very picky when I joined in 1973. To be accepted into the Naval Nuclear Power Program, not only did I have to pass a battery of written tests, I had a thorough background check too. (My offense of getting a ticket in 1971 for having a "faulty muffler" on my car is listed on my background check.) I'm not sure if other programs/branches of the service were as picky, but I got to believe that any program that required a security clearance (mine was Secret, Oswald's was Top Secret, as I recall) got looked at very closely and rules and protocols just didn't get sloughed off. Especially trying to enter underage. But then, I just don't know for sure.

 

You raise very good questions here, Greg.

 

 

After posting here, I started getting multiple responses from various FB groups. All but one person suggested they would slough it off. The one who said otherwise was the beautiful, exotic creature known as Linda Belcher.... who unbeknownst to me is a member of another group I'm in.

Here is some info some one else linked to

An astounding number of American teenagers, both male and female, altered their birth dates in order to serve their country during World War Two. The practice reached its peak in 1943. Over time, nearly 50,000 were detected and sent home. Among the many who eventually managed to enlist, a handful was discovered – court martialled – and then stripped of any valor awards they might have earned. But the great majority – some 200,000 — went unnoticed and served honorably for the duration. Among those sworn in was Walter Holy (rhymes with ‘moly,’ as in ‘holy moly’). Walter and his wife Frances reside in Vancouver, Washington, just over the Columbia River from Portland. There’s a possibility that Walt’s combat boots are still stashed in the hall closet, just in case. What might Walter be thinking? If you’re never too young, then you’re also never too old…? - See more at: http://www.americanveteranscenter.org/2012/02/veterans-of-underage-military-service/#sthash.bJQBpFUf.dpuf

Either way, there are issues. If it was easy to get away with and everyone did it, why didn't LHO get away with it? 

There is also the issue of his criminal record in NYC (truancy being a crime) http://reentry.mplp.org/reentry/index.php/United_States_Navy_and_Marine_Corps_Criminal_History_Disqualifications

This was not disclosed on his enlistment forms, nor was his previous failed attempt - despite that being one of the questions. The enlistment form also asks about membership in communist organizations... but I will need to go find it to see the exact wording -- whatever, the answer may well have been "no" - and his letter to the SP may not be relevant because it was not on any lists... but still... 

My STATEMENT OF PERSONAL HISTORY form [DD Form 398, 1 Mar 64  (replaces edition of 1 May 55 which may be used)], Section 17 asks the following Yes/No questions (all words in caps):

- ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY U. S. A., OR ANY COMMUNIST PARTY ANYWHERE?

- ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF A FASCIST ORGANIZATION?

- ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF ANY ORGANIZATION, ASSOCIATION, MOVEMENT, GROUP OR COMBINATION OF PERSONS WHICH ADVOCATES THE OVERTHROW OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FORM OF GOVERNMENT, OR WHICH HAS ADOPTED THE POLICY OF ADVOCATING OR APPROVING THE COMMISSION OF ACTS OF FORCE OR VIOLENCE TO DENY OTHER PERSONS THEIR RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, OR WHICH SEEKS TO ALTER THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES BY UNCONSTITUTIONAL MEANS?

- ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN AFFILIATED OR ASSOCIATED WITH ANY ORGANIZATION OF THE TYPE DESCRIBED ABOVE AS AN AGENT, OFFICIAL, OR EMPLOYEE?

- ARE YOU NOW ASSOCIATING WITH, OR HAVE YOU ASSOCIATED WITH ANY INDIVIDUALS, INCLUDING RELATIVES, WHO YOU KNOW OR HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE, ARE OR HAVE BEEN MEMBERS OF ANY OF THE ORGANIZATIONS IDENTIFIED ABOVE?

- HAVE YOU EVER ENGAGED IN ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ACTIVITIES OF ANY ORGANIZATION OF THE TYPE DESCRIBED ABOVE: CONTRIBUTION(S) TO, ATTENDANCE AT OR PARTICIPATION IN ANY ORGANIZATIONAL, SOCIAL, OR OTHER ACTIVITIES OF SAID ORGANIZATIONS OR ANY PROJECTS SPONSORED BY THEM: THE SALE, GIFT, OR DISTRIBUTION OF ANY WRITTEN, PRINTED OR OTHER MATTER, PREPARED, REPRODUCED, OR PUBLISHED, BY THEM OR ANY OF THEIR AGENTS OR INSTRUMENTALITIES?

IF "YES," DESCRIBE THE CIRCUMSTANCES. ATTACH ADDITIONAL SHEETS FOR A FULL DETAILED STATEMENT. IF ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OF THE ABOVE ORGANIZATIONS, SPECIFY NATURE AND EXTENT OF THE ASSOCIATION WITH EACH, INCLUDING OFFICE OR POSITION HELD. ALSO INCLUDE DATES, PLACES, AND CREDENTIALS NOW OR FORMALLY HELD. IF ASSOCIATIONS HAVE BEEN WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE MEMBERS OF THE ABOVE ORGANIZATIONS, THEN LIST THE INDIVIDUALS AND THE ORGANIZATIONS WITH WHICH THEY WERE OR ARE AFFILIATED.

I found a copy of the earlier 1 May 55 version of the DD Form 398 on ancestry.com, each of the four pages as a separate image. I cropped the relevant portion on page 3 of the form:

Since Oswald joined the Marines in 1956, this would have been the form in use then. The wording looks almost identical to the later 1964 form that I used.

If you would like the entire four page (four images) document, Greg, let me know and I'll email them to you.

Wondefull stuff!

I only just located Lee's enlistment papers... bit hard to read, but not impossible...

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=779

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=780

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=781

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=782

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=783

There are lies all over these forms.

Ever been rejected before... no

Ever committed a crime before... no

Ever been arrested... no

Ever been on probation... no 

Its Congress that sets the mimimum ages (17 with parental consent, 18 without), not the military recruiters. Seeing as thousands of men actively evaded conscritption even during the peacetime 1950s, I rather doubt the Marine Corps would scorn an eager beaver who tries to volunteer for service before Congress says he's eliglble. Hell, he probably got credit for his enthusiasm once he was allowed to enlist.

Beowulf at January 21, 2015 at 4:29 PM

Its Congress that sets the mimimum ages (17 with parental consent, 18 without), not the military recruiters. Seeing as thousands of men actively evaded conscritption even during the peacetime 1950s, I rather doubt the Marine Corps would scorn an eager beaver who tries to volunteer for service before Congress says he's eliglble. Hell, he probably got credit for his enthusiasm once he was allowed to enlist.

I agree completely. Didn't recruiters have quotas or something to meet?

I can easily see the command structure winking and looking the other way especially for an eager recruit.

Terry Martin at January 21, 2015 at 5:34 PM

Beowulf at January 21, 2015 at 4:29 PM

Its Congress that sets the mimimum ages (17 with parental consent, 18 without), not the military recruiters. Seeing as thousands of men actively evaded conscritption even during the peacetime 1950s, I rather doubt the Marine Corps would scorn an eager beaver who tries to volunteer for service before Congress says he's eliglble. Hell, he probably got credit for his enthusiasm once he was allowed to enlist.

I agree completely. Didn't recruiters have quotas or something to meet?

I can easily see the command structure winking and looking the other way especially for an eager recruit.

All well and good guys...but then why didn't turn the other way for his underage attempt?

I am leaning now toward believing the sole purpose of it was to create a record of a failed attempt... a test maybe to see if the recruiters at his real attempt would pick it up (and/or any of the other lies).

If you look, you'll see the recruiter ticked that he made his assessment of suitability from interviewing Lee and from "reports from civil authorities". Either the latter was a lie, or it was incompetent.

While recruiters were under pressure to get numbers at various times - that was not ALWAYS the case. There were various times when there were fairly big DELIBERATE reductions in human resources for the military. 

President Barack Obama’s decision in June 2011 to begin the withdrawal of U.S. combat forces from Afghanistan set in motion the first significant reduction in the size of the U.S. military since the 9/11 attacks.1 This will be the latest in a long history of drawdowns, going back to the American Revolution, which have restructured, repositioned and reduced U.S. military forces after each major conflict.

http://www.cnas.org/sites/default/files/publications-pdf/CNAS_RightSizingTheForce_Rostker_0.pdf

A significant portion of his (Lee's) sign up was taken up by the Code of Conduct/Loyalty stuff that came out of the Korean War POW kerfuffle. Again, although recruiter's may have just wanted to fill quotas... some in politics were determined to ensure that potential turncoats were kept out. In that light, testing recruiters in some way with sting operations doesn't seem all that far fetched to me.

I will post what i have written so far on this issue in the Members Only section for any comment. 

I know about the downsizing. My Dad was in the Navy, enlisted in 1948 for a four-year hitch and was released, honorably discharged in January 1950. Apparently with the withdrawal of the last US troops from South Korea, they thought they wouldn't need as many soldiers, or sailors.

By the time the Korean War started in mid-1950 Dad was already in college on the G.I.Bill.

This sounds like another thrilling episode in the rather unusual life of Oswald. I can hardly wait for the book!

Terry Martin at January 21, 2015 at 8:45 PM

I know about the downsizing. My Dad was in the Navy, enlisted in 1948 for a four-year hitch and was released, honorably discharged in January 1950. Apparently with the withdrawal of the last US troops from South Korea, they thought they wouldn't need as many soldiers, or sailors.

By the time the Korean War started in mid-1950 Dad was already in college on the G.I.Bill.

This sounds like another thrilling episode in the rather unusual life of Oswald. I can hardly wait for the book!

From all accounts, your dad probably had a luck on his side.

Lee also had intermittent hearing loss - it is noted in school records and Youth House. He was even treated for otitis media in the Marines - a condition that was the root cause of his hearing loss. He didn't declare that either, at enlistment. It probably stops him getting into radar school if he did declare it.

I'm just assuming here but I guess that they would over look age to enlist but once he went for top secret clerance they would have looked into his background. I cant imagine Lee being given top secret clerance with all his pro communist shenanigans going on. All very obvious but I'm posting it anyway.

The WR accounts

Despite this apparent interest in communism, Oswald tried to join the Marines when he was 16 years old.101 This was 1 year before his actual enlistment and just a little over 2.5 years after he left New York. He wrote a note in his mother's name to school authorities in New Orleans saying that he was leaving school because he and his mother were moving to San Diego. In fact, he had quit school in an attempt to obtain his mother's assistance to join the Marines.102 While he apparently was able to induce his mother to make a false statement about his age he was nevertheless unable to convince the proper authorities that he was really 17 years old.103 There is evidence that Oswald was greatly influenced in his decision to join the Marines by the fact that his brother Robert had done so approximately 3 years before.What about Pic joining up with the Coast Guard at 16 as an influence? 104 Robert Oswald had given his Marine Corps manual to his brother Lee, who studied it during the year following his unsuccessful attempt to enlist until "He knew it by heart." 105 According to Marguerite Oswald, "Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the Marines--that whole year." 106 In John Pic's view, Oswald was motivated to join the Marines in large part by a desire "to get from out and under ... the yoke of oppression from my mother." 107 And what reason did Pic give for his own early enlistment?


He dropped out of school a few days later, shortly before his 16th birthday.277 After his birthday, he tried to enlist in the Marines, using a false affidavit from his mother that he was 17.278 (Some years before, John Pic had joined the Marine Corps Reserve by means of his mother's false affidavit that he was 17.) 279

Mr. JENNER - My information is you were born in New Orleans on January 17, 1932?

Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9.

Mr. PIC - We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.

In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. So--

Mr. JENNER - Did you get paid for this service?

Mr. PIC - Yes. sir we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.

Mr. JENNER - But you were not in fact 17?

Mr. PIC - No. sir: I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. PIC - OK so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October 1948. I was attached to the 2d l55th Military Howitzer Battalion, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, I was going to go back to school So in January 1949 I went back to school and finished my high, school education.....

......So right after the Christmas holidays 1949, I was coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I quit school and joined the Coast Guard.

At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it.

So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, and left for Cape May, N.J.

Here we see Pic had no troubles from his early "join-up."

Was the coast guard hard to get into because of the wait time or they more carefully checked its applicants records for disqualifiers such as previously Lying to them about their age? Sorry leading question...

Liked how the Off The Record discussion came about.

As far as Oswald being charged or disiplined for wrongly filling out forms etc, I would say the USMC would not accept a felon. The things Lee supposedly did were not of that magnitude. USMC would overlook a previous attempt by parents to get child into service early as applicant was underage and is actually not responsible, the parent would be resonsible. Technically speaking. 

Thanks to all for the responses... to try and address some issues...

The difference between Pic and Lee is that Marguerite made a false declaration about Pic's age in front of a notary public.  It worked. That was to join the Marine Reserves. Marguerite apparently thought it was a good idea because he could supplement the family income. According to Pic, he was paid the princely sum of $3.00 a month to attend meetings. Let's partyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

This was yet another example of Marguerite treating John and/or Robert completely differently to Lee. While Lee was growing up, she had no hesitation in uprooting him from one school and moving again and again. Yest she had put herself out on another occasion so Robert and John could finish the school year at the military academy.

With Lee, Marguerite was resistant, and then when she did give in, instead of signing a false declaration, she obtained a copy of his birth certificate. I assume it was sealed when given to Lee, otherwise... wel, I'm not sure why he'd bother submitting it if he knew it showed he was 16.  

Whatever the case, he was rejected and he later falsely claimed he never had been. Again - apparently no biggie...

However, he also falsely claimed no hearing problems.

And that he had no association with or sympathy for, any of the organizations listed. His self-proclaimed sympathy for Marxism, by his own admission, was 15 months old at that time, and he had only a couple of weeks prior to joining, inquired about a socialist youth group. The group was not on the list, but only because it had been disafilliated by the SPA and had united with a youth group which WAS on the list.   

Edit to add.. the letter to the SPA inquiring about the YPSL could almost be construed as a provocation. As indicated above, the YPSL was disafiliated by the parent party - for associating with the youth group of a splinter party. After the parting of the ways, the YPSL and the YSL combined to form the SYL (you need look no further for Monty Python's inspiration). Bottom line, enquiring with the SPA about joining the YPSL in 1956 would have been akin to waving a red rag at a bull.  The question is, did Oswald know? I think he had to...  

"Was the coast guard hard to get into because of the wait time or they more carefully checked its applicants records for disqualifiers such as previously Lying to them about their age? Sorry leading question..."

While there was conscription here, the Coast Guard (which, after all, never ventured that far from America's coastline) was a popular escape hatch from Army service. I imagine its recruiters could be picky.

Yes Coast Guard I've heard does like to be selective yet will take troubled youth whom have come close to being felons and allows them few years away from those troubles.
Now to join the Marine Corp Reserve you have to take the same Marine Corps basic, and infantry training as you would to join the Active Duty Marines. No special treatment for MCR, same health and records checks as regular service. There is nothing lesser about being in the MCR except you have a civilian job and only kill people one weekend a month.

Greg that would be an exercise, waving a red flag at a bull. You would soon know how much waving it takes to stir the bull. Who was running that exercise? Lee himself?

"With Lee, Marguerite was resistant, and then when she did give in, instead of signing a false declaration, she obtained a copy of his birth certificate. I assume it was sealed when given to Lee, otherwise... wel, I'm not sure why he'd bother submitting it if he knew it showed he was 16."

Yes you must submit an original birth certificate. They want The Original! No copies, no certified copies, they want an original. O'bama could never have served in the Marine Corps yet he is the Commander in Chief, go figure...No BC no MC. But yes most times you can send them the sealed envelope directly from Health Records Dept in state you were born. If you submit a falsified document I can see a visit from the FBI in your future rather than making a false statement before a notary.
Notary Police rarely show themselves.
I'm assuming someone has seen the questioned Birth Certificate with modifications, yes?